Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Writing Group => Topic started by: guitarbabe on January 25, 2006, 07:26:06 PM
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Hey guys, sorry if I'm overstepping my bounds, but I JUST wanted to make sure that everybody who's interested in this kind of thing got the word...and you can delete this after today or whatever...
Jeff Savage is speaking at 7:00 tonight (January 25th) at the Provo library on the second floor, and he's going to give ten tips that are guaranteed to get our manuscripts looked at. AND (I love this part), he says one of the tips is so outrageous that the majority of us would be too scared to try it. I'm dying to know what that is...
Anyhoo, that's the scoop!
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That'll be at the League of Utah Writers meeting, right?
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Post the Ten Tips here!
Post the Ten Tips here!
Post the Ten Tips here!
Post the Ten Tips here!
Post the Ten Tips here!
Skar continues chanting until his boss slaps him.
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Here's one:
Lace the manuscript with white phosphorus and pack it in an airtight container, so it bursts into flame when opened, thus saving the editor/agent the trouble of having to actually reject the manuscript. But they would definitely look at it while it burned.
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Ha ha! Now, that could just possibly work!
For those who can't make it, I'll post 'em.
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Okay, I got some really good notes from Jeff Savage's lecture...if any of you are familiar with him, he wrote 'Cutting Edge,' 'Into the Fire,' and 'House of Secrets.' And from what he said, I definitely WANT to read his 'House of Secrets' one, but that's beside the point...
Yeah, yeah, I probably should be going to bed, since I have to wake up pretty early tomorrow (I just got out of this clash party--we were supposed to wear clashing clothes...and I wore every different shade of red imaginable), so now I'm wired, so I might as well do something useful with my time, right? Just excuse whatever typos you might get.
Soooo (rub hands together because these were really good)...
#1 (It starts out kind of normal, but these first few are still important because it's what the agents/ publishers are looking for when they ask for the first fifty pages...AFTER you send them the killer query letter, which we'll get to later...)
Know the audience that you're writing to, know the competition, AND what makes you different AND what makes you the same (in a good way). Who is selling? Who are these writers and what are they writing? And then see who is publishing them. Find out who publishes your stuff (Okay, we know THAT one...maybe).
#2 Remember that the beginning of your book is all part of the sale's process. Your first sentence, should get your reader to read the second. Your first paragraph, should get your reader to read the second paragraph...and so on.
Do not start your book with a flashback or a dream, start where the action starts. You want to pull your reader in (and initially the agent or publisher) and leave them wanting more. Every time you have a flashback, it tugs you out of immediacy.
#3 Do not try to take unearned emotion. This means, don't start the scene with a guy weeping bitterly for his dead wife. Start the scene with the guy and his wife playing some board game together or something, show them teasing and flirting with each other and then after a page or two, kill her off. Then, the reader will be sad along with the character.
#4 Enter the Scene late, and leave it early. Movies do it all the time. It takes a while for the reader to figure it all out, but they are still pulled in immediately. You don't need all that scenery and setting. The readers can figure things out, so start in the action. Pull them in. Again, this is what the agents/ publishers are looking for.
#5 Get rid of typos, especially in the first fifty pages. No distractions. Clean it up (if you have to, read the pages out of order, so that you can concentrate on the typos and not the story.
Use 24 lb (I hope I said it right) bright white (95 white) paper of the highest quality to show that your story is quality. Make it stand out.
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Okay, once again, I'm hoping this is alright for me to submit...the last post was too long, I guess? If this is something you don't want posted here, feel free to delete it webmasters. I just think this is exactly what I was looking for.
Okay:
#6 Just because agents ask for the first fifty pages, doesn't mean that you have to get to the BIG moment in the first fifty pages. What is an agent looking at? An Agent wants to be pulled into the story, see that it's unique, and that the writing is good quality.
A good thing to do is to take the first fifty pages of your story and give it to your target audience (preferably ones who don't fear your wrath or think everything you do is perfect), and then have them mark it with red everytime the story lags or they get bored...and then fix it.
#7 Your query letter is your sale's pitch. Make it good. No matter what they ask for, send this...don't waste your money on sending a whole ms or waste yours and the publisher's time...just send this query package in and you will get results. If they are interested, they will ask for the first fifty pages:
The four things your query package must contain, and it must be in this order, so that it WILL be seen in this order:
A. First page: Submit one page of your book that is the most gripping...put the page numbers beneath...basically make it look like you just jerked it from your manuscript and stuffed it in. It's a writing sample.
B. Second page: Make a blurb (the kind you would read on a jacket cover of a book). Make the book sound unique, exciting.
C. Third page: The actual query letter. Keep it short and to the point. Title, page numbers, why you considered this agent (if necessary), possible marketing plans (especially if it's a smaller publishing company)
D. Fourth page: An 8x10 photograph of yourself. Agents/ publishers want to know if you're presentable. Why? Because if you can hack the marketing process (booksignings, interviews, meeting the public), that's most of the battle for selling a book. Publishers are looking for a product that they can sale and YOU are part of that product. No, you don't have to be a supermodel or anything like that, you just have to look capable, presentable...you get the picture.
#8 Do not send in a SASE. His reasoning?--when you ask a girl out on a date, you ruin your case when you say "Just in case you're not interested, here's an easy way out." He asked all those who had been published before if any of them had gotten an acceptance through a SASE. None of us had.
If the publishers/ agents were interested, they just called us or emailed us or tried to get a hold of us as quickly as possible. THEY DID NOT USE THE SASE! If you don't hear back from these agents, it just means that they're not interested. Who wants to get a rejection letter in an envelope addressed in your own handwriting anyway? Don't betray yourself.
Someone brought up the point, "Yes, but what if they decide to give you some good input?--he said, that unless they read the first fifty pages (which they have to ask for or they won't read it), it's basically useless at this point.
This was actually the tip that he said most of us wouldn't do, and he told us that if we REALLY wanted to put in a SASE we could, but it's just a waste of a stamp and another rejection that we'll get in the mail to spoil our day.
#9 Send out simultaneous submissions. If not, you're wasting your time (this was a BIG surprise to me...and so I asked some of the authors afterwards, 'Yeah, but what if they get mad?'--and they said, 'Well, then you can cross them off your list.'). Hmm?
He said if you know what you're doing, you can send out twenty at a time, but for beginners, maybe just five.
Oh, and this is important. Research these potential agents/ publishers before you send them your ms. Google them and see if anyone has had any complaints against them. Be careful of swindlers.
#10 And then finally, when an agent or a publisher asks for the first fifty pages and THEN they reject it, ask them why and then offer to make those changes and ask if they would THEN be willing to consider it?
If not, make those changes anyway and then try other places...and don't be afraid to try the original place again after you've made even more changes (and cite those who asked you to make those changes).
