Author Topic: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at  (Read 16510 times)

stacer

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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2006, 06:55:13 PM »
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My feeling is, why pay $0.40 to have someone tell you they don't like your writing? I've talked to dozens of published novelists, both national and LDS and not one has recived an acceptance via SASE.


Yes, but many have received personalized rejections via SASE, in which an editor who felt the writer had potential told the writer "keep it up, keep submitting; here are the strengths and weaknesses of your writing." An agent is actually *more* likely to do such a thing these days in which the editor's slush pile is so large that they (I) can't give personalized rejections.

If all you're doing is keeping track of the number of rejections, by all means, don't include a SASE. But you're missing out on the potential of developing a relationship with an editor (or agent) if you're on the cusp but not quite there. Perhaps some might email as opposed to sending the SASE back, but personally, I write a letter and there are many editors out there who do.

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This particular presentation was focused on novel submissions to agents and publishers.


You might not have known this from my post, but I am an editor. I participate here on these boards because the regulars here are friends of mine in real life. I give only one editor's opinion, but it's valid for my company and for many that I've had connections within. I can't speak to the including a picture with your query to an agent, as I'm not an agent.

I think the thing we all agree upon, though, is that the story comes first, and the fact that the writer is a professional is almost as important. As one of my authors, Dan Willis, said on a panel yesterday at LTUE, "if you're looking for a secret to success, there is no secret." It's hard work and professional behavior, and no shortcuts about it.
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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2006, 02:14:57 AM »
Savage Beast!!!

Jules and I were just checking out TimeWasters and saw you! How cool! Well, we just wanted you to know that four of us tried the query packet and for sure we'll report and tell you how it worked. Actually, one of us has already recieved a very personalized email from one of the editors. Interesting...we'll tell you how it goes from there. Thanks for the advice.
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precious-jules

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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2006, 02:59:23 AM »
Hey y'all!  I am new here as of today.  Brandon, Eric and Stephanie told me to join up since you guys were so much fun!  Well, as I was browsing, I noticed my dear friend Jeff Savage was here too!  Hi Jeff!!  I was thinking of your no SASE deal and I thought up the top ten reasons why no one should EVER include a SASE! ;D

1-trees . . . nuff said, okay okay not enough said.  Sincerely you would think in this day and age, we would have grown up enough to use a computer.  We are past the crayolas and number two pencil stage.

2-paper cuts.  I hate paper cuts.  I am so betting that editors and agents hate them too.

3-Postmen.  Think on the poor postmen carrying those heavy cumbersome rejection letters.  I mean I know we, as writers, hate them, but those guys have to lug those letters through sleet and snow and rain . . . think on all the workman's comp bills and lawsuits we are saving the government.  This results in saving our own tax dollars to be put to better use in paying $800.00 for toilet seats (those seats had better sing moon river to us when we sit on em!)

4-schizophrenia. Authors already have the reputation of being insane by talking to people in their heads and doing what the voices tell them.  We perpetuate this rumor by sending OURSELVES rejection letters with the return address written in our own handwriting.

5-guilt.  I truly think these editors feel bad for knowingly causing the starving populace of authors to be even more broke due to the expense of unnecessary postage stamps.  We are saving them a ton by not putting them through this.  They'll sleep better.

6-overeating.  I don't know about you all, but I eat a box of twinkies and drink a two liter of dr pepper every time I get rejected.  By not sending the SASE, I am sparing myself the inevitable heart attack.

7-money.  I know we already mentioned how the editors feel guilty, but just think about my poor shoeless child walking the street with his tin cup selling number two pencils since we can't afford a computer due to all those stamp books we bought last year.  It's heart rending.

8-Nobody else does it!  Lets get real!  This is the only business model in America that insists you send a return addressed stamped envelope with your rejection in case they decide not to hire you.

9-education.  We are sending enlightenment to all the editors and agents who have not yet learned the value of email technology. We are creating a new generation of email users and that in and of itself is a worthy cause to undertake for those people who really care about the trees in Madagascar.

10-Seinfeld.  Everyone knows that if you lick enough envelopes, you're going to die. We are actually saving countless lives of the editors and agents that we depend on to publish our work.  If we kill em all off, what's left for us?  We're artists, not murderers. ;)
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Savage Beast

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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2006, 05:07:21 PM »
Stacer, great to meet you. I read all your comments and agree completely with everything you said. Who do you edit for?

