Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: DarkEnigma on June 28, 2010, 10:07:05 PM
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Hello all,
I've always had a problem with writers who bend the rules they themselves set up or change a character's... erm... character in order to reach the next plot "checkpoint". In lesser author's books I usually just roll my eyes and brush it off, but after reading the first two of the Mistborn trilogy and being delighted with the authors skill, I was quite put out when I came across this nefarious device in the third book.
To wit: when Vin is trapped by Yomen in the cache, and is offered the drugged wine... and she drinks it.
I was sorely disappointed by this naked plot device: not only because it was unnecessary but mostly because it marred an otherwise skillfully rendered story (like a Ferrari with a sticky clutch... you might expect that from Ford).
Let's recap: Vin is a woman whose survival instinct is second to none. She stands apart and assesses the danger in every situation even when among friends. Vin a child of the unforgiving streets, who is always the cynic, the overly cautious one, the consummate survivor... willingly allowing herself to be incapacitated?? Especially when there were obvious options still available for her to take (like torturing Telden with a hand over his mouth to dampen his screams until he gave the signal to open the grate)?? Don't tell me she isn't ruthless enough to attempt it: I submit the massacre at Cett's keep as exhibit "A".
This event was so jarring that I put down the book and walked away in mid sentence, I almost didn't finish the series. Only several days later did I come back to it, more out of a sense of obligation than desire.
Was anyone else bothered by this, or am I just mad?
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That's who Vin is now, you should check out the Annotations. Brandon did this intentionally to show how much she had changed. Good reasons behind it.
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This is the related annotation: http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/319/Mistborn-3-Chapter-Fifty
I wouldn't say it's a deus ex machina in the classic sense. The characters just made a decision, one which didn't work for you, and I'm sorry. (Really, the most deus ex machina event in the whole series is Vin using the mists against the Lord Ruler in book one, since that wasn't really foreshadowed)
That said, it did work for me. Vin always goes with her gut instinct. So, she naturally she came up with a plan, and unfortunately it didn't work. That's our dear, impulsive Vin to the core.
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I have to agree with Chaos. She might not yet have run out of options, but she was coming close. It had been days. Honestly, I think being drugged and knocked out would be better than being locked up with Ruin jabbering in your head. It would be enough to make one crazy. *twitch* Like Zane. *twitch twitch*
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I also agree. You sited her attack on Cett's keep as evidence of her ruthlessness. Did you remember what happened after? If I remember correctly she hid in an alley and cried. Also remember: Telden was Elend's friend, and Vin knew it. He was not some faceless guard to her. Thirdly, He came up and confronted her directly. It's a lot easier to kill someone in the heat of battle, or in stealth, as she did with Cett's men, and another thing entirely to look someone in the eye who is helpless against you, and torture them. Vin has never tortured anyone, she's killed many, but she never tortured anyone.
The use of the mists in book one is the only true use of Deux ex Machina I can see, and there was a reason behind that. I'm glad you finished the series. I can't imagine that seen being so jarring as to make anyone consider not finishing it. Did you at least enjoy the ending?
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I, for one, have never read an ending I've enjoyed more than Hero of Ages. Sure, it wasn't the ending I wanted, but it was the best ending.
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See, that scene was so out of character, that it completely fit for me. I was not expecting it at all. When they presented her with her options, I was just waiting for her to find a loophole, or to make her own option C (and it's been a while since I've read the book, so I'm a little hazy). So when she just took his conditions, it was really surprising. But her reasoning made sense.
I suppose she could have tried to torture Telden, but she obviously didn't think it would work. *shrug* Didn't really seem wrong to me. If anything, I liked the scene and how it was all written. It strengthened the book IMO.
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I think the annotations make it clear that Brandon put as much thought into that decision as he does in all his writing. I remember thinking "NOOO THERE'S GOT TO BE ANOTHER WAY", but when I thought about it, I realized that I would have made the same decision. She wasn't trying to incapacitate herself, she was taking a gamble. If it had worked, it would have been the sort of thing we'd come to expect from Vin - down the drugged wine, let them think they've got her, then BANG, they're all down in a whirlwind of tiny-lady fury.
I think its the mark of strong writing that every once in a while, the protagonists can fail. Sometimes we as readers have to come to respect an antagonist in order for the story to be compelling, and I think that's what this did for Yeoman (among other things).
In fact, that idea of failing protagonists follows Hero of Ages through to the end, with both Elend and Vin's deaths. It raises the stakes when the heroes can't just fix everything by snapping their fingers.
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Hmm... The annotation appears to assume the only choice was between staying in the cavern indefinitely or trusting in Yomen's good grace. However, my point is that's a bit of a false dichotomy. There were still options available to Vin: options that were not outside of her character (as the one she chose, I believe, clearly was). I think that willingly allowing herself to be put into stasis where she couldn't assess, contemplate, and react to her circumstances, where she would be completely vulnerable to the whims of her captors, would be so abhorrent to her that she would only do so if her life or a close associates were immediately threatened.