Just be polite, get a thick skin, do the work and ask the publishers/ agents if they're interested yet...yet...yet?--Be sure to tell them that you've made important changes to the book. And of course, this is ONLY after they've asked to see the first fifty pages.
PS: Don't be in a big rush to get a rejection from the editor (after you've turned in the fifty pages). The longer it takes to get back to you (after they've accepted the fifty pages), the better your chances are. So, just go on to your next project and wait.
PSS: More people are making a living as a professional baseball player than as an author. So go for it! Though you just might have to get a side job.
So, those are the tips. I think I'll try them out. I'm still nervous about that stinking SASE, but I'm going to think of this as an experiment, ya know? I'll tell you how it goes...if I get blacklisted or not, huh?
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If by simultaneous submissions they mean sending out different stories then that's fine, but if its the same story then that really shows a lack of professionalism and understanding the businesses. Heck even I know you don't do that and I don't write, the editors on our site (ookla, Stacer) will tell you that doing it is crazy and the others (like SE and 42) will tell you that there are legal reasons why you don't do it. But who knows maybe that works with LDS publishers, the market here is much stranger then the rest of the world so it wouldn't surprise me.
Besides that everything else he said doesn't seam all the new or shocking I've heard it before, but do have a brother that's published and hang out with a lot of people trying to get published so take that for what it's worth.
http://jeffreysavage.blogspot.com/
http://www.jeffreysavage.com/index.htm
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Thanks for posting those, guitarbabe. Your notes are a whole lot better than mine.
Just to clarify the simultaneous submission point, there is nothing unprofessional in sending out simultaneous queries about the same manuscript. I believe that's what he was talking about, rather than simultaneous submission of the full manuscript.
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Two things: if you send a photo of yourself, I'll think you can't let your writing stand for itself (plus, I'll just think it's a little weird). And if you send me a picturebook, I'll know that you didn't read our guidelines, which clearly state that we don't publish picturebooks. So the rule is, like I said on the other thread: write a good book. Submit it. Repeat.
All his rules are okay enough, I guess. Certainly it'll help people present a more professional package (except the picture thing). Simultaneous submissions are okay if they're noted on the submission, but you'll also note that if you read our guidelines, we never want a full manuscript, just 3 chapters and a query, with a synopsis of the book and a series proposal. So like Eric and Sprig said, don't simultaneously submit manuscripts. Queries are okay.
One thing that he didn't say that I wish he had, because so many writers ignore them--can you guess what it is?--though he did hint at it: read the publisher's guidelines. I can't stress that enough. If they didn't ask for it, and you send it in, you're that less likely to work for them in the future, especially if you send something every few months. I start to remember, "wait, didn't I just tell this person we don't publish that?"
Oh, and if your book isn't good and you don't send a SASE, I'm just going to throw it away, so you're taking a chance with not sending the SASE. If you want to know my response, calling or emailing to follow up is usually not a good idea, and my slush turnaround is quite long because I'm booked solid through the next several years. So, if you don't mind just sending something out into the void and never knowing if it was rejected, sure, don't send a SASE. But that's not going to increase your chances of acceptance, and if it's not a good book on its own, you just won't ever hear from it again.
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Oh yeah, thanks Eric!
He was talking about simultaneous queries. Although I think it's interesting, Stacer that you say if they DON'T want the book, they want the SASE. So, I guess if you're still looking for feedback from a query, go for it.
Just a question, Stacer? Do you give feedback on queries? It would be interesting to know.
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It occurs to me that his reasoning for not sending a SASE are very ... odd. Of course you don't get a response by SASE if they want to buy. WHy would they do that? YOu send the SASE so you can keep track of what's happening with your ms. And who really expects an editor to call them up and tell them they don't want to buy?
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Just a question, Stacer? Do you give feedback on queries? It would be interesting to know.
Depends on how much time I have. We don't have an editorial assistant, so I have to do it myself, which isn't at the top of my priority list. I just yesterday took the afternoon to go through a shelf-full of slush, and only had enough time to put in form letters. I wish I could give more detailed feedback for people with promise, but usually I just don't have enough time. But the SASE isn't even for my feedback. It's to know you can cross that publisher off your list and move on to the next one.
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"There are three rules for writing a novel. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."
--W. Somerset Maugham
Generally speaking, and meaning no disrespect to Savage or anyone else, any author's experience is extremely limited to their own publisher or the various publishers who rejected them. Consequently, they know what their publisher likes and doesn't, and they "know" what didn't work with other publishers they submitted to. Hence, I don't really believe much publishing advice authors offer. I'd put ten times as much stock into the advice from an editor (like Stacer) than any author.
An regarding multiple submissions, that's really common (and seemingly acceptable) in the LDS market. I don't know why. I think that it's indicative of why established LDS authors have trouble getting published nationally -- it's an entirely different ball of wax, with entirely different rules.
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Even though some publishing professionals use the terms interchangeably, it's best to make a distinction between "simultaneous submissions" and "multiple submissions."
Simultaneous submissions: Submitting the same manuscript to more than one market at the same time.
Multiple submissions: Submitting more than one manuscript to the same market at the same time.
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Ah. I meant Simultaneous Submissions then.
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Hmm, well, that's food for thought (I love analogies, what does that mean anyway?--no one need answer that because it will probably just make me look dumb).
I probably shouldn't have used all that space to post all ten tips, since it looks like 'Spriggan' found Savage's blog. You probably could have find it all there. Oh well. Get smarter I guess. Sorry, guys.
BUT I really like Savage's scrapper attitude. Sure, Gortcheetsa is right, we are limited to our knowledge of how WE found success, and every situation is different, though THIS is the way Savage found his national agent for his sci-fi books (intended for a broader audience than just LDS genre).
It's definitely different than the way that I've been trying it. I'll tell you that, but maybe that's why I like it...because as far as sci-fi goes, I haven't found success with my query letters...and I do feel like I need to try something different.
The SASE?--well, if you use that to track your rejections, do what you want to do. But if you're sending out simultaneous queries JUST to find out who's interested, and like Eric says there is nothing unethical with doing that, then who cares? The publisher? The agents? You'd think they'd be happy they didn't have to send out all those form letters.
Of course, if they throw the whole thing out without reading it because you don't seem professional enough to send a SASE, that's the only reason I wouldn't want to do it? Does that happen Stacer? It's so cool to have someone on the other end of this who is in the know.
It's funny though that a thing like a SASE would be so controversial. I had no idea.
Stacer, what's your take?--IS IT unethical to send multiple 'queries' (not ms) from a publisher's standpoint?--or do you just have to mention in the query that that's what you're doing?
You don't just talk to one publisher/ agent at these con things, right? I'm sure you have to drop your card everywhere...to find someone?--of course, I don't have any experience there.
My only worry, which I really shouldn't HAVE to worry about (since I can't even get one taker at this point) is what would I do if more than one publisher wants to look at it? Obviously you'd have to tell them, but does that make a difference in the way they view your ms? Has this happened to any of you?