I agree that you are potentially losing out on some comments if you don't include a SASE. Although it's funny, I actually had people contact me recently and one recived her first e-mail reponse and it was a rejection. Then another actually had an agent send a letter on the company dime and it was another rejection. Go figure! My experience has generally been that meaningful feedback usually comes only after sending 3 chaps or fifty pages, or the whole ms., but I have no problem either way.

You and I are in complete agreement on the true decider being the quality of the writing. The best wrapping paper can't disguise a lousy gift.

But I still say that a lot of quality writing never makes it in front of the agent/editor because the query stinks. If you give a quality single page excerpt, a blurb that really sells itself, and a short professional query letter, along with a 5x7 or 8x10 that looks professional, you will have more info requested.

Just as an FYI, I'm still learning alot. So I by no means consider myself the final word. I have published three LDS novels. I have a national supernatural thriller with Jacky Sach at Bookends, LLC right now. We came really close to getting picked up by Bantam, and got some great feedback from Berkley and TOR.

I think  my problem with that particular novel was that I was too much between genres. It was 50/50 horror/procedural thriller. The comments I received were like, "Loved the story. The characters were great. Very creepy ending. But we really don't have a slot for it." Bantam asked for some changes but had just published something very similar.

Right now, I'm finishing the second book in my LDS mystery series and then will be sendy Jacky a new national that is straight horror. So we'll see. Hey Jules!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 05:22:26 PM by jssavage »

Parker

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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2006, 08:58:57 PM »
Not that my opinion matters or anything, seeing as how I have nada published, but the very idea of sending out a photo of myself comes across as creepy-weird.  I can easily picture an editor/agent/slush pile sorter opening up my "packet" and laughing.  Not that I look that funny, but it's not like I'm auditioning for a leading role in a sitcom or anything.  On the other hand, I have a *very* hard time picturing the same person opening up a query from me and saying, "Gee.  This is good.  If he'd put a picture of himself in, I would have taken him up on this."  See what I mean?

Egg_Fu

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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2006, 09:19:15 PM »
Stacer's my editor.  She edits for Mirrorstone Books, a new-ish young reader imprint of Wizard's of the Coast.  

You know, I'm kind of torn on the SASE thing, because both the reasoning for and the reasoning against make sense when looked at in certain lights.  Me, I'll just send 'em 'cause, well, that's what they ask for and I really don't care if I actually get it back or not.  The $0.40 is not exactly gonna put me in the poor house.

The one thing I find iffy is the advice to send a photo.  I always assumed one of the perks of being a writer is that you don't have to be in the public eye.  To think that one of the considerations for being offered a contract is the way I look?  That actually irritates me.  Appearance is a consideration for so many things in life -- can't we geeky writers just hide in our little caves and write good books and not have to worry about being judged by whether or not we have the good fortune to be photogenic?  I don't think I'd actually want to write for a publisher who would try to market based on a writer's appearance and not a writer's work.  But that's just me.  I guess, if you do have movie star looks, whatever works . . .

I agree with Parker, also. We're not auditioning for a TV or movie role.  If I were an editor who got a submission with a photo, I'd roll my eyes and be automatically biased against them.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 09:20:59 PM by Egg_Fu »

Savage Beast

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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2006, 11:17:33 PM »
Good to meet you all. Mirrorstone looks great. Very impressive web site. I know Wizards of the Coast but hadn't seen the YA imprint before. I also didn't know that WOC did horror. I'll have to see if I can get a copy of Dark Memories sent over after Sep. when you start taking submissions again.

By all means, if you are uncomfortable with some piece  of my advice, don't take it.

As far as marketing, it'll probably depend on the publisher, but my experience is that you have to do most of it yourself, and most of it is in person. I don't have anything like movie star looks, but I have to give presenatations, do signings, drive from store to store for  meet-and-greets, do school presentations, etc.

And most booksignings are not like I picured them. If you don't get up from behind the desk and sell your books (and yourself,) you end up pretty lonely.

Also, every time you send out press, they want an author photo along with the cover of the book. In the hard copy of this Des News article,

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635159507,00.html

my author photo was about about 4x8. The book cover was only about 2x3 1/2.

The only thing relating to my books I get to do in private is write them.

Parker

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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2006, 12:03:05 AM »
Savage, I'm curious where this idea for sending a photo came from.  I've been looking into all of this for a couple of years and talked to quite a few authors, agents, editors, etc.--and this is the first time anyone's suggested anything about sending a pic of myself along with my submission.  I can definitely see how being a capable self-promoter would help with sales once you're book is published.  It's not so much that I want to say your suggestion is bad--I'm just interested to hear where you're coming from.  Have you talked with many people who advise this?  Is it just something that worked for you?  That sort of thing.

