Author Topic: Hero *Spoilers*  (Read 2943 times)

EUOL

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Hero *Spoilers*
« on: August 29, 2004, 01:16:55 AM »
So, I started this so we could discuss the theme of the movie.  

Fell:  Yes, putting down the sword as a theme of the movie--but most of the main characters essentially decide that it's okay to conquer for a little while as long as you're doing it in the name of eventual peace.

That's not a new idea--it shows up all the time in fantasy.  (I've thought of using it myself a couple of times.)  However, it makes me uncomfortable--it just sounds too Machiavellian.
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Re: Hero *Spoilers*
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2004, 02:06:47 AM »
I've read several reviews that see it as tyranny propaganda?for the excuses made by dictators throughout the ages, including Hitler and Mao, that you have to break a few eggs to make a...a whatsit.

Yes, the assassins decided not to kill the (future) emperor, but that's because they decided that his tyranny was better than constant fighting. That of course ignores the other option: living in peace by not fighting among countries/states, rather than living in peace because all the other armies get killed.

If the movie was really about putting down the sword, then Jet Li should have been able to walk away without becoming a pincushion.
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Re: Hero *Spoilers*
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2004, 02:45:31 AM »
Well, lets face some harsh realities here: your other option is mostly a pipe dream, since there's simply no way that anyone was going to convince all of the warring empires to suddenly stop fighting and love each other. Ideally yes, that would be good, but when does that ever happen? Maybe I'm a pessimist, but I see violence as a fact of life--every day, probably every minute, peace is kept in the world because someone punches, threatens, arrests or shoots someone else. Even in the Book of Mormon (and I apologize to the non-Mormons for getting into some religious history here), the righteous warriors greatly outnumber the humble pacifists--just a few years after the Anti-Nephi-Lehis won a war by not fighting, Captain Moroni won a war by killing thousands of enemies and executing hundreds of traitors.

In that light, I saw the movie's message as impressively peaceful: sometimes you win a war by dying, the highest level of swordsmanship is to love your enemy, and the end goal of any soldier should be to put down his sword. Is there a level of evil justification in this? I think that's unavoidable--good ideas are always going to get warped by people who want an excuse for their bad ideas.

It's impossible for us to know what would have happened if historical events had gone differently--if Qin had preached peace instead of quelled dissidents, would enemy rulers have listened? If he had failed to unite China, would someone else have done so? Would the empires have spent the last two thousand years killing each other? Which scenario results in more death, and is that even a fair measure of which scenario is "better"? We simply can't answer these questions.

For me, the movie was about one thing: sometimes you have to die in order to help other people do what they need to do--in the surprisingly Christian words of Emperor Qin, Sky showed matchless love for Nameless because he chose to lay down his life for him. Sky and Snow choose to die (or at least fake it, as we later learn) in order to help Nameless get close to Qin. Broken Sword chose to die to teach Snow that peace was preferable to revenge. Nameless chose to die to help cement Qin's reputation and thereby allow him to garner the support he needed to conquer the other kingdoms. If you say that Qin could have spared Nameless and gone on to unite the kingdoms peacefully, I say that such a sign of weakness (as perceived by those who had not yet learned the lesson of peace) would have gotten him killed within the week by his own men.

Let me add an addendum here, just so I don't come off looking like a horrible person--in most situations, such as raising children, I try to use love--Dawn and I have made an effort recently to avoid punishments altogether, and to simply teach our kids why to be good rather than slam them for being bad. In a perfect world we could do that with everyone, from children to gang members to terrorists to tyrants; I simply don't believe that we live in a perfect world. Sometimes you have to fight for what you feel to be right.
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EUOL

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Re: Hero *Spoilers*
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2004, 03:27:26 AM »
Quote
Well, lets face some harsh realities here: your other option is mostly a pipe dream, since there's simply no way that anyone was going to convince all of the warring empires to suddenly stop fighting and love each other.


Yes, but that is no reason to wage war yourself.  I don't believe that all countries will stop fighting and be friends, but they should be given the right to choose their own rulers.  They should also be given the right to come to the realization that peace is better than warfare on their own.  

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the righteous warriors greatly outnumber the humble pacifists


But again, they were told not to go to war without just cause.  Stopping their enemies from squabbling was NOT just cause.  Attacking good people and trying to conquer them WAS.  

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Which scenario results in more death, and is that even a fair measure of which scenario is "better"?  We simply can't answer these questions.