So, Stacer...what are some of the eye catching things that catch your interest with query letters? It's apparent that you like when they follow directions and give you what you ask for, BUT has there ever been a time when you were blown away by a query letter? You probably have to read tons of those things daily. Can you think of any that have stood out? Why? What did they do? It would have to be something good.
Hmm, just my thoughts...too many!
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So, Stacer...what are some of the eye catching things that catch your interest with query letters? It's apparent that you like when they follow directions and give you what you ask for, BUT has there ever been a time when you were blown away by a query letter?
I thought I made myself pretty clear that if they give me a professional package--i.e., know how to make paragraphs (you'd be surprised the ways people think will make them stand out, like not using any paragraph breaks, etc.)--the only thing that stands out to me is a good story. That's what you're selling here. No gimmicks. No tricks. Just a good story.
So the idea is NOT to do some trick that makes you stand out. If you stand out, it's because you look unprofessional. The ONLY thing that should stand out is your voice and your story. Personally, the shorter the query the better--let the story speak for itself. Nothing is going to cover whether you're a good writer or not. If you're not a good writer, make yourself better, and that will stand out.
The only other thing I can think of is go to the cons and get to know what the editors are looking for. Go to LTUE, and I'll probably talk on some panel or other about what I'm looking for right now. If your work doesn't fit with what the house is looking for, it doesn't matter how good you are. If I'm looking for teen gothic horror and you give me your latest science fiction for adults, I'm probably not going to be interested. Know your market--that's one of the things the guy listed--and be a good writer. It's really that simple.
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I dont' think the SASE is "controversial," I just don't think there's a good argument for not spending the $.40 to include one. That way you know if you've been seen, you can track where things have been and what the response was. Your writing's a business. It just seems to make sense to keep track of where/what you've been and done, so you don't waste effort. Tracking rejections can be a useful tool if done right.
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Especially since it sometimes takes some houses so long to get back to you. EUOL had to wait a year and a half before Tor accepted his book. Although I guess they called him--didn't use a SASE to contact him. And that was when he'd submitted the whole thing, not just a query. I just think I'll stick with sending SASEs for my own sanity. Otherwise, I'd never really know if they'd read it or not. Okay--so I guess I'd STILL not know if they'd read it, but I'd know they got it, at least glanced at it, and rejected it. Rejection's no fun, but it's peace of mind.
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Whoa, a year and a half? I'm guessing they asked for the first fifty pages and then he had to make changes before they would accept it? No wonder he's teaching a class. So...is it true that he got 27 rejections from other publishers before TOR gave him a chance? Writing the book isn't the hard part, is it? Authors just have to be a tough bunch. Perhaps being oblivious and a little bit insensitive CAN be a blessing.
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Hee hee, I meant me...I'm the insensitive one. ;D
Hey, look, just the fact that I thought about how that might come out means I'm learning to be sensitive! My sisters would be proud of me.
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Ya it took quite a long time and the only reason his editor ended up reading the submission was becasue EUOL has met him at a con and just talked with him about everything but his manuscript. Then Mosha saw the manuscript one day and remembered talking to EUOL so he thought he'd read some of it, it just took a year for someone at TOR to finaly read it.
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I think, based on an example Savage gave, that he thinks a SASE in a query letter is like asking to be rejected. I'm not sure that I agree with that. I can't really imagine an agent saying, "I was going to just reject this query without really paying it much attention, but since there's no SASE, I guess I'll check it out."
I think he's generally right, though, that there will not be any meaningful feedback from just a query. (If the agent is not interested in the manuscript, is he really going to bother to give you feedback on how to make your query letter better?) And since simultaneous submissions of queries are not a problem, you don't really need to know your query has been rejected in order to send it elsewhere.
I can see one potentially large benefit to not including a SASE: Based on how I've seen some people (including myself sometimes) react to rejection letters by slipping into a writerly depression, it could actually be very helpful not to get rejection letters on queries.
The question is whether that benefit (plus saving on stamps and envelopes) is worth the risk of appearing unprofessional by not including a SASE.
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BTW, when I was at the Leading Edge, we DID send acceptances in people's SASEs. The only time I ever called anyone was when we wanted to accept his story but cut out the first 9 pages--we felt something that drastic merited a phone call.
And if something came in with no SASE, if it wasn't from someone whose name we recognized, it went straight into the recycling bin unread.
(We saved any and all paperclips though.)
Things may have changed now, but that was our policy back 5 years ago.
Of course, we didn't pay attention to queries either, because we weren't into novels.
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Oh, I would definitely agree that short story submissions should contain a SASE. Unless they're electronic submissions, of course.
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That policy is still the same, Ookla. At least as of several months ago. :)
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another thing about TLE is that it's not run by people who are doing it as their *job*, and it's easier to make SASE your primary contact method when you're only doing work on it for 5 hours a week.
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If I was an editor I'd tell you the 100% guaranteed way to get me to look at your Manuscript would be to include $50+ in the envelope. That doesn't mean I'll read it, though I will look at it.
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I was gonna say... that's at least a way to get me to TELL you I looked at it.
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Spriggan, people totally do that. Some include chocolate or other gifts. Money excepted, I imagine most editors toss the gifts and roll their eyes at the sender. Me, I'd take the $50, assume the manuscripts must be awful if they feel they need to bribe me, and then send back a rejection with a big fat NO on it. But, then, I'm inherently evil.
The SASE advice I don't agree with at all. Publishers post guidelines. If you don't follow those guidelines, you come off as someone who thinks they're above the rules, and who wants to work with someone like that?
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I know people do that, the difference is I'd post it in my Guidelines as an Editor.
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On that note: as editor of TWG, I can guarantee that I will look at any article if you include a paypal donation of at least $50. Toss in an extra $50 and I'll guarantee that it sees publication, though I reserve the right to change the title and content at my discretion.
By the way, Egg_Fu: you're the first poster I think we've ever had who introduced himself before posting, and then joined conversations by saying something intelligent and on-topic. Feel free to make some really stupid post about cats, written in l33t, in some three-year-old political discussion. Everybody gets one for free.
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I've spent years on a board composed solely of children's writers, so polite and literate is all I know. I used to moderate my own message board, too, so spam and l33t give me rage blackouts. I cannot abide by such abuse of the English language!
And since this is completely off topic, I suppose this must be my one freebie....
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perhaps we should send him a copy of GTA
We all know that playing GTA not only makes you a murderer but gives you atrocious grammar and manners.
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Ha, thanks for the laugh, people ;D
So, the great SASE debate continues. It makes me want to try something evil...like send a query without one. Of course, I'll probably get an 'I told you so' from you guys when I'm biting my nails wondering if the publishing company ever got it or not...
