Timewaster's Guide Archive
General => Everything Else => Topic started by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on June 07, 2004, 11:08:08 AM
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I've got 8 Jedi and 7 ninja figures on the 3.75" scale. Of course, two of the Ninja are Scarlett, and one of the Jedi is actually a Sith, but still. I need another ninja, I think, to even the odds. Then I can set up a battle royale.
So... who would win? Assuming that the ninja swords could block the lightsabers without being cut in half. Snake Eyes, Stormshadow, and crew? Or the lean mean, Qui-Gon/Mace led machine?
Oh, and you have to say WHY, or your post will suck
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In a battle between Jedi and Ninja, uncertain the outcome is. Strong are they in the dark side. Focus the Jedi must. Lightning they will throw and charbroiled the Ninja will be. That is the way of the force.
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Well, to answer your question I would need to compare and contrast the two opposing forces.
Ninja- Fast
Strong
Crafty
High Reflexes
Battle Trained
Ninja stars
Intelligent (in general)
The Jedi have all these qualities and they can use the force to both predict the immediate future AND force push anything from their opponents to their opponents ninja stars, deflecting them. Also they could move their surroundings to obstruct the ninjas' paths. I think that because of their obvious advantage of the Force the Jedi would conquer.
And just to stop the question in it's tracks Ninja would without a doubt beat pirates, bears, sharks and canadians.
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Depends.
Can the ninjas sneak in and kill the Jedi in their sleep? That is, after all, generally how assassins do things. Only a foolish ninja lets himself get caught in a head-on fight with an opponent. It's all about the planning.
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No, they cannot. This is soley because of a trained Jedi's ability to sense disturbances and wake up if danger approaches. In any situation the Jedi gets the upper hand due to his/her ability to sense danger and avoid it. The force gives the trained Jedi a large supioriority.
Now if they were padawans it would be a whole different story...
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The real question is, can any of those defeat me?
The answer is no.
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The Jedi have the advantage, simply through the force, unless you take into account the possibility of ninja magic. In that case the Ninjas could, like, self destruct taking out the Jedi and then reform afterwards.
Like in Shinobi.
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While all shinobi games are great and ninja magic is a possibility, a jedi can neutralize the blast by deflecting it with the force.
Since magic must be affected by matter, or it wouldn't hurt the Jedi and have any affect on their bodies, a lightsaber made of plasma could technically deflect the blast, as plasma is a form of matter. And since the force can effect that which seems to effect matter the force by itself could, on a theoretical account, deflect the dangerous blast of magic back at the sender making them the reciever causing more damage to the ninja than to the Jedi.
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No, dude:
I'm not talking about a little bit of pushing around here. I'm talking about MASSIVE EXPLOSIONS from the ninja magic. The force CANNOT block this stuff. Blaster fire, sure. Not nine self destructing Ninjas standing on all sides. I mean, the whole building would come down on their heads, they'd have their hands full using force levitate to not be crushed.
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Well then, it all really depends on three factors.
1) How trained are the ninja. I mean, are they shinobi or are they ninja or are the padawan ninja, still learning the basics of ninjitsu?
2) How trained are the Jedi. Are they Yoda good, are they coucil good, are the medicre average, are they new Jedi or are the Padawans?
3) If a Jedi were to use the force to contain a Ninja with the Force, would they still be able to use self destructing ninja magic?
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This is soley because of a trained Jedi's ability to sense disturbances and wake up if danger approaches.
I'm not convinced that the Jedi could sense danger if they were sleeping, but you're right--it would be pretty hard to ambush them. That puts the ninjas at a disadvantage, I'd say.
The big problem with "Jedi vs Ninjas" is that 'ninja' is such a broad term, while Jedi is a fairly well-defined, single-system organization. You'd have to narrow it down to a specific genre of ninja in order for us to really decide.
In other news, I think this is the nerdiest conversation we've had in a LONG time. I'm not sure what to think of that.
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I think unless you are fighting supremely trained shinobi warriors the Jedi would have too much of an advantage for it to be a fair fight.
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From what SE has posted, these appear to be GI Joe ninjas. GI Joe ninjas, while neat, just aren't that tough. So I would have to vote for the Jedi.
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Yeah. if they were Koga Ninja it would be a different matter.
