Timewaster's Guide Archive
Games => Role-Playing Games => Topic started by: Mr_Pleasington on October 06, 2004, 08:02:13 AM
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So I downloaded the one Savage Worlds Plot Point Book that I've been waiting for (well, other than Deadlands Reloaded). I wasn't sure that Savage Worlds could do Supers, but it sure looks like it can. The power system is the popular 'buy a power and then modify it' seen in Mutants and Masterminds and several other games.
The plot is pretty amazing too, for those who haven't heard. An alien race has wiped out or caputered the superheroes of the Earth. Who is left to save the Earth from these vile invaders? Why, the supervillains of course!
I've only skimmed the plot points, but it looks like a pretty awesome storyline.
I'll write up a full review once I digest it, it deserves one.
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Can you give a link? I tried the pinnacle site but couldn't find it, neither on their online store or rpg.now.
Also, Games Workshop have liscened someone (Ronin I think... maybe mongoose) to make a Warhammer 40,000 RPG. And they are re-doing the Warhammer Fantasy RPG.
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Here's the link: http://www.peginc.com
If you ever forget, I think deadlands.com still works.
And I did hear Green Ronin was doing the 40K RPG (though I'm not quite sure how that will work, not too many forces in 40K are very...uh...sypathetic). It'll be great to see WFRP back in print. My beat-up copy of the core book is hid securely away.
The download for Necessary Evil is almost 50 MB too. I had to go to an internet cafe to do it and burn it to a disk. Kind of negated the 'PDF is cheaper' thing.
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Mr Pleasington.
This is an announcement to say that you are an utter bastard. You had to go and make me buy Savage Worlds, The GM screen, and the .pdf of Necessary Evil. You HAD TO.
>:(
On the other hand, it will go brilliantly with my group. Villians are so much more interesting that heroes :)
And the 40k rpg should be promising. Sure, not much sympathy for anyone, but every race is fascinating. I know people who looked at the backstory after playing DoW and said it was the most awesome thing they had ever read. Though this was the timeline that mentioned the Emperors birth as 8,000 BC. Which was a bit interesting.
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Oh, and I'll have you know that my copy of WFRP is in prime condition. I bought it only a few months before the company went down.
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I feel like a Savage Worlds salesman. You're not the first to pick up the system after hearing me rave about it.
Actually, I'm single-handedly responsible for the popularity of the system in St. Louis. I hooked my players who told two friends, who told two friends, and so on...
I should be getting commission
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Well i just read all of Necessary Evil (apart from the powers section, since lists of powers/spells put me to sleep). I'm all excited now, and I usually fix that by making characters... but I don't have Savage Worlds itself :< CoH is helping though :P
I am concerned about the railroad-ness of it. There does not seem much potential for players not following their orders, and many of the missions seem like if you fail them you just have to pretend they were not that important. But they do cover a lot of very cool ideas for things to do, with even the alternative 'evil self' dimension universe making an appearance. Most curious is that the book assumes that the PC's will become more and more good as the campaign progresses. It seems counterproductive to do that when the whole premise is that you play SuperVillians. And there does not seem much capacity for playing the traditional Evil Villian with a 100 minions. Pity.
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Actually there's a minions power that lets you have quite a few, IIRC.
The story is a bit railroady, but you're supposed to generate three missions each game session and let the players pick, so it won't seem to railroady. Plus, there's amp room to work extra, character-driven, stuff in.
As for the PCs becoming more heroic. I think that's partially true, but even in the late missions there is the option for doing very bad things. That's what makes it so cool.
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I love this game,... bought it on the day it came out... and my buddy Liz Shelton has given me permission to turn her into a Villain/ Antihero for it. Uber cool.
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Also: the Lair power. Oh, but of course :D
I don't like the random mission generator. It reminds me too much of a video game random encounter thing. Seems like just a way to work in a bit of space between big story elements. The missions are too generic as well. I can see doing a few of them just as filler, but without the interesting backplots and stuff of the pre-made ones, they are just too boring. A gunfight is just a gunfight at the end of the day, unless the players care about the results.
It's not really a problem - players don't tend to have total freedom in our games anyway. NE has about the same level of freedom we usually have - the GM decides that something happens, and the players respond in their own (insane) fashion. I'd probably just, every so often, ask the players if there is anything they are doing downtime. I imagine that they will want to snoop around the bar of that guy whose neutrality is mentioned, just to check it out. The problem being to prevent that sort of thing taking over entire sessions.
The story is really good though. The feel of it is all good as well - lots of secret lairs with diabolical equipment just waiting to be plundered, and plenty of opportunity to throw cars (with inhabitants still inside, of course) at various alien vehicles :) And I like how you can make it a really long campaign, by inserting more missions and giving less exp per session, or making it a short campaign, using just the core missions and a few extras, and giving a lot of exp reward. Though knowing my group, it'll take a session to do the short missions, and 2 for the long ones. We tend to have too many diversions and OOC discussions for that.
