Author Topic: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?  (Read 7665 times)

Sigyn

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Re: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2004, 11:52:24 PM »
I'm sorry, but could you please explain what abortion has to do with miscarriage? If a woman miscarries, she has no need for an abortion because the fetus has already aborted itself. Do you perhaps have your terms mixed up? Also, if there was a law against abortions then it would be illegal regardless if it was humane. There are laws that a lot of people do not view as humane but they are still laws. Wow, I just looked at the beginning of this topic and it had nothing to do with abortion.  I would not have guessed.
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Archon

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Re: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #61 on: September 30, 2004, 12:04:18 AM »
With ultrasound and other medical technology now, I believe that we can predict if a woman is going to have problems with having their baby. They probably have early warning signs and can stop the pregnancy when they find these. This is a guess, but like you said, if she miscarries she doesnt have the baby anyway. So all she has to do is to force herself to have a miscarriage and she will not have a baby anyway. Regardless you cant force her to have a baby.

It wouldnt matter, but we are trying to decide what the laws should be by morality right now. Therefore morality does matter, right now at least.
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Sigyn

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Re: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #62 on: September 30, 2004, 12:14:17 AM »
Um, I think it's harder for a woman to force herself to miscarry than you think, especially without harming herself. Yes, there are ways to determine if a woman will have a difficult pregnancy, but the medical field has progressed enough that the baby can usually be saved. Are you saying that if a woman is going to lose the baby regardless then she should be able to abort the fetus early on so she doesn't have to continue with the pregnancy? I'm having trouble understanding what you're saying.

I'm against abortion personally except in extreme cases such as when the mother's life is in great danger if she continues the pregnancy or some other specific cases. I don't think abortion is moral because I think it is very close to murder. I've been pregnant and I've felt my baby move. He had a personality even before he was born and I always thought of him as a baby. Aborting him would have been murder to me.
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Re: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #63 on: September 30, 2004, 09:07:58 AM »
Archon, I understood what you said in terms of legalizing. What I'm saying is that just because there would be less CRIME by legalizing something, no problems are actually corrected. Just because someone will do something dangerous to themselves in difiance of the law doesnt' mean we should legalize that activity in order to make it more safe.

You've argued several situations in which you say it is POSSIBLE that the life of the baby would be a worse fate than having been aborted. What I've argued is that while that may be true, that even in all the situations you've brought up it is still IMPROBABLE that the baby living his/her life out would be worse than having been aborted.

And your continually bringing up "other scenarios" without actually explaining them or even stating what they are is becoming exceedingly tiresome. If you choose not to discuss those scenarios, than they are non-factors for this argument. They have not contributed to your point, so they do nothing to demonstrate your side. If you feel they will help you, then actually bring them up. Don't try to distract us by saying there are other ideas we haven't discussed yet.

House of Mustard

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Re: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #64 on: September 30, 2004, 10:44:09 AM »
Quote
Do you belive in the death penalty?


It's a different topic, which probably deserves its own thread, but yes, I do believe in the death penalty.  However, I think it should only be used in the most heinous crimes, and only when guilt is certain.
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2004, 12:46:50 PM »
I see,... so there are times when the sanctity of human life isnt that important, like when someone makes a mistake. That seems like a contradiction to your earlier statements.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2004, 12:48:17 PM by ElJeffe »
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Re: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2004, 12:59:50 PM »
oh please, Jeffe. You know you're my friend, but that's absurd. He's not proposing the death penalty for people who accidentally knife their spouse in the face a hundred times or accidentally sell state secrets to an antagonistic political entity.

reducing "heinous crimes" to "makes a mistake" is at best, a misrepresentation. a mistake is thinking it's ok to take the stapler home from the office when you didn't pay for it. a heinous crime is serially raping and murdering people.

I'm not sure where I stand on the death penalty, for certain, but I know that this way of twisting HoM's words is very poor reasoning.

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Re: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2004, 01:16:13 PM »
Thanks SE.  You summed it up well -- I don't think I need to add anything there.
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2004, 03:35:55 PM »
I didnt horrible twist his words... so dont act so shocked because its not that absurd,
To bring a little scripture into it...

"If someone does evil to you, do not pay him back with evil. Do everything possible on your part to live at peace with all.  Never take revenge, my friends, but instead let God’s wrath do it.   Do not let evil defeat you, instead, conquer evil with good."  Romans 12:17-19, 21


1. why is life any cheaper in the case of a convicted murderer. 2. the way the deathDoesnt he have the right to repent too, to  make a mistake... what if the crime was brutal, but in the heat of passion (happens a lot) and he simply couldnt get a good lawyer(happens a lot too) and he happens to be any other color than white. Its about 80 times more likely that he will recieve the death penalty in every state that has it. Is the fact that he couldnt get a good lawyer enough to condemn a man for a crime that a richer man could easily get off death row for.
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Re: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2004, 04:02:37 PM »
your rationality ignores every condition HoM stated as a prerequisite for the death penalty, though. He talked about certainty of guilt and truly heinous crimes. In my mind, while taking a single life is terrible, it sounds like "most heinous" is several steps beyond one count of manslaughter.

You're trying to make a case on a belief that simply hasn't been expressed.

plus, yes, a convicted murderer's life IS weighted less than a baby, in terms of whose life should be preserved. One, he's already given into violent urges, while a baby hasn't had a chance to show whether (s)he would even HAVE those urges. Two, the murderer has already cut off someone else's life, ending their chances to make further choices.

So yes, you either twisted deliberately or didn't read what he actually wrote.

