Timewaster's Guide Archive
General => Rants and Stuff => Topic started by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on March 25, 2005, 05:27:51 PM
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Whoever wrote these help files had no idea that commas go INSIDE the quote marks. As soon as I see " I feel the urge to release a primal scream, because I'll have to move yet another comma. A small thing, but geez, they didn't get ANY of them right
That's all. How come they can't get the little things right?
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Uhm... give example?
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Dude, use find and replace.
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Actually, my preferred method of grammar is a British-US mix that involves double (as opposed to single) quotation marks but general British punctuation (so, for example, commas are placed logically, not according to fixed rules).
So I do that regularly. Just never in my English papers.
I also, for that matter, combine British and American spelling types, where I use "ou" instead of "o" (in words like "honour"), but -er instead of -re in words like "center". I still haven't made up my mind about -ise or -ize though, though I think I'm leaning towards -ise.
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Actually, the way grammer and punctuation are moving, as influenced by computers, is for the comma to go outside the quote marks, and for only what is directly quoted to go inside the quote marks. For example, in one particular code language "." means "Repeat last statement". Now, classically, and traditionally, it should be punctuated like this:
"Code code.." with the full stop/period inside the quotes. Since that messes up the code, it needs to be moved outside. Commas seem to follow the same rule.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it's moving that way. I have no doubt within the centuary, the world "Tickets" will be obsolete, replaced by the word "Tix".
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Uh, yeah, perhaps in coding, but certainly not in any sort of thing I'm working on--meaning nonfiction in the social sciences or fiction.
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yeah, Jam, I've not seen one example of a period outside the quotes being proper usage outside of coding.
and skar, it's in about 50 different documents.
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Well, I have, ok?
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well, when only one person has seen it, and when people who are professional writer/editors haven't, adn those people either recently or are still studying for higher education, I'm thinking that doesn't mean the system is moving toward it.
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It's proper British grammar!
At least, depending on context. You wouldn't have:
*'Take me to the store', she said.
But rather:
'Take me to the store,' she said.
But:
The man called them 'throps'.
Etc.
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and your american editor will shoot you in the face if you give that to him constantly.
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That's really too bad.
Stupid Americans. It's too bad consistency doesn't count for anything, eh?
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Oh it counts for something. It counts for points towards a face-shooting.
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We should shoot more americans in the face, or did I read that wrong?
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well, Jam, seeing as you don't have any guns, that'd be difficult, wouldn't it?
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Never underestimate the black market, har.
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Perhaps that's why so much mind-grating American spelling keeps haunting me still.
*rattles collection box*
This is for JP to buy a gun... uhh, no, I'm feeling quite alright thanks. Er, why are you running away? No really!
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Yeah, buy JP a gun or three, he'll no doubt shoot himself whilst trying to manouveur into a 'cool' stance, and then you, me, and Bones can steal them, and its all good. Of course, Bones is more than likely to shoot himself in the foot or something too, but yeah. We'll get to *that* later.
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Who said anything about guns? You can shoot a crossbow. Or a Catapult.
Oh, and you two: Make Bones post here already. If he refuses, sing "Bones, Bones, Bones, Bones, Don't you love to suck the marrow?" at him until he agrees.
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That's really too bad.
Stupid Americans. It's too bad consistency doesn't count for anything, eh?
Americans have more Nuclear warheads, we get to decide the grammer.
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yeah, maybe if you spelled things correctly we'd spell like you.
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I'm an American.
I just happen to dislike some aspects of American spelling and grammar.
Out of curiosity, how many Americans here are thoroughly bothered when they read British Lit because of the spelling and punctuation? Anyone hold Tolkien's English against him?
(tempted to call anyone who does a git. Heh)
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I'm not.
Anyone who does is a git.
And no, you wouldn't copy us if we spelled stuff correctly, because we spell stuff correctly and you don't copy us.
It's called "English" not "American" by default, the poms are right.
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Unless it's by microsoft, in which case it's 'American English'.
I always search for the 'Proper English' selection when I see that, but it's never there :(
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It annoys me to all heck, but I've been doing technical editing and I have felt a strong urge to put periods and commas outside of quote marks because of the technicality of the programming language. I have fought the urge to use single quotes, though. I don't think that all genres will move over to this, but I think that technical fields have started and will continue to do this. Just pick up a programming book.