I'm just getting together some queries...and right now, my big debate is on which book I should send a query out for? I'm trying to take the, 'check out the agent/ publisher to see if they even go for your kinda stuff' advice before I send these out. I'm thinking my stuff is so speculative fiction (it doesn't quite fit any niche I can find) that I'm having a hard time, deciding where to send these queries out. Maybe it's time to hit the bookstores?--I'll just have to keep in mind that I'm trying to sell a book, not buy out the stores.
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Yes, going to the bookstore and finding a book/several books that are kind of like yours--not the same story, but the same genre--will lead you to their publisher. Then follow that back to your Writer's Guide or whatever, see how they take submissions, look at their guidelines online, that sort of thing. I think that's a very good idea.
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My problem with this aproach is that for the most part, all I've found is a lot of books leading me to various imprints of Random House and Harper Collins. All well and good except that they don't take unagented stuff at all. So it's back to square one...
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Hmm, try looking at these sites for agents, and then see who they publish with?
www.anotherealm.com/prededitors
www.katfeete.net/writing/agents.html
Those are what I'm looking at right now. And you can also check if they're reputible through the 'Another realm' website.
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There are a lot of publishers out there that do take unagented submissions. You don't necessarily need an agent--I don't have one yet, and I've done just fine so far.
As an alternative to Stacer's suggestion, I would actually suggest a sort-of reverse way of searching (though both ways work fine). In the back of Writer's Market they list publishers by what genre they publish. Since I write YA fantasy/sci-fi, I would go through and highlight every publisher listed that publishes books in that area. Once I have that narrowed down list, I'd look at each imprint/house one by one and determine if they would be a good fit for me, by reading their guidelines and noting what they say they're looking for.
I'd then Google the publishers I have left, or go to Amazon.com, to see what their most recent books are. That'll help me narrow the list down to a nice group of publishers who would be perfect for a query for whatever it is I've written. You can also at times find interviews with editors or notes from conferences where they out and out say specifically what they want ("sports stories for girls!" or whatever).
Some of the publishers on your final list will only take agented subs, sure. But there'll be plenty who'll take queries, too. And with a targeted list you're much more likely to hit.
Of course, it's possible you all already knew that, but I'm new ;) I think this way may give you a wider group of publishers to query, even for a manuscript with a genre you find hard to define, so I hope it helps some....
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I've been thinking about this SASE idea some more, and I think I've come up with the ultimate solution: Send out SASEs, but don't include the Query Letter. That's right! Just an envelope within an envelope. That'll *intrigue* the editors into writing *me* a query just to find out what they missed. And if they don't include a SASE and $50 in said query, then I'm not sending anything back to them. Let them suffer in the agony of suspense for once. Hehe.
Yeah.
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That's brilliant! I'm doing it!
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Perhaps his advice is intended solely for agents, not for publishers?
Does that make a difference? Would an agent care about different things than a publisher?
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Hey, all. Okay, I went and googled House of Secrets (I know, I know, total ego thing) and your great conversation hooked me. BTW, guitarbabe, your notes were great. Wish my own had been that organized when I spoke. And thanks for not mentioning that I was ten minutes late.
Just a couple of comments.
First and foremost it's all about the writing. Tough to sell a bad product. But many good writers never get looked at because they think a query equates to a business letter. You are trying to sell your work. Be professional and include things that help showcase your complete offering.
On the SASE debate. Not including a SASE with a query for a novel isn't going to affect your chances of getting published. My feeling is, why pay $0.40 to have someone tell you they don't like your writing? I've talked to dozens of published novelists, both national and LDS and not one has recived an acceptance via SASE. And I've yet to talk to an agent or national publisher who will reject good writing because there's no SASE. If you want to keep track of the rejections (in in a perverse way it's actually kind of fun at first) feel free.
If you are going for a national agent though, DO include a photograph. Again, if your writings not great it won't make a difference. But you are selling a complete package and the big five publishers--along with many regionals--are very focused on how well you can market your book after it comes out. The fact that you know how to look presentable is a definite plus.
This particular presentation was focused on novel submissions to agents and publishers.
On the mulltple submission question, again the focus was queries. I would never recommend that you query only one agent or publisher at a time. That will take you forever, and has no appreciable benefit. A good friend of mine just sent out 5 queries for a national YA fantasy using the four page query. So far he has received two e-mail requests for the first 50 pages. At that stage, the agent may or may not request exclusivity for a limited period of time. Or they may wait until they request the full ms. Either way, I would never recommend ignoring that request. You want a professional agent, so acting professional w/ them only makes sense.
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Hey neat. Welcome Jeff. With any luck LDS authors will outnumber mainstream soon!
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My feeling is, why pay $0.40 to have someone tell you they don't like your writing? I've talked to dozens of published novelists, both national and LDS and not one has recived an acceptance via SASE.
Yes, but many have received personalized rejections via SASE, in which an editor who felt the writer had potential told the writer "keep it up, keep submitting; here are the strengths and weaknesses of your writing." An agent is actually *more* likely to do such a thing these days in which the editor's slush pile is so large that they (I) can't give personalized rejections.
If all you're doing is keeping track of the number of rejections, by all means, don't include a SASE. But you're missing out on the potential of developing a relationship with an editor (or agent) if you're on the cusp but not quite there. Perhaps some might email as opposed to sending the SASE back, but personally, I write a letter and there are many editors out there who do.
This particular presentation was focused on novel submissions to agents and publishers.
You might not have known this from my post, but I am an editor. I participate here on these boards because the regulars here are friends of mine in real life. I give only one editor's opinion, but it's valid for my company and for many that I've had connections within. I can't speak to the including a picture with your query to an agent, as I'm not an agent.
I think the thing we all agree upon, though, is that the story comes first, and the fact that the writer is a professional is almost as important. As one of my authors, Dan Willis, said on a panel yesterday at LTUE, "if you're looking for a secret to success, there is no secret." It's hard work and professional behavior, and no shortcuts about it.
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Savage Beast!!!
Jules and I were just checking out TimeWasters and saw you! How cool! Well, we just wanted you to know that four of us tried the query packet and for sure we'll report and tell you how it worked. Actually, one of us has already recieved a very personalized email from one of the editors. Interesting...we'll tell you how it goes from there. Thanks for the advice.
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Hey y'all! I am new here as of today. Brandon, Eric and Stephanie told me to join up since you guys were so much fun! Well, as I was browsing, I noticed my dear friend Jeff Savage was here too! Hi Jeff!! I was thinking of your no SASE deal and I thought up the top ten reasons why no one should EVER include a SASE! ;D
1-trees . . . nuff said, okay okay not enough said. Sincerely you would think in this day and age, we would have grown up enough to use a computer. We are past the crayolas and number two pencil stage.
2-paper cuts. I hate paper cuts. I am so betting that editors and agents hate them too.
