Author Topic: review: Ultimate Rifts  (Read 5476 times)

Fellfrosch

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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2005, 01:37:19 PM »
Rifts has no rules that are not in this book (except for expansion-type rules such as new classes and spells, which appear in other books, but that's to be expected from any RPG).
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Spriggan

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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2005, 01:59:30 PM »
Every single core setting book for Palladium is like that too, even the really thin ones like Robotech and TMNT.  In fact the average length for the Palladium rules is less then 100 pages, and nothing ever gets left out since most book are just cut and paste jobs, though Ultimate RIFTS and the new Beyond the Supernatural were complete rewrites.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 02:02:03 PM by Spriggan »
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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2005, 04:02:37 PM »
Uhm... no, that's not true.
The reason I have had strong aversions to playing Palladium has been the lack of explanation for rules. It was true of TMNT, which I do still own, so if you want, I'll go through and tell you what isn't in it. And it's true of PFRPG, for which I believe we even have a discussion on this forum to clarify a rule. The fact that they're cut and paste job has propagated a number of errors and omissions. WHich is why I wish they'd just pay an editor to read through their books once to find glaring problems like this.

Spriggan

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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2005, 08:53:54 PM »
I've got TMNT and Revised Palladium Fantasy and Second Edition Palladium Fantasy, everything that's in their other books is more or less the same.  The version number you have depends on what version of the skill sets you have but besides that just about everything else is the same.  There are exceptions like how Ninjas and Superspies has advanced Hand-to-Hand combat.

I remember the PFRPG discussion and as I remember it me and Fell were explaining a rule that was in the book but you didn't understand, not that there was some rule they left out.  Their rules aren't organized the best so sometimes you have to go searching, but it's no worse the D20 layouts.  Also there are things that aren't even covered by the rules since Palladium's combat system isn't as by the numbers as D20 either (for example there are no grappling rules like in D20, have to make them up yourself).

The rules may not be worded the best, which is true (but I've got a handful of other RPGs that are the same) and you may like the rule(s) it/them self(s) (so it seams confusing as to why its that way) but everything is in their books.  
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 08:56:21 PM by Spriggan »
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Fellfrosch

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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2005, 12:09:53 PM »
At least most d20 books have an index. I'd kill for one of those in a Palladium rulebook.
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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2005, 02:42:07 PM »
here's my complaint from before:

Quote
However, I would like clarification of the "Death Blow" rules. Does it mean you can chose to make any roll of natural 19 or 20 a death blow by surrendering your next combat action? Or do you have to specifically say you're going for a death blow before you roll to hit?
Oh, and another explanation? What is the rule procedure for dodge. All the book explicitly states is that it takes a combat action to dodge. I assume it's a roll against the opponents attack roll. Any bonuses on that? and can you use it if you failed to parry?


NONE of those questions can be answered, at all, by text that is in PFRPG. They are NEVER explained anywhere in the text. That is a case of rules being left out. For a revision, that's pretty sad. Specifically, the dodge question. I assumed right, I think, about how to apply the rule, but I had to assume. It is not ever stated in the text how dodge is actually used, nor how it interacts with other combat actions.

One specific case in TMNT was what your education level means, if anything, in game mechanics terms. There was a way to generate randomly your education, but no explanation other than the table itself. NO explanation. No further description of what each level meant, not even a passing nod to say if it was just for flavor or had an actual game effect.

And sorry, Sprig, the organization of Palladium books is much, much worse than d20 volumes. The index alone makes up for that. But in addition, they have a solid pattern to organizing, that has internal consistency to eahc book. Each one first discusses rules directly regardign character design, then equipment, then combat, then magic, then DM info. Palladium has GM info scattered in with the player info, which is annoying because it means your information becomes more spread out. Character design information is also scattered. To make a character, you're not just looking at different chapters, you're looking at chapters in entirely different parts of the book.

If you want to defend Palladium, at least do it on the basis of defensible items, such as you like the flavor or the approach to the rules. Most of my complaints have very little to do with mechanics and very much to do with the shoddy production quality of the books. If I can't figure out basic things like how to dodge without asking 2 experts on the game, that is a very major flaw in the game.

In summary, there *is* specific information missing from core books in Palladium line, and I find it a serious misstatement to say it's organized as well or better than d20 manuals.