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And no, you wouldn't copy us if we spelled stuff correctly, because we spell stuff correctly and you don't copy us.
circular logic doesn't prove anything.
We don't copy you because you're WRONG. extra unnecessary letters and others out of order. What foolishness is this.
anyway, it's my firm belief, due to the political supremacy of American, that American is what will be spoken in the future.
Also because it's less retarded.
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Half of the world learned English from us British. The indians use English - thanks to us. Thats 1 billion people right there, boyo. One suspects that we win.
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I said political supremacy, not current numbers.
See, I'm talking about future development. As history moves on, people are mroe and more going to have to do business with the US. And the US is notorious for demanding business on the US's terms.
Thinks will change, buddy.
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/me drops the f-bomb and watches the english language dissolve
Fagg0t!
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Entropy, hate to break it to you, but that isn't the F-bomb.
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The word "bastardisation" comes to mind.
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That's an excellent word.
I happen to find many British spellings aesthetically pleasing.
And American punctuation is just generally stupid when compared to the Continental or British model.
All hail logic!
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Entropy, hate to break it to you, but that isn't the F-bomb.
No crap, sherlock. :P
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Well then, my dear Watson, why don't you refrain from mislabeling your profanity?
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Make Bones post here already. If he refuses, sing "Bones, Bones, Bones, Bones, Don't you love to suck the marrow?" at him until he agrees.
Yeah, uh, NO. Much as I like pretty white wraparound jackets with the shiny (Shiny, Gopher! Shiny!) buckles, I think I'll pass in this instance. And I'd be very much interested to see you trying to shoot a crossbow. Complete geeks from BDC don't have a good history with crossbows - y'know, Bones shooting himself through the hand with one ::) But anyway...
Could I just point one thing out SE? I believe that at various points in history, the Romans, Alexander the Great, the Crusaders, the Mongols, Hitler, Britain, and, I think, Russia, have all thought that they were going to pretty much 'own' the world, and that everyone would be converted to their way of speaking and thinking... sorry to burst your bubble, but I last I heard people were still speaking things apart from latin, german, and english :P
What *will* probably happen is that in 50 years time, there will be two seperate languages - English and American. Then people can argue which one is better.
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and American will look like this:
"Y'all wesoo owx0e all yonder world right here and there, yokel, so, iffin, uh, yokel, uh, iffen ye be minded to talk to y'all over 'in there, we iffin uh yokel have the right to be wielding yer guns, so we mustin' be yokel be bein the best nation on earth!"
And yes, that's supposed to be funny, not insulting.
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Make Bones post here already. If he refuses, sing "Bones, Bones, Bones, Bones, Don't you love to suck the marrow?" at him until he agrees.
- yes, well I poke him every now and then, tell him he's a stooge, steal his food, and point and laugh at his bad haircut, but all as yet to no avail. Say Xaio, about that armoury...
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What *will* probably happen is that in 50 years time, there will be two seperate languages - English and American. Then people can argue which one is better.
I think that it will take much longer than 50 years (in fact we've talked about this in some of my classes). First of all, America and Britain have been separated for 400 years and yet, in general, Americans are able to understand the British just fine and vice versa. To add to this, the language separation between America and Britain has slowed down considerably since the world has gotten "smaller" (i.e. through satellite communication, media, world-wide travel, etc.). This doesn't mean that the languages won't separate, but it will take quite a bit longer than if there was the same amount of communication between the two countries as there was back in the seventeenth century.
Besides, when can you really say that America has taken on a completely new language and is no longer the same as that spoken in Britain? There are many languages that are considered separate languages even though they can be understood by speakers of other languages (for example, Ukrainian and Russian). I think that it will be considered a separate language when enough people advocate for it being separate and it is accepted by a wide populace. I am not sure that will happen very easily because a lot of people like English being the widest spread language and as long as the language that is spoken in Australia, the U.S., England, South Africa, India, etc. is considered the same, then it will keep its position as a powerful language. It empowers speakers of English and people like being empowered. Anyway, it's something to think about.