3-Postmen. Think on the poor postmen carrying those heavy cumbersome rejection letters. I mean I know we, as writers, hate them, but those guys have to lug those letters through sleet and snow and rain . . . think on all the workman's comp bills and lawsuits we are saving the government. This results in saving our own tax dollars to be put to better use in paying $800.00 for toilet seats (those seats had better sing moon river to us when we sit on em!)
4-schizophrenia. Authors already have the reputation of being insane by talking to people in their heads and doing what the voices tell them. We perpetuate this rumor by sending OURSELVES rejection letters with the return address written in our own handwriting.
5-guilt. I truly think these editors feel bad for knowingly causing the starving populace of authors to be even more broke due to the expense of unnecessary postage stamps. We are saving them a ton by not putting them through this. They'll sleep better.
6-overeating. I don't know about you all, but I eat a box of twinkies and drink a two liter of dr pepper every time I get rejected. By not sending the SASE, I am sparing myself the inevitable heart attack.
7-money. I know we already mentioned how the editors feel guilty, but just think about my poor shoeless child walking the street with his tin cup selling number two pencils since we can't afford a computer due to all those stamp books we bought last year. It's heart rending.
8-Nobody else does it! Lets get real! This is the only business model in America that insists you send a return addressed stamped envelope with your rejection in case they decide not to hire you.
9-education. We are sending enlightenment to all the editors and agents who have not yet learned the value of email technology. We are creating a new generation of email users and that in and of itself is a worthy cause to undertake for those people who really care about the trees in Madagascar.
10-Seinfeld. Everyone knows that if you lick enough envelopes, you're going to die. We are actually saving countless lives of the editors and agents that we depend on to publish our work. If we kill em all off, what's left for us? We're artists, not murderers. ;)
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Stacer, great to meet you. I read all your comments and agree completely with everything you said. Who do you edit for?
I agree that you are potentially losing out on some comments if you don't include a SASE. Although it's funny, I actually had people contact me recently and one recived her first e-mail reponse and it was a rejection. Then another actually had an agent send a letter on the company dime and it was another rejection. Go figure! My experience has generally been that meaningful feedback usually comes only after sending 3 chaps or fifty pages, or the whole ms., but I have no problem either way.
You and I are in complete agreement on the true decider being the quality of the writing. The best wrapping paper can't disguise a lousy gift.
But I still say that a lot of quality writing never makes it in front of the agent/editor because the query stinks. If you give a quality single page excerpt, a blurb that really sells itself, and a short professional query letter, along with a 5x7 or 8x10 that looks professional, you will have more info requested.
Just as an FYI, I'm still learning alot. So I by no means consider myself the final word. I have published three LDS novels. I have a national supernatural thriller with Jacky Sach at Bookends, LLC right now. We came really close to getting picked up by Bantam, and got some great feedback from Berkley and TOR.
I think my problem with that particular novel was that I was too much between genres. It was 50/50 horror/procedural thriller. The comments I received were like, "Loved the story. The characters were great. Very creepy ending. But we really don't have a slot for it." Bantam asked for some changes but had just published something very similar.
Right now, I'm finishing the second book in my LDS mystery series and then will be sendy Jacky a new national that is straight horror. So we'll see. Hey Jules!
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Not that my opinion matters or anything, seeing as how I have nada published, but the very idea of sending out a photo of myself comes across as creepy-weird. I can easily picture an editor/agent/slush pile sorter opening up my "packet" and laughing. Not that I look that funny, but it's not like I'm auditioning for a leading role in a sitcom or anything. On the other hand, I have a *very* hard time picturing the same person opening up a query from me and saying, "Gee. This is good. If he'd put a picture of himself in, I would have taken him up on this." See what I mean?
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Stacer's my editor. She edits for Mirrorstone Books, a new-ish young reader imprint of Wizard's of the Coast.
You know, I'm kind of torn on the SASE thing, because both the reasoning for and the reasoning against make sense when looked at in certain lights. Me, I'll just send 'em 'cause, well, that's what they ask for and I really don't care if I actually get it back or not. The $0.40 is not exactly gonna put me in the poor house.
The one thing I find iffy is the advice to send a photo. I always assumed one of the perks of being a writer is that you don't have to be in the public eye. To think that one of the considerations for being offered a contract is the way I look? That actually irritates me. Appearance is a consideration for so many things in life -- can't we geeky writers just hide in our little caves and write good books and not have to worry about being judged by whether or not we have the good fortune to be photogenic? I don't think I'd actually want to write for a publisher who would try to market based on a writer's appearance and not a writer's work. But that's just me. I guess, if you do have movie star looks, whatever works . . .
I agree with Parker, also. We're not auditioning for a TV or movie role. If I were an editor who got a submission with a photo, I'd roll my eyes and be automatically biased against them.
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Good to meet you all. Mirrorstone looks great. Very impressive web site. I know Wizards of the Coast but hadn't seen the YA imprint before. I also didn't know that WOC did horror. I'll have to see if I can get a copy of Dark Memories sent over after Sep. when you start taking submissions again.
By all means, if you are uncomfortable with some piece of my advice, don't take it.
As far as marketing, it'll probably depend on the publisher, but my experience is that you have to do most of it yourself, and most of it is in person. I don't have anything like movie star looks, but I have to give presenatations, do signings, drive from store to store for meet-and-greets, do school presentations, etc.
And most booksignings are not like I picured them. If you don't get up from behind the desk and sell your books (and yourself,) you end up pretty lonely.
Also, every time you send out press, they want an author photo along with the cover of the book. In the hard copy of this Des News article,
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635159507,00.html
my author photo was about about 4x8. The book cover was only about 2x3 1/2.
The only thing relating to my books I get to do in private is write them.
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Savage, I'm curious where this idea for sending a photo came from. I've been looking into all of this for a couple of years and talked to quite a few authors, agents, editors, etc.--and this is the first time anyone's suggested anything about sending a pic of myself along with my submission. I can definitely see how being a capable self-promoter would help with sales once you're book is published. It's not so much that I want to say your suggestion is bad--I'm just interested to hear where you're coming from. Have you talked with many people who advise this? Is it just something that worked for you? That sort of thing.
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I hadn't heard of it when I did it, or maybe I had and just didn't rember where. But since then, I've heard it from lots of agents and authors. I still think it's a big minority, but that makes it stand out a little. It is not the standard and no one will say, "Hey where's the picture in this query." But I also don't think anyone will laugh.
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Not that my opinion matters or anything, seeing as how I have nada published, but the very idea of sending out a photo of myself comes across as creepy-weird. I can easily picture an editor/agent/slush pile sorter opening up my "packet" and laughing. Not that I look that funny, but it's not like I'm auditioning for a leading role in a sitcom or anything. On the other hand, I have a *very* hard time picturing the same person opening up a query from me and saying, "Gee. This is good. If he'd put a picture of himself in, I would have taken him up on this." See what I mean?
Actually I hope more people do send in pictures, we had quite a time making fun of people who sent Stacer pictures with their queries last night at the TWG party. We also decided that if you dress up as all your characters it help your chances of entertaining the editors before they toss you submission.