Savage Beast

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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2006, 12:08:45 AM »
I hadn't heard of it when I did it, or maybe I had and just didn't rember where. But since then, I've heard it from lots of agents and authors. I still think it's a big minority, but that makes it stand out a little. It is not the standard and no one will say, "Hey where's the picture in this query." But I also don't think anyone will laugh.

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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2006, 12:30:11 AM »
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Not that my opinion matters or anything, seeing as how I have nada published, but the very idea of sending out a photo of myself comes across as creepy-weird.  I can easily picture an editor/agent/slush pile sorter opening up my "packet" and laughing.  Not that I look that funny, but it's not like I'm auditioning for a leading role in a sitcom or anything.  On the other hand, I have a *very* hard time picturing the same person opening up a query from me and saying, "Gee.  This is good.  If he'd put a picture of himself in, I would have taken him up on this."  See what I mean?


Actually I hope more people do send in pictures, we had quite a time making fun of people who sent Stacer pictures with their queries last night at the TWG party.  We also decided that if you dress up as all your characters it help your chances of entertaining the editors before they toss you submission.
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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2006, 02:57:10 AM »
Hi, I'm new here. I just wasted a disgusting amount of time reading a million posts, so I think this group is aptly named.

Thanks to certain cool people at LTUE who invited me to join.

As for agent queries, I'm right in the middle of that whole process, and it's enough to make a man want to leave his wife and start smoking doobies. I've done neither of those things yet, but I did get some pretty bad gastro-intestinal problems in the last week. This is a cruel, miserable, brutal business.

I highly respect Jeff "EatsLikeA" Savage, but he and I agree to disagree on the SASE and photo thing. In my opinion, the SASE has no downside, only upside. I doubt any agent has ever decided to request a manuscript because there was no SASE, but I bet some have decided NOT to request it because there was no SASE. I think you risk your sense of professionalism if you don't send one.

As for the photo, I can't articulate my thoughts. But it just seems like something the psychos who get those cheesy studio glamour shots would do.

Final analysis: Jeff "SmellsLikeA" Savage has an agent, I do not. Maybe we should listen to the guy. The man has huevos the size of Mt. St. Helens. (He's an excellent writer, by the way, and a good friend)

stacer

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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2006, 04:10:34 AM »
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 If I were an editor who got a submission with a photo, I'd roll my eyes and be automatically biased against them.


I wouldn't say I'd go as far as being automatically biased against them, but I have found it rather cheesy to have a photo included, because it really doesn't matter to me. I've talked with a few contacts with contacts in New York who say they've never heard of it. Certainly, it's not going to hurt your chances of getting your writing looked at *if* the writing is good--in my own case, I look at every submission, and if the writing stands out, then I take a closer look, and if it doesn't, I won't--but I will say that other than perhaps rolling my eyes at it, I pay very little attention to it, because if my authors go out in public, I assume they know to shower, and the rest is icing. :) Really, once you get to the promotional stages for a book, then you can worry about getting a nice picture taken if your picture will be on the cover or in the newspaper, but that comes much, much later.
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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2006, 01:05:07 PM »
Wait, we have to shower?  Well, there goes all my promotional plans....

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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2006, 03:32:38 PM »
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Wait, we have to shower?  Well, there goes all my promotional plans....


So that's why my signings go so poorly! Do I have to use soap or can I kind of just jump in and out?

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Re: Ten tips guaranteed to get MS looked at
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2006, 10:09:59 AM »
I just feel compelled to repeat my stance:

the 40 cents, and the minimal amount of paper and "no one else does it" are the closest I've seen to valid arguments.

But come on, who can't find 40 cents by looking through their couch cushions or desk drawers? And seriously, how many trees can you possibly kill by including an envelope. It would take a million of them to equal one tree.

And your query isn't a job application. It's trying to make a sale. You have a job. You're self employed. YOu're trying to get someone to buy your product. I get all kinds of flyers at work trying to get me to go to a conference or buy their products. The response letters have postage paid on them

You get the benefit of knowing exactly what's going on with your manuscript. I'm not talking about keeping a track of every rejection, I'm talking about being informed of the status of the product you're trying to sell, so you can act responsibly and intelligently about it.

finally, I *cannot* see how not including a SASE has anything to do with whether an editor would look at it. If anything, a particularly lazy editor might say "well, he's not expecting a response, so I don't need to even read this one." and move on. I can't see negatives to including a SASE, only benefits. I can't see any benefits to not including one, only negatives.