That scripture and sentiments like it is why I'm not sure what my stance is. However, we're also taught to defend our lives and our families and our liberties, even if it takes violence to do so (this is both in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants). It is not so trivial to dismiss the death penalty when it can easily be seen as a defense of society in this tradition. If it is done dispassionately and with careful consideration, it's reasonably seen not as revenge but as justice and defense of society. Many very spiritual figures killed in a court setting as a consequence of the suspect's crime.

So the scripture you posted is not a final word on the matter. It's much grayer than that, so I'm not sure what I believe. However, saying that HoM believes the death penalty should be used willy nilly for any crime, or even any crime that's vaguely serious seems like a deliberate misunderstanding of his words.

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Re: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2004, 05:19:46 PM »

Quote
saying that HoM believes the death penalty should be used willy nilly for any crime, or even any crime that's vaguely serious



I never said that, or meant to imply it. Even by changing the word heinous to mistake I never meant to imply that so Im sorry if thats the interpritation you arrived at.
Its wrong.

First of all I have a feeling that both you and mustard think I am coming at you from the point of view as supporting Abortion (or beign pro choice) and not favoring the death penalty. The truth is im in as much a moral quandry over them as you guys are. When they tried the snipers here in DC I was glad that they were going to stand trial in VA, even though I feel that killing is wrong.

Im conflicted about abortion, feeling that its wrong, but beliving that the government should stop legislating at a point, and that if that legislation is a womans body and her unborn child one day it could be something just as close to home tomorrow, like manditory sterilization or other horrible things.

I have a sticking point with the word heinous. Is there a scale with which you can measure the brutality of crimes? Does chopping an arm off put a person over the line or firing 6 bullets instead of 5 mean your more or less evil or irreadeamable.

I belive what the savior said about loving all men and forgiving them, no matter how evil their deeds.

I belive in progress too, and hope that doctors can cure diseases and conditions that have millions of people on assisted living. But Im a realist and know that those people are a huge drain on their families both monitarily and emotionally.

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Re: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2004, 05:24:03 PM »
well, I wondered, but i didn't assume you had a specific stance. I just don't see the conflict in HoM's potition that you do. It seems well reasoned and consistent, even if I can't believe in it.

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wRe: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #72 on: October 04, 2004, 09:53:10 PM »
I am too lazy to read this whole thread, but was told that it was interesting and I should say something.  So if I make a point that was already made, you'll have to forgive me, or not.

Ookla, you made it clear in your opening arguments that you think that "killing" people before they are born is wrong because you don't know how they will live their life.  While this is true, you could say the same about any means of protection or birth control.  Technically you are killing thousands of possible children everytime you use it, but you aren't complaining about legal birth control killing people.  A baby in the woom is not a person any more than a sperm going for an egg is, no matter what you say.  They are both living things, and you are killing them both by using a means of anti-pregnancy, whether it be abortion and birth control.

Now, you also said that not giving abortion is a way of punishing the irresponsible parents.  Do you really think this is intelligent, at all?  If the parent is angry at the child for ruining their life, how happy do you think that child will be growing up?  And if a person is so irresponsible to have an unwanted  child, do you really think they'll be responsible enough to look up ways to get a child to a better home?

And if it is the parents mistake for having the child, I assume you are pro birth control/protection.  This contradicts your statement about killing babies, because you are killing thousands of potential babies every time.  Even married couples use protection and birth control, so don't give me anything about sex after marriage.  It is a good idea to stay away from it until you are married, but you can still have an unwanted child after being married.

If there are technicalities during a birth, the mother dies.  Are you saying that an innocent women is more suitable for death than an unborn child, which when it is killed doesn't even have a full brain or body yet?

And you have no problem eating cows, or if you're a vegetarian, plants.  You're killing innocent beings there, even plants are living beings, and you are killing them for your benefit.  It's no different here, the mother and father is "killing" a non sentient being for their benefit.  You can't tell me a non born child is worth more than a plant, either, because they are nearly the same.  Neither is concious of it's surroundings and both respond to stimuli.  There's no difference between getting an abortion and chopping down a tree.

It's very unintelligent to ever use any sort of biblical reference to prove anything for two reasons.  Reason A; people believe in different things, and there is no religion that is a majority of human beliefs, every religion is outnumbered by the others, so you'll never win like that.  Reason B;  You can use the bible to prove anything if you want to.  People "prove" that "satan" is to be worshipped with the bible.  People "proved" that committing suicide the night of haley's comet in mass would lead them to eternal bliss with Jesus on the comet.  If I was motivated enough, I could counter every argument you make with an argument derived from the bible.  I mean, didn't Jesus say, "Turn the other cheek"?  So, technically, wouldn't the child not care if it is killed, because it is doing what Jesus said?

Do we really need more people than are WANTED in this world?  I mean, we have enough already.  World hunger, overpopulation, unemployment rates, there's just not enough to go around.  The more people we have, the quicker we are going to destroy the planet, and then we wont have ANY more people.  If a person isn't even wanted here, shouldn't we just save the planet one more person?  I mean, if every child ever concieved is born, we will not only kill ourselves faster, but probably most other species on the planet.  It's much less moral than killing a few developing embryos.
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Re: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #73 on: October 05, 2004, 09:04:48 AM »
ugh. Gorgon, I can't even bring myself to counter such poorly reasoned and spasmodic arguments.

Archon

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Re: Terri's Law overturning/checks and balances?
« Reply #74 on: October 05, 2004, 08:07:12 PM »
I don't see the problems with Gorgons argument. I think that you are being a little snobbish to just dismiss his argument without debate though.
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