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Here's the ninjas:
Storm Shadow
Snake Eyes (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005BGCB.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
Scarlett (http://www.timelesstrinkets.com/GIJoe/Images/GIScarlettV1.jpg) (80's, butch)
Scarlett (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000AOTLJ.01.PT02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) (21st century, sexy)
Kamakura (http://www.yojoe.com/magazine/03/kamakura/kamakura.jpg)
Jinx (http://www.lorenjavier.com/toychest/asian/images/jinx.gif)
Night Creeper (http://afigures.com/g/generated/GIJoe/wave7/100_1872__scaled_800.jpg)
Here are the Jedi:
Yoda (http://images.hasbro.com/common/images/products/84828_imageMain400.jpg) (Clone Wars)
Luke Skywalker (RotJ)
Mace Windu (http://images.hasbro.com/common/images/products/84515_imageMain400.jpg) (AotC)
Darth Maul (http://images.hasbro.com/common/images/products/85090_imageMain400.jpg)
Quigon Jinn (http://images.hasbro.com/common/images/products/84801_imageMain400.jpg)
Anakin Skywalker (http://images.hasbro.com/common/images/products/84814_imageMain400.jpg) (Clone Wars)
Aayla Secura (http://images.hasbro.com/common/images/products/85015_imageMain400.jpg)
Barriss Offee (http://411mania.com/figures/images/starwars/barrissoffee2003.jpg)
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see, here's the thing.
Ninjas sneak. It's what they do. And Jedi precognition is weak. There's no evidence that it works while they sleep either. I think ninja could get around the precognition.
If a Trade Federation battle droid can kill a Jedi, a ninja sure as heck can.
And, to disagree. Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow are NOT weak ninja. They're like, the pinnacle of ninja-ness.
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I don't know, Jedi sense life-forms. Droids aren't life-froms, but ninjas are. So yes, ninja can sneak, but I think the Jedi would still sense them, unless they are robot ninjas.
And I would have to say that Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow are weak. Have you seen the old GI Joe cartoons recently? Neither Snake Eyes or Storm Shadow have actually killed anything. Heck, I don't think they can actually hit anything. They're wussier than Storm Troopers.
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i'm gonig to have to go back to the ninja magic thing. It's more than blowing things up., It's an aid to sneaking
GI Joe cartoons don't count. Comics count more. Reputation counts for everything.
Anything a gungun can take out is nothing to be proud of having killed you. seriously. If there's anything AotC teaches us, it's that Jedi are hardly immortal. I think it's a longer battle than you think, even if the Jedi do win in the end.
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Reputation counts for everything.
I'm afraid the GI Joe cartoon has ruined the reputation of GI Joe ninjas forever. They sold out to the man.
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I'll have to agree there.
Though, Morag has this theory about SF/F movies. It goes something along the lines of "He with the least-technologically powerful weapon wins." (Note--this only applies to heroes and villains, not random grunts.)
That's why the guy with the sword always takes down the guy with the gun--and, if you're in a tank, NEVER try to take out the hand-to-hand martial artist. Go looking for a battleship or something, 'cuz that's the only thing you're going to be able to beat.
So, if the ninjas put away their swords and attacked the Jedi hand-to-hand, the laws of coolness would declare that the Jedi would have to lose their lightsabers somehow. THEN the ninjas would be able to take them down.
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well, by that theory, the ninjas wouldn't even have to put down their weapons. As coool metalurgically a sword made of a steal alloy folded a thousand times is, it's hardly at the same tech level as a light saber.
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But if they put use their ninja swords, then don't they fall prey to Ewoks with rock and sticks.
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yes, they would. But as this is only Ninja and Jedi, they dont' factor in.
Until the sequel.
Then we'll have an argument about whether Gunguns or Ewoks are more primitive.
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By the way, what is Scarlet doing with the ninjas? I seem to recall her being an archer in the original Joe, and in the new version you have a picture of her with a really big gun. Hardly ninja-like.
Oh, and I have to disagree on the lightsabers. They don't count as 'technological weapons,' they just count as 'really cool swords.' And, a really cool sword beats a regular old sword.
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Scarlett has appeared as a figure in many of the "ninja packs" and her data card describes her as a master of several martial arts. Even the old one.
Snake Eyes has always carried several weapons, so ninjas and guns are not inconsistant.
And you're just plain wrong with lightsabers. While they're really cool swords, what makes them cool is their technological basis. Lightsabers definitely out-tech katanas.
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Nah. Lighsaber 'tech' is like midiclorians. They're magic swords that Lucas wants to pretend aren't magical.
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not at all. The handle has always been electronics. Even if it is a "magic sword," the magic relies on an underpinning of electronics, which alone out-techs a standard sword.
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You're forgetting the standard 'If it's magical, it doesn't count as more technological than a regular equivalent' rule. You could argue that other magical swords are just more 'technologically developed' than regular weapons. It doesn't stand. A lightsaber trumps a regular sword.
Now, however, if the guy you're fighting with the lightsaber only has a DAGGER--well, watch out. He'll take you down with that. If he has a bazooka or an at-at, it's not a problem--you can take those down without a problem. But if he has a dagger (or, in Episode Two terms, a little wire thing that shoots from his hand) you're in deep trouble.
