Local Authors > Stephanie Fowers
AWOL
The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers:
As always, the answer lies in 80s Teen movies. I refer to a) Pretty in Pink, and b) Some Kind of Wonderful. Romantic comedy writers, do yourself a favor and watch these films if you haven't already.
a) Pretty in Pink, Molly Ringwald's (Andie) best friend is Duckie (John Cryer, woo woo!) who is completely in love with her. She knows this, he knows this, he asks her out once, totally oblivious to the fact that she's dealing with another boy at the time, though it should be obvious. Duckie never does win her to his side, but he sticks as a friend and helps her out with her love interest both when it is against his romantic interests, and with someone who belongs to a group he specifically dislikes. I find it a realistic treatment, despite the fact that it's John Hughes. Once it's known that the guy digs his friend who is a girl, it either becomes a romance then, or it never happens.
This jives oddly with my own personal experience, wherein I was very obviously in love with a girl who was my friend, and she knew. It never really blossomed into a romance, but I did get some good make out sessions.
That's the odd thing about friendships to romance. For the party who has a friend who digs on them, it can be tempting for the physical release (Let's make out!) without trying for commitment, which a) strains the friendship, and b) makes the friend who is digging think he's got a shot when he really hasn't.
b) John Hughes gives us the other approach. Mary Stuart Masterson (hubba hubba) plays Watts, who is in love with Keith (Eric Stoltz) who is in love with Amanda (Lea Thompson WOO WOO!). Keith actually wins Amanda over after nearly being beaten by her former boyfriend's goons (saved only by the PUnk Duncan -- played by Elias Koteas, later to play the ever lovin' Casey Jones WOO WOO!). HOWEVER! he's been ignoring some very obvious signs from Watts, his tomboy cum drummer best bud (who helps him practice kissing, how dumb *is* this Keith guy anyway?). Amanda, being a girl and more sensitive to these things, sees how Keith really feels about Watts just as he's becoming conscious of it (but can you ditch a date to go after the one you love? or does that show a complete lack of class). Fortunately, Amanda solves the dilema by sending Keith after Watts, having learned from him already what she needed to know.
So, the friendship can become a romance. The guy more or less has to be hit over the head with a sack of bricks to realize he's been pursuing the wrong one all this time. That's the thing about guys, they tend to go after the wrong one. However, they don't go after jerks, like the stereotypical girl does, they go after the impossible dream (it is my steadfast testimony that deep down inside, every guy is really Don Quijote, and will quite happily scale imaginary castle walls and tilt at windmills for the object of their desires,... so long as they don't have to actually talk to her).
so, my thought? I could write this like cake if it were a guy who was misled. With the girl, it's a bit more odd to me. My perception, along with a lot of guys I know, is that girls love to have guys love them. That's why it appears that they only go after jerks. They already know the nice guys like them, the jerks need more maintenance to ensure their loyalty.
I guess how I'd do this (and yeah, I'm not really answering your specific questions, but I'm throwing out ideas), is that your main char. girl has to realize that nice guy best friend's loyalty is not guaranteed, as he and flighty chick start forming something she realizes that nice guy best friend is the one she really wants to dig on. We must sabatoge this relationship! (kind of a sick My Best Friend's Wedding, I guess). To make her ethical, skip the sabatoge action (just plan it, but be unable to go through with it) and be there for him when flighty chick turns out to really be flighty. Maybe you think that this confirms the Chimp-Gorilla Hypothesis (warning, pages on this subject probably contain some language, knowing the guys who did that, but it's been a while since I read that particular article) when you don't really believe in it. I, however, think it bucks it as a constant, while retaining the realism that some girls *are* like that, just like some guys are. In the mean time, of course, nice guy best friend needs to not realize he's interested in your main char until he's hit with a sack of bricks.
That would satisfy me.
The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers:
Ok, to directly answer questions and not just raise issues that are sure to make the single girls round here hate me:
--- Quote ---1--Let's talk about the intimidation factor. Is it real? Can a guy be too intimidated by a girl to ask her out?
