Thanks for the quick response! I'm really enjoying the discussion.
Yes. We lived in heaven as spirit children of god. What I mean by that is that God has a perfected physical body but when we were first created, we were only spirits but we still were his literal children. In order to become like him, we had to receive physical bodies and learn to use them properly like he did, which is what this earth life is for. At the second coming, we’ll regain our bodies in a perfected form and those that have lived righteously will continue to progress.
The Earth was created for that purpose and we do not believe in reincarnation, but I believe there is some doctrine of the Earth being perfected as a home for many of us after the second coming but I would have to look it up to give you anything more specific than that.
Thanks, yeah this answers my question, but also raises another one. Do you believe that God always had a physical body? That would seem impossible given that He existed before creating the physical universe.
I personally have never really thought deeply about this particular issue, whether the Father has a physical body. There are many references throughout the Bible to a "throne" and Jesus Christ sitting at His "right hand" but those could simply be metaphors or symbolism.
I believe in the Trinity -- God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three persons in one nature, and that the Son is two natures in one person. I believe in God's omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. I believe that God created human beings sinless, but that because of the sins of Adam and Eve we are now corrupted by sin.
So are you saying that you believe that we are all individually accountable for the sins of Adam?
Our take on that is a little different. We believe that the fall of Adam was an important step in the creation. Not so much that he sinned by leaving the garden, but rather that it showed his choice to leave God's presence and progress as God had intended. In the garden they were childlike and innocent, they couldn't progress because they had never been tempted or had trials that a mortal existence would expose them to. So when they left the Garden, they could be tempted, have trials and sin but they also could learn things they could never learn if they were continually in God's presence and have mortal children. Every person is born innocent and is accountable for their own sins before God.
Basically I am saying that because we are all descendants of Adam, we are all sinful; its in our blood. However, we are judged by God for our own sins. Because we are all children of Adam, we are going to sin. But, if we are born again through belief in and surrender to Jesus Christ, we can overcome the power of sin in our lives. (Though we can never become perfect and without sin in this life.)
I believe that in one sense Adam's sin was a perversion of God's plan, a blight upon the creation He deemed "very good". However, in another sense it was part of His plan all along, so that He could glorify Himself through sending His son to the cross.
God's justice demands that sin be paid for. He did not have to save anyone but because of His love he chose to save anyone who would believe and trust in His Son, Jesus Christ. He was fully man so that He could fully represent us before God, and fully God so that He could act as God's representative to us.
I believe in justification by faith and not by works. I guess you could say if our sin is a giant pit standing between us and God, the Cross is more of a bridge than a landfill. We can't do anything to fill the pit; any good works we try to fill the pit with is ultimately not enough to save us.
I believe that sanctification is a direct outgrowth of justification. God calls on us to become more and more Christlike, not to earn our salvation but because its closer to how things ought to be.
So if saving comes by faith, than does that mean that you believe every person will be rewarded equally after this life regardless on how they lived it? Or does God only chose certain people to save? If so, how is this decided? How do you show your belief if not by works?
God rewards each believer differently based on their works in life. However, the free gift of eternal life is not earned but given to anyone who believes and trusts in Jesus.
However, you are quite right: faith without works is dead. But its the faith that comes first. You can't do your job or work in the soup kitchen for God's glory, for example, until you have a personal relationship with him.
I believe that God directs some people to be saved through the process of election. In case you're unfamiliar with this term (I don't know how Mormon theology is taught
) I'll give you Wayne Grudem's definition from his book SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. "
Election is an act of God before creation in which he chooses some people to be saved, not on account of any foreseen merit in them, but only because of his sovereign good pleasure."As a result of election, these people through free will come to trust in Jesus for forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
We believe in the balance of works and faith. You need both. As your analogy shows, we agree that ultimately we cannot save ourselves and Jesus' atonement allows him to bridge that gap if we repent and are baptized in his name, but it is by our works and commitment to give our very best effort in following the commandments that we qualify ourselves for his saving grace.
I would say that without any sign of change or growth towards Christ's likeness in a person's life, it would be very difficult to say that they have been saved. Of course, only that person and God know the true answer to that question.
I don't think we can ever do anything to qualify ourselves for grace. It's all undeserved. God doesn't choose to save anyone because He foreknew that they would be a good person in life.
Personally I find this doctrine and some of its implications very hard to swallow. At the same time though, it's incredibly comforting to know that I don't need to worry about messing up; Christ has already purchased me from sin into eternal life.
As a side note, however, I am emphatically
not saying that because Christians have trusted in Jesus, they don't have to worry about how they live their lives. There are so many reasons to live a godly life as a Christian. To name a few:
a.) Well, obviously God commands us to follow His commands and become more like Christ.
b.) We want to be a "vessel for noble use", not dis-noble use.
c.) The Bible clearly states that our rewards in heaven are dependent upon our acts in life.
d.) This one really hit it home for me. Each sin I commit now is a sin that Jesus had to pay for on the cross with His life's blood. In a sense, it has already happened, but I still have to make the decision then and there.
Anyway, like I said at the beginning I have really been enjoying this discussion. Anyone else, feel free to jump in!
I'm not at all offended by your questions. Its not often I get to have a deep theologically grounded talk with someone of another faith. Thanks for sharing your honest beliefs with me!