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I love this game,... bought it on the day it came out... and my buddy Liz Shelton has given me permission to turn her into a Villain/ Antihero for it. Uber cool.
Change the 'lta' to 'rida' and you get the very cute pyro girl from Hellboy.
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I think one of the three of you needs to write me a review. or two of you. or all of you.
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As mentioned in the opening post, I'm writing one.
Already started it, in fact.
Since I'm going to the Gold Coast for the next few days I won't have it done until next week though.
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I'll add a second opinion onto the end of that, or write my own review. Whichever.
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I'd planned on a review too, so I may just throw in my 2 bits.
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I like how the powers modify... my experiment The Fractal Queen aka Liz Shelton is a 20 something 4th force controlling heiny kicker. Force control has mods for flight and force field and theyre fairly cheap, but still a point over my opening maximum when added up. Sure I could take FC at level 3 and take a few other powers... but why.
Liz just took her power as a device, her Fear Helmet (Fractal Energy Amplification Resonator) which forms light into solid holograms that can do some serious damage. My next power up I plan on spending a few points (3 actually to allow her to use her powers w/o the helmet) with the extra points left over I took a few super skills and viola. Instant Villian
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multiple reviews give me more days of content. Just make sure you have something different to say, and I'll run them all.
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Yay! As from thursday after next, i'll be running this campaign for my group :D
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There might be a chance I can talk mine into playing it instead of M&M.
PDF and all that.
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you're already running a campaign. If you want to run all the campaigns, then youc an convince your group. If you want me to gm, you're playing M&M buddy.
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Even if you got two free books out of it?
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if they're in electronic format, I'd accept them, and probably never get around to reading htem. I have something like 50 e-books on my computer. How many of them have I read? 0.
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I'd give you a print version from kinkos, like the one Ive got...
1 copy of NE and a copy of SW Revised....
its cheap if I do black and white anyways....
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well, I'll accept it and read it hten. Aftwerward, I can tell you what system we'd use. It'd have to do a lot though, because I'd have to make up the stats. I already have 4 sessions worth of npc stats on hand for M&M, plus PLENTY of stock npcs that would fit right in for future adventures.
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Mr. P's review is up (http://www.timewastersguide.com/view.php?id=879).
I'm thinking about this, and I think my problem goes back to setting. I don't want a setting enforced on me and that seems to be the only unique thing about the game, really. And I can make that up for another system easy enough.
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Thats a common problem in a lot of super hero games, and its easy enough to alter or add to this one. The only real railroading is that the characters are villains, and even that doesn't have to be true. Remember how Pleasington said it came in two sections PG and GM guide... well just dont use the GM guide and run your own city if you want.
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That's actually something I forgot to add...there will be the standard Pinnacle support for this.
That means a cheap PDF of the player's guide of the setting, which is all you need to run supers with SW, and a counter collection.
So you don't need to be railroaded by the setting.
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oddly I like the setting, which is more evocative than concrete,... the map of Star City is just cool looking.
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well, see, that's my point. I don't see what there is that will move me from a system I really like and already know very well.
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eh, I do, especially since its the same system as the other game we're playing... Keeps Karl from having to learn 20 different games...
Anyhow just wait till you see the Zeppelin
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that's not a strong enough argument to change to a system that doesn't interest me, esp when I already have stats and adventures for the system I already like a lot.
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yeah but you havent even looked at the other system yet.... so I think your judging it a little early.
Oh and they have a conversion table for d20 that would allow you to convert M&M stuff in a flash...
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it's the same system as Savage Worlds, you just said that. That's what I'm basing my judgement on. Plus, Mr. P said the system had little to offer someone who already had a system he likes.
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I think you should look at it first before you decide its useless, because its well done. As for what SW brings to the table I say the biggest plus is speed SW tends to condense things to a managable level and since most powers are just trapping or flash over a base effect it works really well for SW. SW's philosophy of NPC's is pretty good,
Consider this GM rule # 1 when it comes to NPC's: Don't design them! Dont create your NPC's wth character creation rules. Just give them what you think they ought to have in their various skills and attributes and move on. The game is supposed to be easy for you to setup run and play. Dont sit around adding up skill points for NPC's when you could be designing fiendish traps and thinking up nasty special effects for your monsters!
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I never said it was worthless. I just said it doesn't look like it has nearly enough to offer me to convert.
I disagree with that NPC philosophy. That's great for Orcs and grunts and such. But when you have a Super-villain, welll.. they're typically recurring characters. They're unique. Who, as a super-hero, wants to fight a band of orcs? Sure Joker's minions can be generic thugs, but the main baddies, they need to be characters. I don't have a lot of time, and M&M has a HUGE database of character stats with complete villains, with backgrounds and everything.