--- End quote ---
A guy can. often this is a shyness thing though. And it doesn't happen to all guys. But at least as often, when it happens, it's a cover for the guy realizing not that she *couldn't* be interested, but that he already knows she just *isn't* interested. He knows how it really is, but it's easier to play the pathetic lack of self esteem than to acknowledge the fact and move on with life.
--- Quote --- 2--Have you ever been just friends with a girl you wanted to date? Did it every go anywhere from there?[/url]
Twice. One resulted in a lot of kissing, no dates. The other ended with a platonic date, and no kissing (though she was pretty open about wanting NCMO, I, however, was just off my mission and had some sort of morality about wanting a kiss to mean something -- it occurs to me that this may sound like bragging, but it was a source of emotional turmoil for me at the time, and very disappointing that she didn't want me for anything besides my lips).
--- Quote ---3--What were some of the signs you showed that she might've picked up? (Now, I've heard from some guys that this is ridiculous...the sign the guy gives is asking her out, but then I've heard from other guys that they take the sniper approach. They sneak up on the girl (generally one with 'scared of guy' tendencies) and get to know them better, so that the girl will fall for him that way? Again, what's most realistic?)
--- End quote ---
Following her around like a puppydog. Doting on her. pretending to me kidding about wanting to hold her hand or going out, or... whatever. It's actually kind of pathetic, when you realize it, unless the sign is the just asking her out. I think the "sniper" approach is doomed to failure. A genuine friendship can turn into a romance, but I've only seen a friendship with ulterior motives of romance work out in the movies -- keeping in mind that 90% of the examples I've used in my posts have been from movies.
--- Quote ---1-Have you ever been friends with a girl, but would never even think about dating her? Why?
--- End quote ---
Never is a very strong word. I have one girl in mind that I chose not to ever date. But certainly I considered it. That's (biologically speaking) part of being a guy. Every girl with any sort of remote possible interest has to be evaluated at least once as a potential mate. This particular girl had a lot of qualities I liked (red hair among them -- but also kindness, creativity, and spirituality). She tried to do the sniper thing with me. She even tried to help me get the girl I was after at the time (whom I was trying to snipe, ah, layers upon layers -- incidentally, the make out one from above, but not romance). I knew she was interested. I just didn't want to.
--- Quote ---2-(a continuation from question 1) Have you ever changed your mind about dating her? Was it too late?--or is it EVER too late (excluding the fact that she might be married)?
--- End quote ---
It's not to late until that ordinance is complete. Nuff said. I suppose there are times when I would have reconsidered. Say... if I had managed to set myself straight about the girl I was sniping at the time. But I don't know that it would.
--- Quote ---Maybe, I'm still off track. Sooo, if I am...what is the most realistic reason for a guy to suddenly want to date a girl he's known for awhile?—or maybe it's not suddenly?
--- End quote ---
... uhm... probably some moment of emotional intimacy. you have a really good conversation about mature, intelligent matters when before she was just "one of the guys" that you hung out with. Learning new things about her, in short. Even if you've known someone for a long time, there will be things you don't know about them. Especially if they dig on you and you don't realize that.
--- End quote ---
guitarbabe:
Oh guys, this is brilliant. I'm going to run these answers off and highlight them. Thanks for the movie comparisons, since I love those movies in question, I can really relate. I do like the sledgehammer approach too...and as for the sabatoging the 'said' relationship, I've got that taken care of 8) She's a girl you love to hate...although maybe she'll have to have some soul searching too (not knowing why she keeps trying to sabatoge until she finds out...too late?)
I almost wonder if it's a...well, I can't get into that right now, I've got to get to work.
Btw, I really hope I'm not giving anything away...but then chick lit endings are pretty give-away anyway, right?
Anyone else have more ideas that I can highlight? Thanks again!
Fellfrosch:
It's been said here several times, but I want to underline it: guys will, at least once, think about dating virtually every attractive girl they meet. That's just how our brains work.
Parker:
I would suggest watching When Harry Met Sally. It's rated R, but if you can get past that, it has a lot to say about this conversation.
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