I've been on vacation for a week. Looks like things are moving along here.
Back on page 12, Writerinage said (referring, I believe to my post on the afterlife and the possibility of Eternal Progression, and forgiveness of sin after death):
Your thoughts on a loving God who doesn't not create sinners and then punish them are beautiful... but your lovely personal sentiment is not backed up by christian doctrine, the bible, or even the book of Mormon.
I've been thinking about how to answer this, because I think it's very important to point out that this is not just "my lovely sentiment." This is fundamental Church doctrine, as preached by our prophets, and backed up by scripture.
My brother recently did a short post about our doctrine on his
blog, and has some good quotes to back it up.
I was talking to my mom today about this thread (mostly how interesting it is to have an intelligent rational discussion with people who really want to understand the other point of view), and found myself articulating the reason why it's been so hard coming up with an adequate response.
Latter Day Saints believe that we were sent to earth to try to become more like God. We were to be tested to see who would do the best they could with what they'd been given, and who would be decieved, take the easy way out, or just plain rebel (Think of Christ's Parable of the talents in the
New Testament) Those who passed the test would be given more responsibilities, and more opportunities to learn and grow until they became like God, having all that he has. If you have a view of the afterlife that includes Eternal Progression, active work, and a purpose to continue existing, then you can begin to see the reasons for so many of the commandments and prophetic counsel that others see as so restricting. If you don't believe in such an afterlife, then the commandments could easily seem like "a tool to keep the masses in line." What's the point of exercising such self control, if your reward is to sit around on a cloud playing a harp as an asexual being, or even worse, if you cease to exist altogether? By twisting and hiding this one small bit of doctrine in the Bible as it was copied and translated, and in traditional Christian theology, Satan has done an enormous amount of damage to the gospel as most people learn it -- without that crucial piece, large portions of it simply don't make sense, and very rational people have a hard time reconciling the conflicting bits.
There have been a lot of questions asked about the Mormon view of Heaven and Hell. Some of that discussion has moved into PM's, but Ookla asked me to address it a little in this post, since that's what I'm talking about anyway.
Before we were born, we (human beings) were all spirits living with our Father/Creator (God) in the spirit world. In order to help us progress, God the Father directed his firstborn spirit son Jesus to create the Earth and everything on it (pretty much as described in Genesis). When we come to Earth, our spirit gets a mortal body, and together these two are the "soul." When we die, we leave the body behind, and we're spirits again, in the spirit world. In this spirit world, there are two states -- paradise (for the people who were good) and spirit prison (for the people who weren't). We don't know if these are two separate places, or just two different states of mind, but we do know that there will be communication between the two groups, and those in prison will be taught about the plan of salvation and how Jesus died for our sins, and they will be given a chance to accept Him as their personal Savior, and be set free. Baptism is a part of this process, and if they weren't baptised in mortality, someone will have to be baptised for them by proxy, and then they will have to accept that ordinance in order for it to have any effect.
At some point in time, Christ will come again, the world will end, and there will be a final judgement. Everyone who was ever born will get ressurected and recieve their bodies again (in this way, Jesus saves everyone from physical death -- the separation of the body and spirit which make up the soul). Those that accept Christ as the Redeemer will have their sins forgiven, and can live with Him and the Father (Thus He saves some people from spiritual death, or our separation form God). Those who won't accept Christ's suffering for their sins, will suffer for their own sins. This is known as being "damned" or having your forward progress stopped. There are three main, and many finer gradations of eternal reward/punishment.
Section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants talks more about the final judgement and what you have to do to qualify for each of the kingdoms, and what they will be like. Essentially, if you're the kind of person in this life who would reject Christ's plan or refuse to live the way you know you should because it's just too much work, then you'll be the same sort of person in the next life, and you won't want to do what it takes to go to one of the higher kingdoms.