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Hi, I'm new here. I just wasted a disgusting amount of time reading a million posts, so I think this group is aptly named.
Thanks to certain cool people at LTUE who invited me to join.
As for agent queries, I'm right in the middle of that whole process, and it's enough to make a man want to leave his wife and start smoking doobies. I've done neither of those things yet, but I did get some pretty bad gastro-intestinal problems in the last week. This is a cruel, miserable, brutal business.
I highly respect Jeff "EatsLikeA" Savage, but he and I agree to disagree on the SASE and photo thing. In my opinion, the SASE has no downside, only upside. I doubt any agent has ever decided to request a manuscript because there was no SASE, but I bet some have decided NOT to request it because there was no SASE. I think you risk your sense of professionalism if you don't send one.
As for the photo, I can't articulate my thoughts. But it just seems like something the psychos who get those cheesy studio glamour shots would do.
Final analysis: Jeff "SmellsLikeA" Savage has an agent, I do not. Maybe we should listen to the guy. The man has huevos the size of Mt. St. Helens. (He's an excellent writer, by the way, and a good friend)
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If I were an editor who got a submission with a photo, I'd roll my eyes and be automatically biased against them.
I wouldn't say I'd go as far as being automatically biased against them, but I have found it rather cheesy to have a photo included, because it really doesn't matter to me. I've talked with a few contacts with contacts in New York who say they've never heard of it. Certainly, it's not going to hurt your chances of getting your writing looked at *if* the writing is good--in my own case, I look at every submission, and if the writing stands out, then I take a closer look, and if it doesn't, I won't--but I will say that other than perhaps rolling my eyes at it, I pay very little attention to it, because if my authors go out in public, I assume they know to shower, and the rest is icing. :) Really, once you get to the promotional stages for a book, then you can worry about getting a nice picture taken if your picture will be on the cover or in the newspaper, but that comes much, much later.
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Wait, we have to shower? Well, there goes all my promotional plans....
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Wait, we have to shower? Well, there goes all my promotional plans....
So that's why my signings go so poorly! Do I have to use soap or can I kind of just jump in and out?
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I just feel compelled to repeat my stance:
the 40 cents, and the minimal amount of paper and "no one else does it" are the closest I've seen to valid arguments.
But come on, who can't find 40 cents by looking through their couch cushions or desk drawers? And seriously, how many trees can you possibly kill by including an envelope. It would take a million of them to equal one tree.
And your query isn't a job application. It's trying to make a sale. You have a job. You're self employed. YOu're trying to get someone to buy your product. I get all kinds of flyers at work trying to get me to go to a conference or buy their products. The response letters have postage paid on them
You get the benefit of knowing exactly what's going on with your manuscript. I'm not talking about keeping a track of every rejection, I'm talking about being informed of the status of the product you're trying to sell, so you can act responsibly and intelligently about it.
finally, I *cannot* see how not including a SASE has anything to do with whether an editor would look at it. If anything, a particularly lazy editor might say "well, he's not expecting a response, so I don't need to even read this one." and move on. I can't see negatives to including a SASE, only benefits. I can't see any benefits to not including one, only negatives.
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I just feel compelled to post the picture I will now be sorely tempted to include with my query letter when I finish my memoir:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/TWGuide/Beard-web.jpg)
tada!
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
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wow, that picture reminds me vaguely of someone famous that I can't remember the name of.
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Whoa, that's a winner. Tuff, very tuff. Werewolfian mega-soldier.
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Whoa, who's that? He's cute behind all that hair!
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Is you a war-woof?
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Well it looks like the real debate here is on just how hott Skarlicious is! I'd buy your book ow ow!
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Is you a war-woof?
hahaha! Priceless.
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By the way, welcome to the boards, Jamestown!
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By the way, welcome to the boards, Jamestown!
Thanks for the welcome. The new guy on one of these forums always feels like an idiot, so thanks. Hey, it was so fun talking to you on the way to the airport---I owe Dan "Free" Willis a favor for being too scared to drive in the snow.
If any of you guys live in Provo, I'm speaking at the library tomorrow (tonight?) at 7:00. Of course, most of you probably got plenty of Dashner blabber at LTUE. Enough already! Shut it!
That dude in the picture up there looks a lot like me, by the way, except I'm way uglier and don't have a lot of hair like that.
Talk about a disjointed message. See ya.
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So he looks a lot like you, except not actually anything like you?
Kinda like how I look a lot like Jessica Alba.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but it's ten minutes until I go home from work and I'm bored.
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That's James Dashner speaking at 7:00 at the Provo library tonight (22nd) btw. He's the writer of a 'Door in the Woods,' 'A Gift of Ice,' 'The Tower of Air,' The War of the Black Curtain.' Those...heck, I'm gonna announce this somewhere else because I'm thinking this is going to be a good lecture (well, that I wouldn't want to miss).
Hee hee, it might just start another great new debate!
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So he looks a lot like you, except not actually anything like you?
Kinda like how I look a lot like Jessica Alba.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but it's ten minutes until I go home from work and I'm bored.
Sorry, that was my lame attempt to make a joke. I only wish I was a sexy soldier-lookin dude so someone would say ow-ow about me. By the way, that's the first time I've ever used the words sexy and ow-ow in an email.
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Cool. Who were you emailing?
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Pardon my subpar usage of computer speak---it slipped. I humbly admit that I never sent an email, and I am ashamed.
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All right, perhaps I should throw in my comments.
The list of ten is quite excellent, and articulated very well, in eight of its points. I really think every aspiring author should know those things, and should take them to heart.
I quibble soundly with the two that are being debated here, however. On the SASE--I have heard numerous editors and agents say that they throw away, without reading a paragraph, any submission that arrives without a SASE. This goes for both prose and queries. Their rational? That if a person can't read their submission guidelines--which usually ask for a SASE--and do what they're told, then they aren't going to be someone professional enough to work with.
Remember, editors and agents can be a picky bunch. Not sending a SASE certainly has some flair to it--however, my instinct is that for every editor with whom you gain a bit of psychological ground by not sending a SASE, there will be ten whom you annoy, and therefore toss your query out of spite.
My agent sent be back an acceptance via letter. (Acceptance meaning "Sure, let me see the first fifty pages.") Then, he rejected that submission via letter. He's one of the particular ones (any of you who have met him can vouch for this.) If I hadn't sent a SASE, he wouldn't have responded to my query--the query that eventually ended up fostering a long-term professional relationship between us.
The argument against sending one just sounds too weak to me. It seems that Mr. Savage is stirring up a hornet's nest intentionally (Which, honestly, isn't a bad thing--that's one of the things authors do. They create discussions.) However, this just strikes me as something that he can claim is 'mind blowing new advice' in order to hook people in to his lecture.
