Author Topic: Michael New. Skar?  (Read 14970 times)

Peter Ahlstrom

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Michael New. Skar?
« on: October 22, 2004, 04:57:04 AM »
I'm curious to see what Skar or anyone's opinion on the Michael New case, where a US soldier was courtmartialed for refusing to wear UN insignia.

Summary on the Jeff Lindsay site.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/MichaelNew.shtml
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Michael New. Skar?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2004, 12:10:17 PM »
Well, New brought it on himself. Choosing to go to have a court marshal over following a lawful order given to him by a superior officer (which incidentally had been issued not only from his lieutenant but by the president of the United States) left only one clear punishment. New actually got off pretty easy, considering he could have gotten 10 years making big rocks into little rocks in a Federal Penitentiary. The oath of an American Soldier goes like this

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the uniform code of military justice."

He broke his oath, because it wasn't his jurisdiction to decide if the mission was in the interest of defending the United States or not.  
By deciding to not wear the UN insignia, New actually put his unit in danger and put the United States in danger of upsetting the delicate balance of treaties in the Balkans risking the escalation of the conflict at the expense of feeling patriotic. Balkan warlords, troops and civilians knew that the UN was coming in to act as peacekeepers, the presence of US troops not under UN auspices or wearing UN uniforms would have fallen outside of the negotiated treaties and been considered an act of war by many of the parties involved. US troops outside of UN jurisdiction would not have been expected
to remain neutral and would have been at higher risk.
Incidentally, New's NJP (non judicial punishment) would have probably only been a reprimand from his CO.

Basically I see this non news story as a way of inciting people to hate the UN even though the UN wasn't at fault.
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Skar

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Re: Michael New. Skar?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2004, 04:11:51 PM »
EA on the website put it pretty well.  The difference between lawful and unlawful orders is clear.  New refused to obey a lawful order and you can't have that in the military.  Period.

If he really believes that there is a problem with the way the U.S. military supports the U.N. and he personally did not want to do so then he chose the right course.  And should accept the consequences.  Once he has been cashiered he should make a large stink and work within our political system to change the relationship we have with the U.N.  That's why our system is set up the way it is.

I don't believe that by working with the U.N. he would have been violating his oath.  Our elected officials have determined that having treaties with the U.N. or with any other country for that matter is a good method for protecting ourselves against all enemies foreign and domestic.  If New was allowed to act on his opinion, which differed from that of our elected officials and his chain of command, without punishment, the next thing we could expect is cowardly soldiers refusing to do dangerous things because they don't believe their oath requires them to do so.  Sorry no go.

If you have a fundamental problem with the idea of the U.S. military supporting the U.N. your problem is a political one.  Solve it through political means.  

Now, we ask ourselves, what about the fact that he said he would go as long as he didn't have to wear the U.N. insignia?  Isn't that the real issue he brought up?  That he didn't mind supporting the U.N. as long he could do so as an American soldier?  The example given of the soldiers in Lebanon who were lumped in with all the other U.N. soldiers captured and therefore effectively abandoned by the U.S. is a disturbing one.  In that case the person who made the decision to think of our men just like we thought of the other U.N. peacekeepers should be dragged out from behind his desk and shot.  If that was New's concern he had a legitimate beef.  As a U.S. soldier you have a right to expect that you will not be left behind, even by politicians.

So conclusion:  
If he refused to wear the insignia because he believed it violated his oath he's just silly and deserved a dishonorable discharge.

If he has a problem with the way the US supports the UN he has a legitimate beef but picked a stupid time and method to make an issue of it, and deserves a dishonorable discharge.

If he believed that he would be left hanging by our country, as those soldiers in Lebanon were, then, again, he had a legitimate beef.   But pains are taken in the article to tell us that his personal safety was not his concern.  So this is pretty much a moot point.

The question I ask myself now is,  if I were asked to go and do something dangerous for the U.N. as a U.N. soldier who just happened to be American, what would I do?  I would do it.  I honestly don't believe our government would abandon me.  I haven't researched it and don't have time to right now but I suspect there was a little more to the American U.N. soldiers in Lebanon issue than, "U.S. government thinks of them like any other U.N. soldier therefore they die."

I'm looking forward to seeing where the discussion on this goes from here.
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Skar

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Re: Michael New. Skar?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2004, 08:16:55 PM »
If it goes anywhere.
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Re: Michael New. Skar?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2004, 08:59:29 PM »
give it time...
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Re: Michael New. Skar?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2004, 09:00:05 PM »
To sum up... two military men think that Mike New got what he deserved.
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Re: Michael New. Skar?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2004, 04:49:31 PM »
It's hard not to think about this issue without recalling that southern Utah town that passed a very unconstitutional law barring anyone from posting any signs or so forth expressing support for the UN. They were very wrong as well.

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Michael New. Skar?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2004, 05:24:53 PM »
Thanks for the answers. I was curious to hear exactly that. You'll get no disagreement from me on whether he deserved his discharge then.

However, it does bring up some wider issues about the UN. I'm not thrilled with the UN at this time, and it seems like a lot of people in the US at the current time are also less than pleased with how the UN is making decisions. I do think the UN should be a good thing, but it's annoying that so many totalitarian states are given legitimacy. Qadafi on the human rights commission?
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Skar

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Re: Michael New. Skar?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2004, 05:51:30 PM »
Sorry if i sound conspiratorial but the UN is a bad idea from the ground up.  It's a waste of effort if it can't enforce its decrees, as we pretty much see today, but if we give it the power to enforce its decrees it becomes a nonrepresentative, wildly corrupt, unstoppable short of world wide armed rebellion, entity.  No one here wants that.  

There are those out there that do.  why do you think the U.N. and those that back it are such anti-gun nuts?  It's much easier to subjugate an unarmed populace.  I'm not kidding on that one.  I think the founding fathers wanted the second amendment to protect the citizen's ability to revolt.  And that throws a wrench into the plans of the globalists.
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Re: Michael New. Skar?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2004, 07:01:35 PM »
I wasn't commenting on the UN. Just that passing a law forbidding the expression of support for the union is bald-face unconstitutional.

I think you've taken it to extreme. I'm not saying that it's a great thing, but I don't think you have to have the either/or extreme you present.

JP Dogberry

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Re: Michael New. Skar?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2004, 06:22:05 AM »
See, I like walking down the street and not risking getting shot at.
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Re: Michael New. Skar?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2004, 12:25:19 PM »
And you dont think that the people who really want to shoot at random people on the street are going to get guns anyway? Black Market anyone? Zip gun?
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Michael New. Skar?
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2004, 01:44:08 AM »
/me lights Archon on fire
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JP Dogberry

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Re: Michael New. Skar?
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2004, 03:26:17 AM »
It's kinda obvious you've never lived in Australia.

The people who want to shoot at random people on the street: no, they will not get guns anyway. These are the people who are a) mentally unstable and b) would have a lot of trouble getting guns.

The people who could really get guns if they wanted on a black market are hardcore criminal types. Like, really hardcore organised crime. The sort you don't run into randomly on the street, and the sort who generally are shooting people for a good reason, not random people on the street. (Which would get them arrested really quickly.)

Of course, there's that gang war stupidness in Melbourne, but that's mostly shooting at other gang members. And I'm neither in a gang, nor in Melbourne.
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Re: Michael New. Skar?
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2004, 09:08:14 AM »
so they DO get guns.

You've obviously never lived in America, where only the very paranoid live in fear of being shot by a random person on the street. Which is why it's hilarious when you or the guys at CM ever express fear about hand guns. You're the ones who are mentally unstable in our eyes.