The problem with just making up numbers is balance. Is this something the characters can take on. M&M is VERY good and being able to quantify relative power levels. And supers are the hardest to balance at all. Working out what their powers can and can't do is important.
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I disagree with that philosophy in super games completely. Statifying Super Villains is saying that they can be beaten with brute force. Take Magneto, no lucky roll should be able to take him out, he's wicked smart, and usually gets the upper hand over a lot of the X-men. Is giving him hit points or skills at level 20 really useful, when you can just say.. hey its Magneto, he can do that, and he can do that without effort.
Beating Villains should be an iffy thing, and players should be forced to get really creative to win...
But thats just my opinion.
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That's not terribly fair. "He can do anything he wants" amounts to a gm just saying "Ok, now I've decided you can beat him." there's no way to quantify when the players can actually beat him but referee whim. If you give him stats, you've set the boundaries. Magneto CAN be beaten, incidentally, and there's no way, even with stats all set forth, that a character with the powers of say, Jubilee, is going to stop him. But a Wolverine with the adamantium stripped off his skeleton... well, he's got a shot at it.
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I dont see that as being a bad thing, especially in game circumstances where a villain should be able to do something and cant because he doesnt have the appropriate points r skill. Incidentally most super hero villains in the major RPG books weren't designed using the character generation system anyway. They were explained by it.
Anyhow I never stated that they don't have stats, in SW, just that you dont need to balance the points before a game more than, Ok he's got invisibility, toughness level two and super speed. If he ahs to use a skill you say, yeah magneto can use a computer, or Spiderman knows how to take a picture.
but even still with a statted game reoccurring villains is more an issue of letting them escape.
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then why have rules at all?
yes, it is a serious question. if none of the villains have stats, FAIR stats, then the GM is just making it up anyway. There doesn't seem to be any reason whatsoever for having rules in the first place.
and yes, that gets exactly at what I was saying. If you don't have to balance them, then there's no balance. No way to gauge if they're a fair match for the players. I'm all for GM cheating if it will enhance the game. But minimizing the amount of cheating necessary seems desirable. Thus an easy to balance set of abilities. Like M&M.
and you still haven't said anything about the system that makes it seem better than M&M to me, which is my primary reason for not wanting to play it, let alone RUN it. I don't particularly care for the SW system. I don't hate it, but it doesn't appeal to me. M&M however, is a system that very closely approximates a system I was trying to work out anyway. It's veritably ideal.
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then why have rules at all?
yes, it is a serious question. if none of the villains have stats, FAIR stats, then the GM is just making it up anyway. There doesn't seem to be any reason whatsoever for having rules in the first place.
and yes, that gets exactly at what I was saying. If you don't have to balance them, then there's no balance. No way to gauge if they're a fair match for the players. I'm all for GM cheating if it will enhance the game. But minimizing the amount of cheating necessary seems desirable. Thus an easy to balance set of abilities. Like M&M.
I disagree and heres why... Superpowers in their own right arent really balanced anyway, no matter how many points it cost to buy Super Strength it doesnt equate with Telepathy, or Invisibility, or the ability to shrink and grow, or strech like plastic man.
Any balancing point system is subjective and thats ok. I dont feel that designing a Villain in Savage Words and NE is as you say cheating. You and I arent 14 and it can be assumed that we arent out to screw the PCs in the party. You and I also have no interest in power gaming . What we do want is a fun creative game. And maybe thats why SW is targeted at an older gaming crowd, one that wants a loose framework of rules to do a lot of things and that trusts the GM and players to play a game they want to. Its far more creative and realistic not to mention convienient to work out a character background and jot down what the Villain should have instead of taking 40 minutes to roll up a character and then level it. Thats ok when all the work is already done, but how balanced is a character that has been written by someone else for a party that isn't remotely like yours.
Designing the villain around his background rather than a point system seems much more balanced in the long run and at least give the hero's something to shoot for if they can't beat them right away.
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I think you underrate the balancing system severely. As far as playing fast and loose with the rules, I still have not even a remote sense of why people think you can't do that with d20. I don't, typically, because there's no need to. but you certainly can.
And it doesn't really answer my question. If the GM is going to make everything up without regard to the process, why do you have rules at all?
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I dont think I severly underrate it, I just dont care for that style of GMing... it seems restrictive and like stifles creativity. As for d20, I realize you can do anything with it you want, after all its your game, however it isnt the philosophy of the game, which is more likely to influence how its played.
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I don't understand where this "philosophy of the game" comes from either. Every book they have states to bend things to your use. Just because it's complete? That doesn't make sense to me. I grew up playing, almost exclusively (a few romps into WEG systems, Palladium, and WoD), D&D and d20. I never felt like I couldn't twist things to meet my group's needs. I also found that the games I liked the least were the games where the GM ignored the rules the most. This is a huge part of why I will never play a WoD game again.