As for the photo...well, seems like good advice in some markets, which are more bestseller-driven. In sf/f, I'm not convinced. One of my students asked me about this, actually, long before this conversation started. I guess he'd heard one of Mr. Savage's lectures. So, I emailed my editor. I'll share part of the response here:
(My question, in full:)
>Today in class one of my students mentioned that an author he knows recommended putting a photo of oneself in with every submission. The rational is that the editors want to see that an author is photogenic before they commit to a book.
>> What do you think? (So that I can tell my students.) What would you think if a photo came with a submission? Would you think it was strange, or would you appreciate it?
(Moshe's--editor at Tor Books--response:)
What an interesting question.
My answer: I would think it was strange.
In my opinion, anyone who bought a book, or didn't buy a book, because of the author's appearance, is an idiot. After all, you don't have to show an author photo if you don't want to, and most authors don't even get the chance to be on TV. What matters is the text, and how readers respond to it.
Sure, a handsome or pretty author is a promotional advantage, but luckily, it's editors who buy the books, not the publicity people. (Actually, smart assery aside, most publicity people I know would rather have a great book and an ugly author rather than an average book and a beautiful one.)
So, while I think Mr. Savage has some excellent points, and is good at making a discussion, I don't really agree with his two controversial items.
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I agreed with everything Brandon said but wasn't able to back it up with concrete examples like that. It's really nice to have a Brandon 'round these parts!!
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This is an interesting discussion. I would have to agree that knowing your market is the best way to go. I know most people on TWG try to publish Sci-fi/fantasy and other works of fiction but I would have to say that academic publication (non-fiction) can be different. I've found that sending the same article or book to as many as 100 publishers is very common and if it is is any good, there is a race to see who get to publish the work. For legal publication, there seems to be more publishers than authors and thus, people like me can get published without being the best writers.
The writing/publishing world is very different outside of TLE and the very competative fiction market. Of course, very few non-fiction and scholastic authors make money directly from their publications. Plus fiction is much more interesting to read as oppose to the stuff that I've published (unless you find tax exemption of government owned LLC's to be some twisted form of entertainment).
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So, while I think Mr. Savage has some excellent points, and is good at making a discussion, I don't really agree with his two controversial items.
Funny how the two least important items are the ones that get all the attention. I probably spent 5 minutes max on those items, and I prefaced the SASE with the warning that I didn't expect most people to take that advice.
I agree with you that the pic may not be applicable to the sf/f space. My focus has been primarily mainstream, although mainstream supernatural suspense. In fact in my next presentation, I'll probably change the pic alone to a pic with a short bio. At worst it gets thrown away, but at best you are showing that you understand the importance of getting out and marketing your book after the sale. I'd be surprised at any publisher who didn't think that was important.
As far as the SASE, I do not in any way suggest that not including a SASE will increase your chances of getting looked at. This advice is totally about my personal feelings. After receiving dozens of rejections, I came to hate seeing those stupid envelopes with my labels on them. So I dumped them. And when I got my agent it was the same way I sold my LDS books, by phone.
I stand by the statement that if your work is good enough you will be contacted by e-mail or phone. I don't believe for a minute that your work will be thrown away because there is no SASE. This is not about saving forty cents, it's about believing in your work. But again, let me restate that I don't have a probelm with anyone not taking that advice.
BTW, here's my pic. I think it goes great w/ the wolfman look.
(http://www.jeffreysavage.com/images/IAT Halloween 10-31-05 002.jpg)
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Okay, stop it people! I can't handle all the hotness!
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My one is here:
(http://www.timewastersguide.com/VG/pictures/Ninja/ninja02.jpg)
Only foolish Gaijin would refuse to publish my book and risk the Ninja's Wrath, else I'll flip out and kill people like a ninja.
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I don't believe for a minute that your work will be thrown away because there is no SASE.
But if they don't even read your query due to there being no SASE, it doesn't matter how much you believe in your work--it will go in the trash.
[EDIT: Also, the editor or agent you send your query to might not always open their own mail. Editorial Assistants often do mail-opening. And if they have a standing order that anything that doesn't have a SASE gets trashed, then the editor/agent will never even see what you sent them.]
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6-overeating. I don't know about you all, but I eat a box of twinkies and drink a two liter of dr pepper every time I get rejected. By not sending the SASE, I am sparing myself the inevitable heart attack.
Too true. Except with me it's a box of pizza and a two liter of root beer.
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But if they don't even read your query due to there being no SASE, it doesn't matter how much you believe in your work--it will go in the trash.
[EDIT: Also, the editor or agent you send your query to might not always open their own mail. Editorial Assistants often do mail-opening. And if they have a standing order that anything that doesn't have a SASE gets trashed, then the editor/agent will never even see what you sent them.]
Let me add that Savage, I love that name maybe I'll start calling myself Spriggan Savage, it doesn't matter what you think about the SASE it matters what the editors think and several on this forum have told you their feelings. I personally think it's dishonest to tell people to do that based off your opinions when you know that editors want SASEs, I'm beginning to think this is less "shocking carnival draw" and more "sabotaging the competition".
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ok, I want to repeat, even though I rarely view this on dialup, that large pictures are pretty darn annoying when in the body of the post. External links work better, especially when everyone tries to get in on the action.
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I'm beginning to think this is less "shocking carnival draw" and more "sabotaging the competition".
Now, THAT'S a conspiracy theory.
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Too true. Except with me it's a box of pizza and a two liter of root beer.
~Chuckle~ The pizza sounds like a great idea! In truth, I go to the twinkies and dr pepper every time my editor calls me too. Doesn't matter that the contracts are signed . . . every time that guy calls, I go through so much adrenaline that I need the food to keep me from passing out. Now that the book is out, we are friends again, but for a while there I felt like I was in the trenches getting bombed!
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I'm beginning to think this is less "shocking carnival draw" and more "sabotaging the competition".
Though I am almost sure you're joking here, I wanted to say that I've never known anyone more willing to help other authors than Savage. He has hand carried manuscripts from newer and less known authors directly to his personal editors to get them out of slush piles and get them really reviewed. How many authors do you know that are willing to do that for other writers? I know a lot of authors, both national and local, and Savage is the first I've met like that.
His ability to help others grow as writers and "make it happen" for them is something I truly envy. His goal is to make the market a better place.
I have taken part in an experiment. I currently have a completed fantasy for YA finished. I sent out five queries using his ten tips. I know of several other authors who did the same. We expect nothing more than an interesting case study for our efforts. I think the results will be very interesting. One of the people in the study already received a personalized note from the agent she queried. I will make sure we post the results of the experiment back here.
I agree that it hurts nothing to include the SASE, therefore why not do it? But I also agree that every acceptance I have ever received from editors has been via the telephone. Thank you, Mr. Bell, for that fine invention!