Spriggan

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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2005, 03:11:54 PM »
Wow some one is defensive.  I'm at school now but I can easly find all those rule's answers in PFRPG.  And the Dodge question is answered on the first page of the combat in the combat steps area, in fact there's are bold letters saying step #3 Dodge.  The Death blow is in the combat term glossary a few pages later.

Not sure what's hard to understand about the education levels mean in the games, it's to determine what skills you can take and what bonuses they get.  This is usually explained in more detail in the SKILLS section since the table at the front is a quick start so you can easly get started.  As for not being able to make your own, who says you have to have rules for that stuff?  None of the skill packages are balanced anyway since they're trying to be more realistic, a high school dropout isn't going to know as much as a college grad no matter how much you try and explain it.

I'll agree with you on the index, I still have know idea why they don't have them, but the rest of the organization isn't as bad as you make it out.  How I can tell that it's about the same as D20 is that I have the same trouble finding things in D20 as a Palladium book, in fact they have a similar organization but in a different order.  It's not bad, its just different from what you're use to.

Quote

If you want to defend Palladium, at least do it on the basis of defensible items, such as you like the flavor or the approach to the rules.


If you want to rip them on stuff don't blame them for your poor reading skills, it's not hard to miss that giant dodge section in the combat area.  And while it's perfectly ok not to like their organization you should realize its personal taste and they're not that different.
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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2005, 03:27:47 PM »
I want you to quote for me how those rules work. My point is NOT that it doesn't say there's a dodge, my point is that it says you can dodge, but doesn't say a word about how the dodge is performed. You quote me page number, column, and paragraph, i'll verify in my copy and feel foolish. But it won't happen, because the rules aren't there. They aren't in the book.

And you just illustrated my point. Yes, there IS a purpose for the education, but the TMNT book doesn't say what that purpose is. That is what I'm saying about there being rules missing. They mention the rules, but they don't tell you what those rules are. Not how they work.

Incidentally, I didn't say you couldn't make your own. I've no idea where you get that. My point, which you seem to have missed repeatedly, is that it mentions that there *is* a rule on the subject, but the book lacks any statement of what the rule actually *states*. I'm fine with winging things that aren't specifically covered. Just dont' tell me that there's a rule for it and then don't say what that rule is. It's like telling someone they can get called offsides in Football, not telling them how they can violate the offsides rule, and then telling them they can't read because they didn't know how they could be offsides.

And no, I'm not bagging on Palladium just because it's organized "different." I'm sayign the organization is shoddy. WoD is organized different, Warhammer is organized different, West End Star Wars was different. It's not that it's different that I don't like it. It's that they take thematically similar sections, sections you will use together quite frequently, and they shunt them to different parts of the book. That is poor organization, no matter how you slice it. D20 doesn't do that. They put it them near each other, and they tell you how to get there. To paraphrase you, Don't blame d20 for your poor reading skills, they've done anything a reasonable book can.

Fellfrosch

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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2005, 03:34:53 PM »
I agree with Spriggan here on everything but the organization--Palladium books are typically very unorganized, with all kinds of weird things spread out all over the place. They're getting better, but it's still a valid complaint.

As for dodge rules, I can't speak for PFRPG because I don't know it as well, but the dodge rules for all of the other books are pretty well-labeled and explicit. I have Splicers here at my desk, so I'll check that...Step #3: Defender may Parry, Dodge, or Entangle. The rules make it fairly clear that you have three options when somebody attacks you, and that you can only choose one of them, and then it explains what happens in each case. So while your complaint may be valid for PFRPG (like I say, I don't know it as well and don't have it here to check), it has been corrected in recent books.
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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2005, 08:09:34 PM »
well, then, that finally answers my real question. I'm glad they're doing better on that too.

For the record, my observations were accurate. Here is every word I can find in the entire PFRPG book about dodge, the problem extends to parry as well:
Quote
STEP 3: Defender may Parry, Dodge or Entangle

Any time an attacker rolls a successful hit, the defender can choose to parry, dodge, or entangle.

Parrying can be done automatically by anyone trained in any form of hand to hand combat. A parry blocks the attacker's strike, preventing damage from being inflicted. For example, a punch can be blocked by the character's hands or arms. A weapon attack (sword, axe, mace, etc.) can be parried/blocked by a shield, sword, or other weapon or object held in the defender's hand. A weapon should only be parried with another object. Trying to parry a weapon with one's hand or arm is likely to result in a failed parry and the usual amount of damage being inflicted by the weapon. Parrying a weapon barehanded is dangerous and all such attempts are without benefit of the character's parry bonuses.