Actually, yes, I believe we can.  As religious people, I believe that MEANS and ENDS are actually equally important.  In other words, doing an evil act cannot produce good ends.  There's a continuum here, of course--sometimes, you simply have to act in order to defend what is right, and innocents will end up harmed.  However, forcing people to see your own way--whether that way is good or bad--is contrary to the spirit of everything I believe.  

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If you say that Qin could have spared Nameless and gone on to unite the kingdoms peacefully, I say that such a sign of weakness (as perceived by those who had not yet learned the lesson of peace) would have gotten him killed within the week by his own men.


Better that he die and let men earn their sins than sin himself and shed the blood of an innocent.

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Sometimes you have to fight for what you feel to be right.


I believe you are corrupting this statement.  What you're really trying to say is "Sometimes you have to fight to force everyone else to do what you want them to."  

Sorry, Fell, but I just don't buy it.  I'm arguing a little bit more strongly than I actually feel--I've debated these motivations myself.  However, my current leaning is that men cannot chose for others--only for themselves.  You should choose to do what is right in the moment--not killing Nameless--regardless of what you worry that the consequences will be.  Providence will protect the man who does what is just.  And if He doesn't, then you have still chosen the better path, and the world will be better for it.

--Addendum.  I agree with most of what you said regarding Nameless's own character climax, as well as those of the Sky and Broken (though I think it was a little bit melodramatic the way their choices played out.  That is why I didn't respond to those points in your argument.)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2004, 03:29:46 AM by EUOL »
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Re: Hero *Spoilers*
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2004, 09:42:40 AM »
My biggest problem with the whole theme of fighting to eventually not have to fight, is that it never happened in China. They still don't have a stable government and every hundred years or so have to fight down an inssurrection of some kind. I'm afraid what it does prove is that war rarely brings lasting peace without some serious rebuilding on the part of the war-wagers. Something China has yet to do.

The first emporer of China committed numurous autrocities. We're talking things that easily would qualify as "crimes against humanity" in current conditions. Building the Great Wall of China is one example. Sure it's a wonder of the world, but it's also a momument to the tens of thousands of people forced in to labor and eventaully died building it.

The film really came off as a film to try and help settle some of China's current problems through propoganda. That being that there are a lot of people in China not pleased with the current state of things.
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Re: Hero *Spoilers*
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2004, 06:30:56 PM »
I too, as you probably guessed, was arguing more strongly than I believed. It makes it more interesting that way. To be honest, I'm mostly just surprised that you all seemed to focus so much on the Emperor's justification of tyranny and so little on the other warriors' changes of heart--I didn't even think about the movie in your terms until you brought it up.

This conversation sparked a lot of interest in me, so I started searching the net for various reviews and articles discussing the controversy behind the film's politics (the reviews I read before seeing the movie didn't mention it at all). A reader comment posted at the end of a particularly harsh review mentioned an interview with the director, Zhang Yimou, so I dug around and found it: http://www.kungfucinema.com/news/2004-05-30-01.htm Apparently, Yimou chose the Qin dynasty solely for its colors and then worked it into a pre-existing story. Once all the controversy flaired up he regretted having chosen Qin, and wishes he would have gone with a less politically charged emperor. In other words, the political problems you see are there, but they're accidental.

Another interesting thing I noticed is that almost every negative review, if it allowed reader comments afterward, was countered by one or more people who claimed to be Chinese natives; invariably, these posters stated that no Western audience could hope to properly understand the meanings or motivations of the strongly Chinese mindset behind the movie. Whether these posters were actually Chinese, and whether the reviewers were actually non-Chinese, I can't say. I simply found it interesting.

And by the way, if we are defining killing as a strictly evil act, then I believe that evil acts can indeed produce good ends: consider Nephi killing Laban, Israel killing everybody they met, and America killing the British in the Revolutionary war. You could argue that in those cases the killing was not evil, to which I would say, my point exactly.
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Re: Hero *Spoilers*
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2004, 06:49:40 PM »
Yes, one of the interesting points brought up in the movie is that sometimes killing can be justified. Well, more particular, that individualism sometimes has to take a back seat for the good of the group. Which of course brings up an interesting quandry.

If you say that those who go to war to force people to get along are all tyrants, then people like Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchhill, and George W. Bush are all tyrants. So where do you draw the line between a great leader and a tyrant?