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but that argument doesn't work. I was about to argue that a magic sword IS more technologically developed than a standard one. Non-magic wins over magic according to the low-tech rule. It's the underdevelopment, not the scientific nature. Besides, my point is that the lightsaber may be magic, but it's magic CIRCUITS, made to simulate a sword. Circuits are higher tech than swords. The fact that the lightsaber should "trump" a normal sword is in fact an argument for the ninjas, since it's the underdevelopment that wins.
Beides, the jedi have more gear too. Luke has a blaster (a clear tech development over anything the ninjas have, even with their big automatic weapons), Anakin has a portable long range, voice activated communicator. Darth Maul has his repulsorlift bike and those spy drones. Even Yoda has a repulsorlift ride.
Looks like the Jedi are going down. Even if only those individuals go down, takes out half the jedi already. Then the Ninjas have numerical superiority.
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Course, a katana is actually quite the piece of technology. There is a lot of science that goes into crafting one of those things.
And technically, the katana didn't come around until 700 a.d. Well after the invention of the light saber which appeared long ago in a galaxy far, far away. SO it could be argued that the ninjas have the more technologically adavanced weaponry.
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This whole the more technologically advanced you are argument cannot be used in this scenerio because we are not talking about normal ninja katana.
SE clearly stated that the katana can block lightsabers, in an attempt to even the sides. So it is obvious that the ninja katana count as lightsabers because the only thing that can block a lightsaber is something made out of the same energy.
Also, while this argument might be good in sci-fi movies, we are, according to SE, talking about the good GI Joe ninja. The ones from the comics. And I can think of many circumstances where the more technological person didn't win in a comic book.
So here we are applying a rule that cannot be applied, and therefor any argument for ninja based around this rule should be instantly disqualified.
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42: Later dates do not mean, or even imply, superior technology.
Gorgon, you clearly do not understand how these arguments work.
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I'm sorry I must have misunderstood something, what excactly was wrong with my argument? So I don't do it again.
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mostly it made sense.
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Agreed! Well put, SE.
Back to the argument at hand, I still maintain that magic swords are an exception to the underdevelopment rule, and maintain that lightsabers fit under this amnesty. However, you make a very good point that most of the Jedi rely on a lot of other techno gizmos.
Therefore, here's what I think will happen: the Jedi start off confident, and mow through hoards of lesser ninjas (who haven't yet been figured into this equation--but they have to exist. I mean, what's a good battle without hundreds of lesser minions to defeat?)
Then, however, they will start to rely too much on their gadgets, and the ninjas will take them out one at a time. In the end, only one Jedi will be left (I vote Mace Windu), and he'll weaponless and beaten down. He'll grow 'indignant' (Jedi don't get angry) over the deaths of his comrades, and pick up a discarded lightsaber he finds somewhere, then proceed to lay righteous smack down on the rest of the ninjas.
Then he'll walk away looking cool, torn cloak flapping, bodies littering the ground around him.
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Basically the Jedi win, by however little amount.
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They'll win dramatically, which is the most important thing.
Jedi vs Ninjas? I mean, come on--we're talking primarily about a battle of style here.
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It seems that Jedi won this battle, what else can we pit them up against?
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that's a scenario I can get around.
OK, who kills who? Here's what I think.
sexy scarlett kills Anakin. Cuz that'd be funny.
Butch Scarlett kills Aayla and Orliss
darth Maul kills butch Scarlett and Jinx. Cuz he's like, the Dark Side, and can therefore kill women. Maybe Aayla can get in on this and kill Sexy scarlett, because she's sexy too. And well, that would make good cinema.
Storm Shadow kills Yoda, barely.
Snake Eyes kills Quigon.
I'm not sure I care who kills Night Creeper, Kamakura, Luke, or Darth Maul. Probably Sexy Scarlett kills the Maul, because y'know, she's sexy.
Final Battle is Mace v. Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow, because, like, you could get Jett Lee and Jackie Chan to play the ninjas. And that would rule.
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All that's left is Mace Windu, and probably a bloodied one. Have him join the Justice League or something. Or maybe some Transformers.
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Well, how bout we put the justice league up against the transformers and he joins the underdogs?
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Just one final tweak, SE--Mace has to lay some MAJOR smack down for it to be dramatic enough. So, I think he has to fight off at least five guys in the ending. His 'final, final' battle can be against the two ninjas, but I say Mace takes out the entire group you listed as 'I don't know who kills these guys.'
Oh, and I say he kills Snake Eyes with a lightsaber AND a katana, which he snatches from the air right as he beheads Storm Shadow.
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well, I was thinknig storm shadow would be almost gone anyway. I mean, he just got Yoda, and that's a tough fight.
but I guess that just makes it easier to behead him.
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ok, i'm altering the scenario.
I don't have any more Jedi, but I have 4 more ninjas.