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Could I just point one thing out SE? I believe that at various points in history, the Romans, Alexander the Great, the Crusaders, the Mongols, Hitler, Britain, and, I think, Russia, have all thought that they were going to pretty much 'own' the world, and that everyone would be converted to their way of speaking and thinking... sorry to burst your bubble, but I last I heard people were still speaking things apart from latin, german, and english :P
What *will* probably happen is that in 50 years time, there will be two seperate languages - English and American. Then people can argue which one is better.
The other problem with that idea is that Latin DOES still dominate. there are more European languages that have Latin as their foundation than any other tradition. We still use latin modifiers and terms. And the single largest Christian organization still uses Latin as an official language. It's often used in science. THis 1500 years after the nation who made the language ceased to exist. Sorry, that's pretty darn influential. For hundreds of years it WAS what you spoke. I never said American English would be permanently enshrined, but I think it will come to dominate over other forms of the language.
and American will look like this:
"Y'all wesoo owx0e all yonder world right here and there, yokel, so, iffin, uh, yokel, uh, iffen ye be minded to talk to y'all over 'in there, we iffin uh yokel have the right to be wielding yer guns, so we mustin' be yokel be bein the best nation on earth!"
And yes, that's supposed to be funny, not insulting.
What's really funny about it is that I hear many many more australians speak on par with this intellectual level than Americans.
As for anything else being funny about it, I don't think so. It just sounded like more American bashing, which is the thing about you that angers me the most, Jam.
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I'm not bashing Americans, I'm bashing stupid americans.
I bash stupid Australians too. Equal oppurtunity stupid people bashing!
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I'm not angry, I just want to point out that that is in no way representative of the way normal American's speak. I have relatives from the south (whom I think you are trying to refer to) that I visit, and that isn't remotely representative of them either, even taking into account that it is exaggeration. So yeah, not out of line so much as out of place.
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ya think?
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I'm not bashing Americans, I'm bashing stupid americans.
I bash stupid Australians too. Equal oppurtunity stupid people bashing!
Is there a difference between an American and a stupid American? I thought the therm 'American' just automatically inferred the 'stupid'.
Also, uh, if America, like, was formed by the British, and also their language originated likewise, wouldn't you think that it would make more sense to maintain it? Obviously not, I suppose it is logicalthat over the centuries, in order to allow for the decrease in the intellectual average, the American language and grammatical requirements have had to have to been simplified.
Nerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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(to reply to your introduction post)
There are a few regular gals around here - me, Brenna, stacer, Old One, Mistress of Darkness, Ms. Fish, Tekiel and Sigyn are the ones that come to mind. Jelly Belly just joined our ranks as well.
(Who am I forgetting?)
Ah yes, Master Gopher as well.
Welcome!
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*0_0*
JP got himself a minion!!!
Also... Woo, now I know it was *you* who randomly spawned on my msn list...
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/me smiles
Thank you...I was expecting smackdown for speaking in leet in my intro post...I'll make sure to act more 'appropriately' from now on...and now I'll leave this alone and let the thread continue on...I'm waiting for the newbie smackdown still o_O *eep*
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(Who am I forgetting?)
Stacer. Don't forget Stacer.
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Hmm, I remembered her but forgot to type her.
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The other problem with that idea is that Latin DOES still dominate. there are more European languages that have Latin as their foundation than any other tradition. We still use latin modifiers and terms. And the single largest Christian organization still uses Latin as an official language. It's often used in science. THis 1500 years after the nation who made the language ceased to exist. Sorry, that's pretty darn influential. For hundreds of years it WAS what you spoke. I never said American English would be permanently enshrined, but I think it will come to dominate over other forms of the language.
Ok then... french, spanish, italian. English, whilst it does draw a considerable amount from latin, it is essentially a german language.
The fact that christianity still uses latin as their official language proves nothing - just that they've been around for a while. Tell me, what are the jewish, or arabic holy books written in? The moslem holy books? Last I heard, certainly the moslem holy books were written before christianity was even concieved of, and Im pretty sure that they were written in a language which is still being used today. By the largest religion in the world. It may have been modified (I'm not sure) but so has latin - a lot of the pronunciations etc. today are suss, its how they *think* it happened.