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I still hold that it's the middle-line rejections that you're not going to be receiving--the ones who are borderline on you that might make suggestions for improvement but who aren't interested in *this* manuscript. You might be missing out on developing a contact you might have otherwise--Brandon's example with Joshua is a prime one. Of *course* you're going to be called or emailed if it's accepted. But I rarely give my email out to someone I found in the slush pile for a rejection (I make exceptions for other countries sometimes) because I'm then more likely to receive submissions and questions from that person via email that take up my time.
By the way, precious-jules, if you are who I think you are, I had a slight mishap my last day at LTUE: I lost the business cards people gave me. So you have my card--you are welcome to email me your contact info so I have it (but if you submit something, do it by mail! :) ). Anyone else here who got my card at LTUE and gave me one, know that your card went floating off into space somewhere. I blame the airport. You can also email me and remind me what you write and that we met at LTUE, so I can have that contact info.
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By the way, precious-jules, if you are who I think you are, I had a slight mishap my last day at LTUE: I lost the business cards people gave me. So you have my card--you are welcome to email me your contact info so I have it (but if you submit something, do it by mail! :) ). Anyone else here who got my card at LTUE and gave me one, know that your card went floating off into space somewhere. I blame the airport. You can also email me and remind me what you write and that we met at LTUE, so I can have that contact info.
Stacer, I agree about the middle-line submissions.
And though I am taking part in the experiment, I likely would continue sending the SASE in future submissions. A forty cent stamp isn't going to kill me, in spite of my tongue in cheek list from the other day. My children really aren't shoeless (Well they ARE, but only because they choose to be) I do enjoy the idea of the experiment though and have had fun along with my other writer friends getting our submissions ready.
I am the Jules you are thinking of (Julie Wright). My daughter and I are having a reading Saturday this weekend where we snuggle under the blankets in my bed and read books. She is excited to read the book you gave her and was grateful for the gift. Thanks again! I do have your card and your information and am more than happy to email you mine.
Sorry about the mishap and losing all that information. I had the same thing happen to me my second day at the fantasy Con in Wisconsin. I am still grinding teeth over the contacts I lost.
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I'm posting merely to get this thread onto another page, so we don't have load those big pictures every time.
However, regarding the debate, I have to say that I don't really believe in using tricks and novelties to get attention for submissions. While the process of getting published can occasionally seem mysterious and random to the authors who are submitting, it's really very businesslike and professional. Publishing houses live and die by sorting between the average and the great, and I don't think they're likely to be swayed by gimmicky submissions.
In other words, I wouldn't ever bother experimenting. Publishers tell authors what they want, so why shouldn't we believe them?
(That said, maybe those who take risks will end up with a bigger payoff. But maybe they won't. I'd rather stick with the tried and true.)
EDIT: It still didn't bump the page -- curses!
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bumb
You owe me one Mustard
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did you mean to type "bump" or did you mean to call Mustard a bum?
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Either way, thanks.
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If mustard just got a bump, does that mean he's a woman now?
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Oh, my . . . I knew that new quote of Jena's was going to cause Trouble, right here in River City. lol.
Besides, luckily for HoM, everyone knows that one bump does not a woman make.
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The amazon's are falsely suggested to have cut off one breast to aim a bow better, so does that make them no longer women?
Also, I actually live in River City. Well, I live in Brisbane, often called "The River City" in stupid amrketing slogans, and in this really bad, B-grade kids sci-fi on TV, they had the city officially called "River City" even though it was clearly filmed in Brisbane.
Fortunately, it's nothing like the River City in River City Ransom.
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The only reason they were falsely suggested to have done that was because the Amazons so described didn't literally exist.
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lol. Sage, very sage, SE.
And anyway, JP, these figurative female warriors each had two of the requisite attributes to begin with. But this is getting rather silly. So that's all I have to say about that...
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However, regarding the debate, I have to say that I don't really believe in using tricks and novelties to get attention for submissions. experimenting.
Publishers tell authors what they want, so why shouldn't we believe them?
Couldn't agree with you more. Even with my sense of adventure, I don't believe in tricks and gimmicks. Sending a fake bloody axe for a horror novel, sending balloons, or using the name of the agent as your main character do not work.
But nothing I suggested was in my mind a trick. I hope that in my presentations I have never suggested that an editor will say, "Oh my, a picture! And look no SASE. This has really sparked my interest. I think I'll read on." Nothing could be further from the truth.
The main point of this presentation is that you have a limited amount of time and space to sell your story and yourself. Make the most of it.
As far as publishers, it is my firm conviction that no publisher really knows what they want. If they did, they could just hire writers hourly to create it.
And don't believe a thing Jules says about me supporting other writers. I do nothing of the kind. I spit upon them and tell them to take up seal training.
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Heh. I wish we knew better what we wanted at my company. We've been publishing some rather questionable things (marketwise) recently. That makes the writers and artists happy of course, but doesn't make that much business sense...
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Anyone else here who got my card at LTUE and gave me one, know that your card went floating off into space somewhere. I blame the airport.
Yay! Found them! I put them in a secret pocket of my purse for safekeeping. You know, that thing where you put it away and never see it again? Yeah.
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Not to drag the whole SASE debate up again, but I'm going to.
So I'm sending my book to Houghton Mifflin. And their childrens book department has this to say:
IMPORTANT:
Owing to the overwhelming number of unsolicited manuscripts we receive, we at Houghton Mifflin Children's Books have had to change our submissions policy.
As of January 1, 2004, we are no longer responding to your unsolicited submission unless we are interested in publishing it. Please do not include a self-addressed stamped envelope. Submissions postmarked January 1, 2004, or later will be recycled, and you will not hear from us regarding the status of your submission unless we are interested, in which case you can expect to hear back from us within twelve weeks. We regret that we cannot respond personally to each submission, but we do consider each and every submission we receive.
So huh.
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What is said childrens book about?
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It's a contemporary YA novel about a girl who's best friend kills herself, and leaves behind a journal filled with secrets the main character doesn't want anyone to know.
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Because the secrets are things she has done, or is it a less sinister reason?
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Well, that's part of the mystery of the book. But yeah, because it's things she's done.
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Interesting...
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Lol. Let's hope the editor thinks so. The last one aparently didn't.
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That or he did and decided to plagerize it to make himself famous. ;)
Better luck next time.
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I'm not impressed with companies who don't promise a response at all.
That's the policy here, too... Umm...
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I heard about that--the policy started while I was working there. I don't know which is worse for beginning authors, never hearing back at all from a place that won't answer unless they want to publish it, or a company not taking unsolicited mss at all.
That's one thing that I love about my job. For the ones that have promise, I still have the leeway to give feedback (though I've been running out of time lately to do so)--we're encouraged to help develop new writers, because that's a lot of who we publish.
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Well, no company that doesn't promise a response deserves non-simultaneous submissions, so that at least is one thing that makes things easier for the author... I still feel really bad about what happened when Dan submitted his book though.