I have a new Scarlett based off issue #2 of the original run of hte GI Joe comics. SHe's in a Karate Gi, and in sexiness, is somewhere in between sext scarlett and butch scarlett.
I also have another Snake Eyes based off the same comic. So put another one of him in.
THen there's a new "Valor Vs. Venom" series Jinx. I'm impressed with this run, the figures are really cool. And this gives us another sexy ninja.
And there's a cobra guy. uh... Bill... or something. either that or "Slice." I prefer Bill. I He looks stupid and his card is dumb too.
Anyway, the ninja have a huge numerical superiority (Esp. if we add Elektra into the midst, who makes them an even dozen AND she's like, twice as tall, so could step on the Jedi). Does Mac still walk off? Or, since we have only two sexy Jedi, to the ninja win just for having so many sexy, sexy girl ninjas?
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I think that because the ninja are going to lose, still, because we should even the sides back out and take away the magical katana power. Now they have to flat out dodge every attacka a Jedi makes.
I think that a few of the ninja drop like flies in the beggining, and the smart, sexy, or ones with cool names like 'Bill' learn that they can't be hit and remain in the fight, so they dodge. Then they start using their umbers on the jedi, Anikin craps his pants and drops into the fetal position, and starts mumbling about sand.
This gives the ninja a lightsaber, but they aren't fully trained with it, so the Jedi still have a bit of an advantage. In the end it comes down to Mace, Obi-Wan, and Yoda vs four or five ninja. Obi-Wan pulls a sacrificial move and charges in, clearing out two ninja and himself. Yoda is distracted by the sexiness of the surviving sexy ninja, and is stabbed in the back. Mace goes super jedi macho on the remaining ninja and comes out victorious, but with only one hand and four toes.
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You should get some Naruto ninjas. That would help the balance of power on that side.
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well, I DID forget to mention that I have a Foot Soldier and Donatello and Michaelangelo ("a fellow chucker, eh?) of TMNT, which boosts ninja numbers even further.
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But still, you've arguably got three of the most powerful Jedi to ever live...Even without their sabers, Yoda & Mace could Force-toss the ninja around like ragdolls. And Anakin & Luke could whine at them.
There was an ep of the Clone Wars toon where Mace was sans saber for awhile and still took out tons of battledroids.
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yeah, but they're also some of the coolest ninjas ever, with ninja magic and strong wills.
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Oh, well if you have some ninja turtles the pack is sealed, all the jedi are doomed. In fact, I think that not only wouldn't Mace walk away, but at least four ninja would. Like, minimum.
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The Ninja team just got another backup: Usagi Yojimbo
sweet, eh?
ok, he's not really a ninja, he's a ronin, but forced to choose between a team with Anakin Skywalker and someone named "Dooku" or a team with Snake Eyes and Scarlet, I'm tellin' ya, he's all over the ninja team.
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I feel compelled to note that, in rocognition of Christmas and, more importantly, that one player will be absent for the next few weeks, that my group will be playing Teenage Mutant Ninja Reindeer instead of Conspiracy X.
Beware.
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There is, incidentally, a new ninja. I now have a small Nightcrawler in ninja gear.
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I've been rearranging some suff, since the wife is coming in today to deliever my RotK EE DVDs. I'm realizing of the stuff I have out of storage, there are 7 ninjas (an even dozen if you count the TMNT and the Elektra which are on different scales) to only 2 Jedi. That spells trouble.
Of course there's factional trouble with the ninja, what with there bein Joes and Cobras in the group. Plus the Jedi have an ewok to help them. That last fact alone nearly guarantees them victory.
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Does the Inverse Ninja Difficulty Hyptothesis work on jedi too?
More importantly, your wife delievered ROTK EE? I asked for it for Christmas. I was refused. Grr...
If I end up with something lame I don't want instead of the EE, I'll be upset. Especially since I spent about twenty hours making Mix CDs, burning, creating Booklets, writing Senryuu, Printing, Cutting out and so forth.
Hmm...I wonder if that makes me cheap or if it makes me caring? Or possibly just a consummer slave.
The answer is Ninjas
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that's what the returns counter is for. You get something you don't like, you take it back and get something you DO like.
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Except she's buying stuff from a city six hours from here, and another four from where I live.
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Then have her take you.
Plus, most stores, even if you don't have a receipt, will accept on exchange or credit basis at least, any product that they actually sell.
But this is why all gifts should be bought at Target, so you can return them anywhere.
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Isn't that Kinda dishonest? Anyway, I'm gonna talk her into a NESbuckle. NESbuckle rules.
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how is that dishonest? Seriously, I don't get how it could be. They still have stock to sell of equal value to what you get.
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See, Ninja CAN fight Jedi (http://legostargalactica.keenspace.com/d/20040706.html)