You've also ignored all the other examples I pointed out. Heck, if nothing else, ignore all of them and just look at two examples: the asians, and the moslems.
Could I *also* point out that whilst the Americans 'have political supremacy' that if you look at history, most likely it won't last long?
What's really funny about it is that I hear many many more australians speak on par with this intellectual level than Americans.
Oh, please, I'm curious? Incidentally, I never said that Australians were any different from the Americans in terms of differing in accents etc. from English, in fact I didn't mention Australia at all. So taking cheap shots doesn't accomplish a heap, sorry.
Brownie points to mercury_yume incidentally.
And Gopher - next weekend I'll *show* you an armoury :D
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Actually, Islam comes a fair bit after Christianity, to the point where Jesus is considered to Mohammad a little as John the Baptist is considered to Jesus by Christians.
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Really? Hm, ok, my mistake, I apologise.
A couple of things I forgot to mention:
Latin influenced a fair few modern languages
Greek influenced and was the basis for latin, and is still spoken.
Theoretically, Greek is just as influential as latin.
And face it, latin isn't spoken that often - and when it is, in professions like botany, and medicine, etc. most ppl don't understand what they're saying. The exceptions are some lawyers, and historians. Western lawyers and historians. Plus priests sing/use verses from the bible etc. which are selected - they still can't speak latin. I can learn some arabic phrases in an hour, and speak them perfectly - doesn't mean I can speak latin.
Oh, and the 50 years thing? It was a random number picked out of the air. Nonetheless, what you said was still interesting Jelly.
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That, and Judaism came a good two millenia before Christianity. And hey, we still speak the same language we started with, Hebrew. (Alright, fine, we started with Aramaic, but Hebrew's been around for just under four millenia anyway xD)
Ehlers, get your head out from under a bush; with estimates going as high as 6 billion people living in China alone, the sum total of the world's English speakers may well be far capped by Chinese speakers already ^_^
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Or American for that matter :P Good to see ya dude.
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Ehlers, get your head out from under a bush; with estimates going as high as 6 billion people living in China alone, the sum total of the world's English speakers may well be far capped by Chinese speakers already ^_^
Care to give examples or sources for this magical 6x multipler of the chinese population?
Islam is not the largest religion in the world either, afaik. It's the fastest growing but I suspect either Buddhism or Hinduism are the highest, with their hundreds of millions in India alone, never mind the rest of Asia.
Mainly I'm curious as to why all of you little aussies are taking this so seriously. I know it's hip and cool to hate america but Outcast certainly is being more rude than needed.
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My apologies... I wasn't meaning to be rude, this is just something I feel rather strongly. Godzemo - well, he's just rude always :P
THis isn't meant to be america bashing, just the idea that the american language is miracously going to gain ascendancy over the world when even its parent language, english, doesn't hold that plus history shows that no language gains ascendancy really.
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English has ascendancy already. It is the trade language in China (they have multiple languages, and the two most spoken are Mandarin and English - anyone that doesn't speak [and is, one assumes, rich] mandarin goes for English). In India it is the language of government, a direct result of the Empire - when we moved out the Indians carried on, not changing anything, simply moving a few managers up a few steps to fill the vacant posts. English is also used because there is 30 languages in India so it's easier for everyone to learn English rather than learn 29 other languages. :)
And that is why I think the idea of 'American english ruling the world' is rather foolish. There is not much more world left, and we Brits made our mark rather heavily. China will be the next superpower, so by Saints logic we will all be speaking Mandarin in a hundred years.
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Heh, I actually wouldn't complain about that; Mandarin's quite a nice language on the ears, and fast, even if I can't understand a word of it xD
Also, if you go for the conventional 1-1.5 billion count for China, then Christianity and Islam are, I believe, the world's largest religions. While Buddhism is mostly confined to China and its emmigrants, Islam and Christianity are the primary religions of several dozen countries each, and many of those are quite populous.
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While Buddhism is mostly confined to China and its emmigrants
Try talking to JP about that sometime - he will tell you just how tragically wrong you are.
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Like how China is a communist country that denounces the idea of religion?
Plus, how most Buddhism in Asia, a coninent that is largely buddhist, didn't grow from china? At all?