Also, would China be where it is today without it's tyrants? Would Germany or Japan? I guess powerful people can't help but leave a mark.
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Re: Hero *Spoilers*
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2004, 08:22:58 PM »
     Personally, I haven't seen the movie, but I like the debate that is brought up by it. I agree with Fell that killing is justified and even necessary in some situations. I personally think that everyone has to have something that is that important to them, otherwise they would lose hope and believe that life was meaningless. Even if it was a combination of factors, I believe that any person who is to be happy must be willing to fight and kill for the life that they make for themselves, or for whatever is most important to them. So everyone has to choose for themselves what they are willing or not willing to fight for. It would be even more immoral to stop people from fighting for what they believe. So disagree with what they are fighting for, and fight against them. Just don't say that they are wrong for fighting for what they believe. By the way I am operating under the assumption that if someone is willing to kill for something then the problem is important enough to be worth it.
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Re: Hero *Spoilers*
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2004, 11:38:20 PM »
Quote

Fell:  Yes, putting down the sword as a theme of the movie--but most of the main characters essentially decide that it's okay to conquer for a little while as long as you're doing it in the name of eventual peace.

That's not a new idea--it shows up all the time in fantasy.  (I've thought of using it myself a couple of times.)  However, it makes me uncomfortable--it just sounds too Machiavellian.


Have you heard of Cincinnatus?


In 458 BCE (according to tradition), Cincinnatus, who had been consul in 460 BCE, was plowing his fields when messengers arrived to tell him he had been named dictator to defend the city against the Aequi and the Volscians. He took up the supreme command, defeated Rome's enemies, freed the beseiged consul Minucius, and returned to his farm, all within 16 days. Further, he refused the honors that came with his military victories.
George Washington was sometimes called an American Cincinnatus because he too held his command only until the defeat of the British and, at a time when he could have chosen to exercise great political power, instead returned as soon as he could to cultivating his lands.

Granted George Washington did become president, but he also gave it up quickly
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EUOL

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Re: Hero *Spoilers*
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2004, 03:39:07 AM »
Quote
Another interesting thing I noticed is that almost every negative review, if it allowed reader comments afterward, was countered by one or more people who claimed to be Chinese natives; invariably, these posters stated that no Western audience could hope to properly understand the meanings or motivations of the strongly Chinese mindset behind the movie. Whether these posters were actually Chinese, and whether the reviewers were actually non-Chinese, I can't say. I simply found it interesting.


This is one of the main things that disturbed me about the movie.  It was VERY Asian, something I might be able to understand a little better than the average westerner.  They're right--our social philosophies are very different.  We focus on the rights of the individual, they focus on the needs of the whole.  The concepts presented in the movie disturbed me far more than the actual historical events and/or inaccuracies.

This movie gives some discomforting insights into the culture of a people that everyone assumes will become the next big superpower.  

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And by the way, if we are defining killing as a strictly evil act, then I believe that evil acts can indeed produce good ends: consider Nephi killing Laban, Israel killing everybody they met, and America killing the British in the Revolutionary war. You could argue that in those cases the killing was not evil, to which I would say, my point exactly.


Kindly re-read my posts.  Where did I ever define killing as strictly an evil act?  I believe I said the following:


Quote
In other words, doing an evil act cannot produce good ends.  There's a continuum here, of course--sometimes, you simply have to act in order to defend what is right, and innocents will end up harmed.  However, forcing people to see your own way--whether that way is good or bad--is contrary to the spirit of everything I believe.  


The core of my argument was the concept of forcing others to believe as you do.  Do you have a response to this?

As for your examples.  The British were not innocents--they were foreign invaders.  Nephi didn't kill Laban; God did.  We are commanded not to kill.  God may do as he pleases.  If you wish to get into the theological nature of Abrahamic Tests, then we should shift the conversation to another topic.  However, I don't think you can't use either of your religious examples in this discussion because they are representations of profoundly unusual exceptions.
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Fellfrosch

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Re: Hero *Spoilers*
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2004, 04:09:17 PM »
But EUOL, the existence of exceptions is my whole point, no matter how unusual they may be. Many people have religious justifications for their crimes--just because I happen to believe that Nephi was right in his case doesn't make him a bad example. Now, Qin probably didn't have any specific religious motive for his actions--the movie didn't mention any--but the point is that he thought he was doing the right thing by uniting China. If we're going to overwrite our modern, Western, Christian morals onto him, that just doesn't seem fair.