Hell, in our theology, can refer to a few different things. The most obvious is the spirit prison which exists between death and the final judgement. In this case, the "everlasting and eternal" adjectives that have been applied to it in scripture are a sort of play on words by God because he is everlasting and eternal, whatever punishment he chooses to dole out will be everlasting and eternal punishment (see
D&c 19 -- a chapter that explains a lot of what I'm saying here). Hell can also refer to the "outer darkness" that is reserved for those who knew without a shadow af a doubt that Christ was the Son of God, and yet betrayed that knowledge and worked against His kingdom. Hell can also refer to the "telestial kingdom" which is one of the three degrees of glory (see D&C 76). I don't have a citation handy, but we've been told that if we knew how great even this lowest of the kingdoms is, we'd kill ourselves to get there, and yet the highest, or Celestial Kingdom is amazingly better even than that.
Most of my refrences so far have been to the Doctrine and Covenants, a compilation of revelations received by Joseph Smith and subsequent Prophets. If you read them, you'll find that they really describe the torments of Hell as a state of mind of knowing that you're guilty, and that you could have had so much more if you'd only been willing to do what it takes (believe, keep the commandments, etc). If you want a source in the Book of Mormon for this view of hell and the afterlife, read about the experience of Alma the Younger while he was in a coma-like state after being rebuked by the angel.
Alma 36 (Oh, and sorry about all the footnote letters scattered in there -- if you want to read a clearer copy, click on the link)
5 Now, behold, I say unto you, if I had not been aborn of God I should bnot have known these things; but God has, by the mouth of his holy cangel, made these things known unto me, not of any dworthiness of myself;
6 For I went about with the sons of Mosiah, seeking to adestroy the church of God; but behold, God sent his holy angel to stop us by the way.
7 And behold, he spake unto us, as it were the voice of thunder, and the whole earth did atremble beneath our feet; and we all fell to the earth, for the bfear of the Lord came upon us.
8 But behold, the voice said unto me: Arise. And I arose and stood up, and beheld the angel.
9 And he said unto me: If thou wilt of thyself be destroyed, seek no more to destroy the church of God.
10 And it came to pass that I fell to the earth; and it was for the space of athree days and three nights that I could not open my mouth, neither had I the use of my limbs.
11 And the angel spake more things unto me, which were heard by my brethren, but I did anot hear them; for when I heard the words—If thou wilt be destroyed of thyself, seek no more to destroy the church of God—I was struck with such great fear and amazement lest perhaps I should be destroyed, that I fell to the earth and I did hear no more.
12 But I was racked with aeternal btorment, for my soul was charrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.
13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was atormented with the bpains of hell; yea, I saw that I had crebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.
14 Yea, and I had amurdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.
15 Oh, thought I, that I acould be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my bdeeds.
16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the apains of a bdamned soul.
17 And it came to pass that as I was thus aracked with torment, while I was bharrowed up by the cmemory of my many sins, behold, I dremembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.
18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, ahave mercy on me, who am bin the cgall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting dchains of edeath.
19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my apains bno more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.
20 And oh, what ajoy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!
21 Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.
22 Yea, methought I saw, even as our father aLehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and bpraising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.
23 But behold, my limbs did receive their astrength again, and I stood upon my feet, and did manifest unto the people that I had been bborn of God.
24 Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto arepentance; that I might bring them to btaste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be cborn of God, and be dfilled with the Holy Ghost.
In the scripture below, Zeezrom realizes the damage his lies have caused and starts to feel the chains of Hell
Alma 14:6 6 And it came to pass that Zeezrom was astonished at the words which had been spoken; and he also knew concerning the blindness of the minds, which he had caused among the people by his lying words; and his soul began to be harrowed up under a consciousness of his own guilt; yea, he began to be encircled about by the pains of hell.
In another chapter, (
Alma 5), Alma talks to a group of people -- the children and grandchildren of converts -- about how their fathers had been saved from Hell by believing in Christ. Again, Hell is equated with feeling the guilt of the sins they committed, and with chains that are holding them captive so that they can't progress. To be released from these chains, they had to accept Christ and his Atonement for their sins, and become born again through Him. In this sermon, the goal at the judgement day is to have His image in our countenances -- in other words to do all we can in this life to become like Him.
Wow you have the Bene Gesserit litany against fear as your signature.... that takes up alot of space....
As a side note, I used to chant this as an exercise in "Rational Emotive Imaging" to cure myself of a paralyzing fear of the dark and parking lots.