EUOLogy #13

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

reference: http://www.timewastersguide.com/view.php?id=917

EUOL's response to the Nerdery #2

I have something to add to the discussion of both, but I want to try and find a quote.

[House of Mustard]

Hey SE -- fix the italics from your editor's note.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I'll do what I want.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

THe quote I mentioned doesn't appear to be online anymore. Anyway, recently Avalanche Press sold a "sexy girls" set or something. Just a bundle of some of their RPGs with the chix on the cover. The press release spoke about how their covers went in the face of what people were telling them: that the sex angle wasn't flying with RPGers anymore.  Their stuff sold, and they were proud of the half-naked covers.

anyway, this kind of says two things: one, that the rpg industry, at least in the eyes of many publishers, is already forsaking the sex on the cover approach. two, that there are parties vehemently resisting this change. I'm not sure what that says about what will happen in the future, however.

The other thing I wanted to say was about violence. Which is a worse sin? Murder or adultery? I'd have to say Murder. Yet sex is a much more avoided problem than violence is. Why is this?

[stacer]

I agree with EUOL on how fantasy books have really matured in their depiction of women, both artistically and linguistically. Also, at least in children's books, mainstream, big-5 and mid-range publishers have really been jumping on the fantasy bandwagon. I think this has been both affected by and has effected changes in the genre. The quality of production of these books is amazing. Because publishers are finally realizing that kids really will read a 500 page book if the story is good (duh), they've increased the leading and font sizes of slight stories to make them look like huge tomes, and the paper has a higher opacity, and the art departments are simply paying much more attention to the design of the books. Like EUOL mentioned, cover art is better, too--in children's, of course, it never had the problem of near-naked people, but it did have what I call the Tuck Everlasting "ugliest cover ever" syndrome.

So there is some hope, yes. But you go to things like WorldCon, and some (not all) of the stuff being sold in the merchant's room... it was really offensive to me, both as a woman and as a religious conservative type who would never expose my kids to that if I had any.

[stacer]

P.S. SE, not sure what the problem was with your italics, but I was just in editing it, so if you went in and fixed something, I'm afraid I would have saved over it.

[Skar]

Quick opinion on murder vs. sex question.  Murder is so far out that no one really considers doing it and thus it is safe to joke around with.  Adultery happens a lot more often and is far more accepted thus no one knows if you're joking around and moral people have the urge to push the whole topic back out to where it should be.

[Skar]

Hey SE, there's no link to the forum in the Eulogy.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Stacer, my italics were as I corrected them after HoM's warning. You may want to check to make sure I didn't save over YOUR changes.

Anyway, I really apologize for the half-arsed job I did blurbing and approving that article this morning. I thought I could quickly get it done before I left for work, and I left a lot of stuff out, like the link, the bio, and a closing <I> tag. I am lame. I'll just wait till I have more than 5 minutes to take care of it next time.

[EUOL]

Skar,

I like your answer to SE.  I hadn't thought of that, but it is very rational.  In addition, here's another thought on the matter.

How often, really, do these books encourage murder?  I have violence in my books, but I sincerely don't see myself as encouraging murder.  

Violence CAN represent senseless brutality.  However, it can also be a powerful metaphor for the struggles we all must make--struggles of control, and battles of good vs. evil.  So, when the hero fights off the evil doers, protecting the innocent, then goes and sleeps with his sexy sidekick, I find the second far worse.  In the first case, I think he's done what he was supposed to--he may have had to kill, but few heroes are presented as LIKING that part of their job.  The immorality, however, is presented as equally cool, but without the situational justification.

That's why I'm perfectly alright with video games that have an 'M' rating because you have to fight off an alien invasion, while disgusted by games with the same rating that have you carjacking, whoring, and creating general mayhem.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I don't know about "most heroes" i'd have to see some numbers. There are a LOT of characters that are portrayed as loving the violence and the fight. Especially recently.

But what you say makes sense.

[Skar]

Yup, EUOL, I agree with you and feel much the same way.  I see rated R movies (I know some on the forum don't) but I'll walk out of one if it sprays me with gratuitous sex.  Gratuitous violence I'm OK with.  Even beyond the violence that is justified by the situation.

My favorite justification for violence that would not be justified were the situations in the movie to happen in real life is that it's fake.  Sex or nudity on screen is not fake.

One of my biggest pet peeves concerning movies is when everything about a movie is great, but then the main character goes and has casual sex.  Stupid.

We've got to somehow let the industry know that it hurts their sales.

[Sigyn]

Well, I don't know if it has hurt their sales yet.

Comparing justified killing with adultery seems a bit unfair.  What about unjustified murder and adultery?  I read a book recently where the main character is told that if she wants to prove herself to her brother she had to kill a character the reader knows to be good.  She does it, and that killed the book for me because I no longer wanted to read about this person.  Her actions were just as offensive if not more so than scenes of casual sex.

Whether people are more offended by sex or violence has a lot to do with culture. Cultures with extremely loose morality often have no trouble with nudity and sexual intercourse.  Watch Monty Python, if you don't believe me.  Our culture seems to have a much easier time with violence.  We're exposed to it more so it isn't usually as offensive.

[Entsuropi]

I'm not sure that it does Skar. Remember the whole common denominator thing.

This has been noted before, that violence is tolerated a lot more than sex. In continental Europe the opposite is true; they have a great deal of random nudity in adverts. I'm not sure about the violence thing, someone go watch some French films and let me know.

Interestingly enough, i've been reading the Tamuli (by David Eddings, SE) and the casual attitude towards random killings and the like that the characters have expressed has been making me slightly uncomfortable. Whereas I happily play an Euthanatos, essentially a mage who believes that murder can and should be used to remove people who impede, either through actions or refusal to adapt, the turning of the great wheel, in a Mage: The Ascension game. So I guess Its the fact they don't have a real reason past 'it's easier and quicker than talking him down' thats troubling me - if they had a better reason I'm fine with anything. I'm just wierd.

[Entsuropi]

Cultures with extremely loose morality often have no trouble with nudity and sexual intercourse.  Watch Monty Python, if you don't believe me.

Hm? I'm not certain I like the phrasing of that sentence.