Author Topic: Endless Hordes  (Read 2818 times)

Mr_Pleasington

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Endless Hordes
« on: December 20, 2005, 01:52:57 AM »
I hate to cross post, but I don't think my littles Endless Stars forum is a frequent visit for most TWG folks.

You all should check it out though since I've posted the link to my Endless Hordes playtest.  I really want some feedback.  You old Warhammer grognards will see some familiar stuff along with some new, fun things too.

Check it out!


Entsuropi

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Re: Endless Hordes
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2005, 12:40:00 PM »
I downloaded it but I leave the country tomorrow afternoon so don't hold your breath on feedback :P
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

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Re: Endless Hordes
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2005, 02:59:51 PM »
Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!

GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Endless Hordes
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2006, 04:53:18 PM »
Rules downloaded, I'll check them out when I'm done doing my week worth of Physics that I naturally put off until the last day.  Feedback by next tuesday, in case I don't have time to read this until monday night (it is, after all, the weekend).
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Mr_Pleasington

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Re: Endless Hordes
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2006, 02:48:23 AM »
Thanks, Gorgon.

Be sure to check out the playtest booklet as it has starter armies and such.

Quite a bit of playtesting and army creation has gone on here at Endless HQ, but I still need a lot of feedback.

Mr_Pleasington

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Re: Endless Hordes
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2006, 02:56:28 AM »
Every day I get excited when I see there's a new post in this forum, hoping against hope that it is your thougts on Endless Hordes, Gorgon.

Every day my soul dies a little bit more...

:(

Spriggan

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Re: Endless Hordes
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2006, 02:58:18 AM »
I wish I had time to play it.  My only free time is Saturday and I'm usually doing Clix then.
Screw it, I'm buying crayons and paper. I can imagineer my own adventures! Wheeee!

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Mr_Pleasington

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Re: Endless Hordes
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2006, 03:00:28 AM »
You don't even have to play...you could just look it over and give me your thoughts.  It's still in rough form, but virtually everything but the campaign system is there to scan.

Spriggan

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Re: Endless Hordes
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2006, 03:01:25 AM »
I can do that I think.

I'll see if I can get to it this month.
Screw it, I'm buying crayons and paper. I can imagineer my own adventures! Wheeee!

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Mr_Pleasington

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Re: Endless Hordes
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2006, 03:04:06 AM »
Cool!

I really don't have much room to talk though. I keep trying to work up some stuff for your new gaming project as discussed via email, but haven't been able to devote any real time to it.

So it looks like we're in the same boat, Sprig.

Spriggan

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Re: Endless Hordes
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2006, 03:07:00 AM »
I haven't even had time to work on that much, I've added a few things but it's been about 3 weeks since I last had any time.
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2006, 12:17:44 PM »
Ok... I downloaded the files, printed em out and stuck them in a ring binder. Feels more real that way.

1) Your files are desperately amateurish feeling. Adding some light formatting, going over the document looking for typos will help with this. For example, you say 'monsters have wounds rather than unit strength' and in the next paragraph say they have health, not mentioning wounds at all. You merged the turn order and game resolution order somewhat, so that it appears to say you set up the battlefield at the start of every turn. And so on.

2) You could try having both Villians and Heroes... with villians having some kind of negative impact on enemy units and heroes having some kind of positive bonus to friendly units as a base, on top of their other abilities when in melee combat. Just a thought. Allows you to have armies with both types...

3) Discrepancies:

Quote
A unit may only be ordered by one hero a turn, even if that order fails.

Quote
Further Orders: -1 for each order a unit recieves after the first.

If your slavishly copying Warmaster rules, it'd be 'for every order a hero makes after the first'. If you mean that a hero can order one unit repeatedly, it's not as clear as it could be.

4) Hero questions: Why can't heroes target each other with spells or shooting? As it is, they can only target units, not heroes on their own. It's a fantasy thing, the two heroes trading spells to the exclusion of everyone around them. Also, they do movement after units, unless they join a unit? This means that they have to join the unit a turn in advance, as it were. That seems unnecessarily cumbersome for some reason.

5) Infantry should have an easier time in forests than cavalry. They don't have to worry about going lame when they go over tree roots too fast. Ditto for almost every kind of terrain.

6) Overwatch - it seems to let you fire twice. You shoot in your turn and then the enemy turn. The description doesn't say anything about not being able to fire in it's own turn, since being 'on hold' just means you didn't move. Is that your intention?