A parry can be performed without wasting a melee attack/action. Characters with no hand to hand combat training will lose their melee attack every time they parry.

Energy attacks such as magic fire balls, dragon's breath, eye beams and so on, cannot be parried, but can be dodged.

Defending by dodgeing or entangling means automatically giving up the next melee attack. Entangle means the character actually pins or snares an opponent's weapon(s) or arm.

A dodge means the character physically moves out of the path of the attack. Each dodge uses up one of the character's attacks per mele round. So constantly dodging means the defender has no opportunity to attack.

Note: The defender can only defend against attacks within his line of vision. Attacks from the rear cannot be parried, dodged or entangled. The defender always wins ties when parrying, entangling, or dodging.
(page 43)

The only other time I see the word "parry" in the combat chapter is in the sentence where a roll lower than the A.R. of the target "would strike, unless parried..." (same page)
No where are there any rules for determining whether a parry or a dodge successfully avoided the blow. In the list of "Combat Terms & Moves" Entangle appears, and is described, but neither dodge nor parry have an entry here (though there are rules for grappling, they just call it "body block/tackle").

so yeah, missing rule.

Incidentally, I was wrong in fact about TMNT but the charge still sticks. There's no table about education levels in TMNT. There's only this cryptic statement: "The Educational Level reflects the character's years and intensity of study. This directly translated to the education al bonus and the number of skill programs a character can select. The one time bonus is applied to All scholastic skills. Do not add this bonus to secondary skill," and this sentence: "select as many skill programs as allowed by your character's Educational Level; usually 2 or 3 programs. Remember to add the educational skill bonus to each of these Scholastic Skills." (both sentences are found on page 17).

so uh... yeah... how do you determine your character's educational level or what the actual bonus is? You'll have to buy a different book, because it's not in TMNT.

that's my point. I've bought two Palladium books, I've found major omissions from both in terms of rules. Rules that are part of the core system of play -- not necessarily making the game entirely unplayable, but certainly making it difficult to be enthusiastic about it. That is what's made me grumpy about Palladium, and that's why I'm glad to hear that Ultimate Rifts if fixing it.

by the way, all the worst grammar mistakes and strange formatting decisions in my quotes represent exact copies from the books. Kevin siembieda has always needed a half-decent copy editor, but his refusal to ever use one is another issue that makes me grumpy

Spriggan

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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2005, 07:00:21 PM »
What version of TMNT do you have SE? There are 3 I think and each slightly different in how they handle skills.
edit lets see, looks like all the skill stuff is handled on page 9 if you've got the revised edition. [/edit]

For how dodge works check PFRPG page 44 under the header Combat Sequences.

Quote
Step 3: The character under attack can attempt to roll a parry or dodge.  The high roll wins.  Defender allwayse wins ties.


Let me add that my favorite RPG rule is in that step and it should be a standard rule in all RPGs.  Defender allwayse wins ties.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 07:11:24 PM by Spriggan »
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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2005, 09:16:11 PM »
Yes, well, that's a *little* better. But what, you just roll the dice? How many? What size? Any modifiers?  Yes, on that last one, it's listed 28 pages away, in a completely different section of the book. This is what I mean about bad organization. Not only does it not even MENTION how the roll is made, but what information contributing to how that roll is made that is in the book isn't referenced even though it's not even in the combat section.

So there's still missing info. And it reinforces my poorly organized argument.

Spriggan

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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2005, 12:41:43 AM »
The info about dice rolls are all made two pages previous to that on on page 42.

Stop nit picking there isn't missing info, I keep pulling out page numbers for your questions and you keeps saying "well there's still stuff not on that page!" so I point you to another page.  It gets old, there's not much point to it since no matter how many times I do it you'll demand another page about something else instead of just reading the stupid book.

So in other words: I win, you loose, deal with it.
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Fellfrosch

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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2005, 01:27:27 AM »
The more page numbers you pull out, though, the more it reinforces the fact that the information is scattered across several different pages. So the part about poor organization still stands.
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: review: Ultimate Rifts
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2005, 09:01:20 AM »
I don't recall anythign on page 42 about what dice are rolled for dodging. Can you quote it?