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If one were pedantic one would note that Buddhism originated in India, and only later transferred to China. And that the whole Islamic area includes perhaps 1 billion at very most.
Also China does not suppress most religions, only religious organisations they feel are dodgy. A little list here (http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_china.htm). My dad was there last week, he said he saw some religion being practiced openly in public parks.
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heavens, sometimes you people can be foolish.
Godzemo, before you tell someone else to get their head out of the bush, perhaps you should either learn what statistics you're citing or read what I'm actually saying, neither of which you've apparently done.
Outkast, uhm... try spanish, portugues, french, italian and romanian to start with. and English may be Germanic in form, but my guess is that about a third of the vocabulary is inherited from romance languages -- Romance in this case being an alternate form of "Roman" meaning "Latin." Latin is still used religiously AND in science circles for terminology.
Plus the Greek spoken today is *not* the same Greek that was spoken by the 1500 years ago, let alone the language that Socrates spoke or Homer wrote in. I would say that Greek is still highly influential (many many languages, after all, use a lot of Greek roots -- though Greek was not the "basis" for Latin) but not as influential as Latin (which is shame, because I can read Attic Greek but not Latin). Islam is roughly seven centuries NEWER than Christianity. That has nothing to do with legitimacy, though. What I'm saying is that the language has crossed borders more. While Arabic has had a very heavy influence on Spanish and Portuguese, it's primary influence in the west is only felt by it's retention of ancient Greek texts while the west didn't have it. I don't think you can reasonably argue that Arabic has as significant an influence outside of Arab and Muslim countries as English does.
Praytell, what points am I ignoring? The fact that there are more people today who speak other languages? I already addressed that. Of your examples, few show that you know how they relate to the topic at hand. The Romand DID own the world for hundreds of years. Alexander, while he conquered the world and spread elements of his culture, did more adopting of near-asian cultures then he did distributing his own, because that's what he wanted to do. The Mongols didn't want to rule the world, just loot it, and they did that pretty well. The Germans tried to rule the world, but never had a big enough chunk of it. Russia, to my knowledge, hasn't tried to rule the world but just chunks of it, and inasmuch as they tried to rule the world, they also did not have enough of it -- though where they had control (like the Eastern Bloc) you'll still find many, many people who can speak to you in Russian. The US has a much longer and influential claim than any of those examples than the Romans.
Oh, and the cheap shot? It wasn't directed at you. If you want to argue what I say, perhaps you should actually READ WHAT I POST. Jam was the one who said that, and I was responding to him.
Ent, you've completely missed my point. I've not said that every resident of the earth will be speaking American English. I said it will be the most politically influential. I also never gave a time span like 50 or 100 years. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that your Brit Eng spellings will be transferred eventually as people have to deal more and more with Americans. This doesn't mean that every citizen will speak American or any other form of English, but those who do international business will.
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My opinion of the Australian education system has dropped considerably.
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To address things I feel Saint E left out (generally, I agree with him):
First of all, Brits, remember my stance on British spelling and punctuation not long ago. That said. . .
To respond to mercury_yume and others regarding the American "departure" from English:
You whine about how we're not intelligent, or competent, or loyal (hah! After the war?) or what-have-you to retain "proper" English. Well, for hundreds of years England was ruled by the Normans, and the official language of England was Norman (or Anglo-Norman, if you talk to certain linguists). Sometimes history texts and teachers (as well as English texts and teachers) say it was the French. This is a nasty historical innacuracy, and if anyone needs me to, I can provide proof of this. Anyways, back on topic. . .
So, Norman was the "English" language, and yet when the Norman rulers of England (*cough*John "Lackland"*cough*) lost Normandy (to the French), the language was eventually morphed beyond recognition and lost into the "flow" of English, giving us Middle English.
Thus (my point): The English have bastardized their own language. They have no right to call Americans to task. And regarding simplification, Modern British English is worlds simpler (in my opinion, at any rate) than either Norman or Old English, and I've studied both.
And for those wondering, English has borrowed significantly from French as well as Norman (both Romance languages), as well as from Latin itself. It has also borrowed from several other Romance languages (such as Italian and Spanish), but to a lesser degree.