7) Landing fliers - do they pay a movement cost for landing? If not, what is to stop a flier constantly landing behind terrain, never letting enemies get a shot off? I'd prefer to see flying split into 2 or 3 types, with things like Dragons (stay airborne for ages, fight in the air) in one catagory, and gliders (glide from spot to spot, fight on the ground) in the other. That way you can have specialised rules for monsters that never land - like Tzeench floating towers in warhammer (they were in the sea based game).

8 ) Magic - in the tables, does 'basic' refer to army basic or to wizard basic? I assume army? It reads like each wizard gets 2 dice plus his level.

9) Shooting - you don't appear to have any way of an individual unit having more powerful bows at the expense of accuracy. As it is, any hit will do the same amount of power. Easy way around is penalties to the armour value of the target. This could also be used for assassins, magic, shield penetrating ion beams, and the like.

10) I'm not a fan of having 10 ranks for a unit. Thats just a lot of note keeping - you'd have to have a piece of paper with every units health on it, and some way of keeping track of which is which. There's a reason warhammer has almost every common unit running around with 1 wound per model. Less bookkeeping in the middle of a battle.

11) Having a to-hit roll doesn't feel quite right in a mass combat system. Just a vague feeling though.

12) Not all shooting units required perfect line of sight. Longbows, for example, were mass fired in the general direction of the enemy lines and even troops at the back of the regiment could fire. Thats more a special rule for bows though, I guess.

13) 'The best offense is a good defense' <- this makes you look like a smart alec :P

14)
Quote
Some of the smarter monsters may have a special ability called "Intelligent" which allows them to se their MPs as they wish one time a turn

One time a turn?

Also, the whole segment on "3. Orders" in 7.2 is rather.. silly. Those rules seem to be far too generalistic to cover everything that could be counted as a monster. You'd be better off leaving that sort of thing to individual unit profiles.

15) What is the reasoning behind threatening only being within 4 squares for units and 6 for monsters? Is there a reason for it that way versus using the units individual movement score?

« Last Edit: January 22, 2006, 12:19:24 PM by Charlie82 »
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

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Re: Endless Hordes
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2006, 12:19:07 PM »
16) Drifting artillery fire shouldn't drift up to 6 squares. That's 300 yards. I'd suggest using a D6 for direction, a D3 for distance.

17) Structure damage chart is too powerful. You shouldn't be able to take a wall down in one turn, irregardless of how good a shot it is - nobody would ever put troops on the walls, for what would be the point? Also, does result 'Incoming!' mean that the unit gets armour saves, irregardless of the incoming attack type? I'd prefer to have many wall types (ie, magically tuned, mundane, holy) that would give armour saves against certain types of attacks, or a bonus if the units would already get it. So a magically tuned wall would give armour saves versus the Reaping Claw spell (which drags hapless enemies to be devoured by the demon lord Fellfrosch) despite the spells stated rules, and would give a +1 save against the Blazing Eye spell which normally gives saves. Mundane walls would be against siege weapons, magical walls versus magic, holy walls against unholy (I guess unholy walls would work against holy stuff).

I've not looked at the playtest booklet.

In general, Endless hordes appears to be a workable ruleset but it's far too close to Warmaster with Warhammer magic. You'd have trouble selling it commercially without being accused of copyright dodginess. If it's just for you though, ignore this paragraph ;)
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

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Re: Endless Hordes
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2006, 03:02:49 PM »
Here is a sample army I pulled out of my ass (What can I say, i'm bored today). I've tried to avoid typical fantasy cliched armies and create a fairly new one.

I've assumed that when making morale tests, you have to get over your leadership score, and all modifiers are to the actual dice rolled. I've based the stats on the units in scenario 4, modified to fit the abilities of the army. I've based cost values on the idea that you should have a proper army for 1000 points. The silly border pictures I nicked from Codex Exodites, which is a .doc codex some chaps knocked up. The skelt document could do with major tinkering but it's a good first draft for now I think.

I may use the Skelt in future ideas I have, so don't base the world too heavily around them in case I have to ask you to remove them :)
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

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Re: Endless Hordes
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2006, 03:40:36 PM »
Thanks for the feedback, Entropy.

The one thing I should have made clear is that I'm never going to sell this.  This is a project for fun and fun alone.  That's why I some of the rules are blatantly copied from Warmaster and Warhammer.  They're rules I like that I'd never get to use otherwise. This is also why the layout isn't great...plus its a draft.

Some of your points we've hit during home playtest, others are there for a specific reason and I'll get more into that when I have more time.

Thanks for looking it over and for the feedback!