Forcing other people to believe as you do is, in my opinion, a concept foreign to this movie. It is a movie stating that sometimes you have to kill, and sometimes you have to not kill. Qin himself was not a very good person, and committed (I have come to learn) many "crimes against humanity"; I don't know if mandating his peoples' thoughts were one of these. Modern China, as a communist nation, controls what people are allowed to think and say, but equating that kind of "thought police" with a dictator who killed a lot of people seems like a stretch.

If, on the other hand, I misunderstood your argument, and you're saying that he was controlling people's thoughts by killing those who disagreed with him, then I can see that. But I can also see that in every other war, ever, in the history of mankind. And, as I've already stated, I happen to believe that sometimes you just have to go to war. Would China be a better place today--would the entire world be a better place today--if Qin had died before uniting the seven nations? I don't think we're qualified to make that judgement.

Maybe it is, as you say, the themes of the movie that are the problem, more so than any specific actions of its characters--maybe the idea that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" is so opposed to our American mindset of personal freedom that we simply can't accept it. I look at this movie as a beautiful and moving story about people who makes sacrifices for the greater good; to call that disturbing (or, as one reviewer put it, "a manifesto of evil" on par with Birth of a Nation and Triumph of the Will) seems like a condemnation of China itself rather than of this movie.
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Re: Hero *Spoilers*
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2004, 06:55:31 PM »
Quote
In other words, doing an evil act cannot produce good ends.


I think that is a little shortsighted EUOL. I am going to borrow a favorite Tolkien quote, and say that even the wisest cannot see all ends. I will agree that you do not have to think that the person is good because some good comes of their evil acts, but good does come out of evil. Everyone who is killed leaves more food for those who starve, you just don't know what impact events have on everyone. People adapt their opinions and act differently to suit the environment around them. It is the men who are most impacted by evil who often do the most good, so it would be wrong to say that no good comes from evil acts.
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Re: Hero *Spoilers*
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2004, 08:23:12 PM »
That's an interesting point, Archon. In a sense, evil promotes good because it incites people to fight for the right. That's not really what EUOL was saying, but it's very interesting nonetheless.
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Re: Hero *Spoilers*
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2004, 10:23:37 AM »
So, I watched this last night, and I actually have a different take on it that you guys did:  I don't know how familiar you guys are with Marxism, but I found that this movie parrallels the steps toward pure communism quite well.

First, Marxism teaches that total equality cannot come, under any circumstances, without war or revolution.  In fact, Marxism actually calls for dictatorship in the infant stages, because that is the only way to thoroughly rid the culture of its capitalist ways.  The idea that people can have a change of heart and embrace communism is dismissed as unrealistic.  Instead, all power must be given to the government, who, through dictatorship and war, will purge society of its equality-damaging tendencies.

Eventually, once these the fields have been plowed and the seeds of communism are firmly rooted, there is what Marx called a 'withering away of the state.'  The dictatorship, which has been behaving dictatorially for purely noble goals, steps aside, and the people embrace freedom and equality.

(Of course, the problem with this in the real world, is that communist nations have never really gotten out of the dictatorship stage.  The ruling governments have always corrupted before they relinquished power.)

Anyway, with Marxism firmly stuck in my head, I was wondering if this movie was simply a product of a marxist-founded society, or actual propaganda.  (Of course, the parallels could be coincidental, but I don't believe so.)  Thoughts?
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Re: Hero *Spoilers*
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2004, 02:39:23 PM »
Here's something interesting that I was thinking about:  Obviously, Qin's decision to unite China affected Asia.  But, it may have afffected it in a much larger way -- something really world-changing.  It is generally accepted by historians that one of the main reasons for Europe's domination of the world in the 18th and 19th centuries was because of their constant wars.  Back in the middle ages, there were three "proto-superpower" civilizations: the Chinese, the Arabs, and the Europeans.  The reason that the Europeans emerged as the Super-superpower was because they were always at war.  China was the first to come up with gunpowder, but it was the europeans that really harnessed it effectively as a weapon.  China was the first to get really good at iron work, but it was the europeans that built cannons.  The Chinese, having little need for a navy, never built armadas.  They had no arms race--no technology race.  They just plodded along, maintaining the status quo.  In essence, it was their relative peacefulness that kept them from being the major player on the international scene that Europe was.

So, perhaps, Qin's decision to unite China was actually detrimental to all of SouthEast Asia, since it substantially slowed the progress of the area.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2004, 02:40:44 PM by House_of_Mustard »
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