To preach that it is difficult to express certain ideas in English without utilizing Romantic terms is an understatement. In the previous sentence, preach, difficult, express, certain, ideas, utilizing, Romantic and terms are all words that come from Latinate languages (borrowed into English). Some could even argue that "an" is a borrowing, but I'm unsure on that one.
For Godzemo:
Modern Hebrew is actually an artificially constructed language, based off old Hebrew. Before the founding of Israel, Jews spoke various versions of Yiddish, though many could read scriptural Hebrew. And as a student of Chinese, I'll add that I disagree with your statement that it's nice on the ears. My Chinese girlfriend, however, does not.
Ent:
China does not suppress religion. However, they tightly control and monitor it. A friend of mine who spent time doing religious work in China has told me that the Christian churches there have government-appointed ministers. And the Communists frequently jail Tibetans carrying photographs of the Dalai Lama.
Okay, that's enough for now.
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I'm disappointed. I was hoping you'd end with "And so we should all start speaking Welsh."
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As it happens, I know that about modern hebrew; the point stands, however, that it is effectively still the same language as ancient hebrew, with a much expanded vocabulary. About Yiddish; that's true... for the European Jews. American Jews spoke English, for the most part.
Oh, and I happen to agree with the idea that English could well become a fairly universal trade language; it has been done before; Using the Roman example, while they were in power, Latin was the trade language for their entire empire.
SE, my apologies for getting the Buddhism comments blatantly wrong :P
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Oh, and you two: Make Bones post here already. If he refuses, sing "Bones, Bones, Bones, Bones, Don't you love to suck the marrow?" at him until he agrees.
Ok Ok, I wanted to stay out...
All of you people who say Latin is dead dont realize that it isnt. Just because French, Romaninan, and Spanish arent perfect technical latin they are amazing examples of bad provencial Latin. For people that lost almost every written book I think they did pretty good keeping ignorence at bay.
:D
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Well, Fuzzy, we really ought to all speak Welsh, seeing as it's obviously the closest we have on earth to the Celestial Language, but that's another topic entirely. . .
Godzemo: You've missed the point entirely. If we took Old English and invented a brand new language based off of it trying to keep true to the original, that doesn't remotely mean that the language has "survived intact" or anything of the sort. Naturally it would be "unchanged" to a degree, that would be the very point of resurrecting it! Hebrew was reinvented (or resurrected or what-have-you). It did not survive unchanged. It died, and only the creation of Israel as a nation for the Jews enabled it to return. A more pragmatic approach would have been to make Yiddish the language of Israel. But instead they reinvented Hebrew. However, that language is less than 60 years old. Hardly 4000!
And a great many orthodox (hasidic) Jews in America also spoke (and speak) Yiddish.
And in case you've missed it, English has become a fairly universal trade language. People who both have differing native languages frequently use English to communicate with eachother. English is considered "the language of business". Granted, this is not perfectly universal, but the trend is certainly there.
English is THE big trade language right now.
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To JadeKnight: I never said English was original...it's amusing that it was mentioned that it was based on Latin, then that it was mainly Germanic...the English language is like the Japanese.:....uh...like Japan in general really...borrowed.
However, the Japanese, while having taken from all different elements of the world, managed to filter out a high level of the crap (Japanese culture and society impresses me, in case people though I was being insulting or something), while the English language is just about the most difficult language to learn.
So rather than being a 'culmination' the English langauge really is a 'bastardisation'...and yet has dominated...and is almost used by the most powerful country in the world. Almost, because they use a 'dumbed down' version.
I suppose it makes a sort of sense to simplify words as the Americans have done, especially to make it easier to use for the rest of the world, expecially when it is enforced and recommended and taught so widely. But it's not English is it? It's not the 'original' English, it's a shell of it's former glory (it's glory being in it's lack of logic). Other languages are adapted but are not still considered the same once adapted, they usually end up called something compeltely different...like Japanese (:P).
That would be why it's called 'American English' I suppose...it's just the retaining the name of the 'base' language confuses it to be 'similar' rather than a different language.
To 42: I agree...I was in it recently.../me shudders
...and to Master Xiao : squee ^_^
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Hmm...Seems I missed locking this one. It goes now, anyway. Not saying I'm not at fault or anything, but that's enough.