If you want to make it all up, write a book. If you want to play a game with friends, at least try to stick to an agreed system.
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This is a huge part of why I will never play a WoD game again.
At this point a little puppet pops down and sings in a silly little voice, 'Bias! Pinapple bias!'. It then pops up again.
:P
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see, it may be a bias, but people always tell me that the strength of the Storyteller system is that it allows so much improvisation and "doesn't bind you to rules"* or something. And it's that exact lack of definition that has made the games I've played very unfun. It always felt like gms were playing favorites or running an agenda instead of helping everyone have fun.
*as a huge digression, one reason I am wary about arguments about this being a virtue is that it's the sort of complaint I heard all the time from missionaries who didn't want to obey mission rules. This is an irrational association, I know, since game rules have nothing to do with salvation and service to God, but the association comes unbidden to my mind.
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Its a great way to nip rules lawyers in the bud, thats for sure.
And it's that exact lack of definition that has made the games I've played very unfun. It always felt like gms were playing favorites or running an agenda instead of helping everyone have fun.
And I had the exact opposite experience when playing WOD. I always felt that the lack of rules let the players get into their characters more and made the game run much more smoothly. Maybe I just had some good GM's.
Your main argument in the past about WOD has typically been more about subject matter and less about system,.. have your feelings changed?
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no, the subject matter still doesn't interest me at all. And what I've seen of the execution is mostly stereotypes and pointless clans based on personalities. Maybe that's not a fair assessment, but it's how the company has presented it, so it'd be their own fault. So It's hard to even think about changing. But even if I could get into a campaign like that, the way it's been executed in the past would be a major stumbling block still.
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For me the greatest strength has always been its scope - it has every kind of check you could make, social, problem solving or combat, all on the first page. I think it's a good system for combat light games, since its a crap combat system but works well as a social system. The more successes rule makes it easy for a GM to decide just what the result was.
But in all honesty, the storyteller system is of minor importance. You could play WoD with D20 if you wanted.* Its the background and the setting that is so important for WoD.
*Bear in mind that I would feel undying hatred for you though.
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Yeah, thats a real simplistic overview of WOD, after all Clans aren't any more silly than character classes, more than anything they frame a characters powers and abilities moe than they do the personality (at least they did in the games I played in)
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*Bear in mind that I would feel undying hatred for you though.
So it would be business as usual then?
Maybe it's personal perception, but I remember reading about vampire clans and thinking "This is completely absurd." The text seemed MUCH more heavy on everyone having the same personality than it did powers. Now, that's in contrast to AD&D 1st ed. which had NO comments, really, about personality and class. Something that has been getting worse with every edition. I agree, now in 3E, D&D classes are defined in the books as much by personality as anything else, which is something I think Wizards should be burned for, but since I have my old school D&D mindset, it's easier for me to get around.
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Clans etc do promote stereotypes, yes. But so do character classes.
'What is your character like?'
'He is a barbarian.'
'No, I mean what is he like?'
'He... is a barbarian?'
But if you don't like the setting of Vampire, yeah. There is not a great deal that anyone can say to change your mind. But I would recommend you at least give Mage an open glance. It's got a GURPS edition if you want to avoid Storyteller.
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I might could get converted to Exhalted, but the only reason I can thing of to change over is for the setting, which hasn't gotten me excited.
The real problem is that I don't buy games for settings. When the setting becomes the core of the game, I think I've failed as a gm. I almost always make up a setting myself. There are some games where the setting and the system really do go hand in hand, like Chosen (which had a crap system, but COULD have worked for the cool setting), or Paranoia, but these are not frequent. I would play Decipher's LotR game in a custom setting, just like I do d20, I'd play B5 in a custom SF setting.
One major exception I'm making for an upcoming campaign is my M&M game does take place in the published setting. But that's ... well, I can't go further. Sufficeth to say that it won't be a standard use of it.
This is, however, why I like Avalanche products so much. They have good setting ideas, but the ideas can be lifted out and ported without any changes at all. And their historical research is pretty good, so if I *do* want to do a Viking game, or a 17-18th century pirate game, well, Here's a nice source.
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At one point I had all the Exalted corebooks and a bunch of supplements. I sold them when I realized I would never play nor run it.
It had a great theme and a very fun attitude about it.
But the rules were too much. Far, far too much to keep track of. I've heard of people converting it to Tri-Stat but not seen anything solid. I've pretty much lifted what I like about the setting and that in the back of my mind for when the right system comes along.
You know...I could actually use Necessary Evil to run it. Exalts are little more than super-powered fantasy tropes. Hmmmm....that could work...