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Hmm... The annotation appears to assume the only choice was between staying in the cavern indefinitely or trusting in Yomen's good grace. However, my point is that's a bit of a false dichotomy. There were still options available to Vin: options that were not outside of her character (as the one she chose, I believe, clearly was). I think that willingly allowing herself to be put into stasis where she couldn't assess, contemplate, and react to her circumstances, where she would be completely vulnerable to the whims of her captors, would be so abhorrent to her that she would only do so if her life or a close associates were immediately threatened.
now THAT's where the problem is, as Sazed would say, I think.
the reason that annotation starts with a comment about Vin being impulsive is because her split-second assessment of her pewter and duralumin stores (and what she could do with them) lead her to think she'd be able to shake off the poison. As I remember, she was legitimately surprised when the poison persisted after she'd run out. Surprised and disappointed. There's no resignation in her action, merely a gamble gone wrong. Yes, there were other actions she could have taken, but the one she decided to take was completely in her character.
I'll point you back to the first book, where Kelsier sneaks into Kredik Shaw, and Vin follows him - the annotations reference both of their impulsive natures...hold on while I get it.
HERE it is -
"Following Kelsier this night is probably one of the dumbest things Vin does in this book. Letting her follow is undoubtedly the dumbest thing Kelsier does in the book. Yet, these two characters are alike in more ways than they may seem at first. Both have a sense of brashness that borders on the foolhardy."
And if you'll remember, that too was a gamble that didn't go well for them - Vin almost died there.
So I think there's been enough evidence that Vin's been intended to be a very very impulsive character. Downing the wine and thinking she'd be able to fight off the drugs and her enemies was foolhardy, and possibly not her best shot, but its what came to her first. And if there's anything we can count on Vin doing, its going with her gut.
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I fail to see the other options that were availiable to Vin that were within her character. As I explained in my last post, I think torturing Telden would be incredibly out of character. Vin may be a force to be reckoned with, but, as the book points out many times, she is not Kelsier. Kelsier probably would have tortured Telden. Vin would not.
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If anything, the scene where Vin turns Goradel at the end of MB1 shows Vin is far kinder than Kelsier. Vin would not torture a man.
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If anything, the scene where Vin turns Goradel at the end of MB1 shows Vin is far kinder than Kelsier. Vin would not torture a man.
I'm a dork so I just read through all the annotations for book 1. Brandon mentions this as well. He's also mentioned that Kelsier makes him uncomfortable sometimes because of what he's willing to do. So Vin shares his impulsiveness but not his ruthlessness.
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I also agree. You sited her attack on Cett's keep as evidence of her ruthlessness.
Okay, I try not to pedant other people too much, but homophone confusion really gets me. You wanted to say "cite":
cite - To reference something.
site - An area or website.
sight - Vision.
I think the annotations make it clear that Brandon put as much thought into that decision as he does in all his writing. I remember thinking "NOOO THERE'S GOT TO BE ANOTHER WAY", but when I thought about it, I realized that I would have made the same decision. She wasn't trying to incapacitate herself, she was taking a gamble. If it had worked, it would have been the sort of thing we'd come to expect from Vin - down the drugged wine, let them think they've got her, then BANG, they're all down in a whirlwind of tiny-lady fury.
I think its the mark of strong writing that every once in a while, the protagonists can fail. Sometimes we as readers have to come to respect an antagonist in order for the story to be compelling, and I think that's what this did for Yeoman (among other things).
In fact, that idea of failing protagonists follows Hero of Ages through to the end, with both Elend and Vin's deaths. It raises the stakes when the heroes can't just fix everything by snapping their fingers.
This is pretty much what I would have said- except I think the protagonist failing in at least some significant way is absolutely mandatory if they're going to pull off a big win- and vice-versa if they're going to fail.
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Jeez, sorry about that. I should have known that. I used to know it anyways. Either I forgot, or I had a brain fart. Thanks for pointing it out!
Cite, cite, cite, cite.
Is it just me, or does it now feel like we are convincing ourselves here?
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I think Dark Enigma has faded into the shadows...
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No I haven't faded away. I just recognize an impasse when I see it, and perhaps it was a misjudgment on my part to seek opinions critical of the writing on the author's own website... I still believe that Vin's survival instinct would be stronger than any qualms she might have over hurting someone, particularly if that someone was one of her captors.
As far as other options are concerned: how about moving a couple of cans under the ladder and using a Duralumin fueled jump to shove aside the rock? She used this ability on more than one occasion to toss dozens of men and horses and even Koloss like chaff on the wind. Surely that would have been enough to move a stone which had been placed on top of the shaft by normal men unaided by allomancy. Or what about using emotional allomancy on the guards waiting on the other side of the stone to get them to move it for her? She could have pleaded, or threatened, or tricked them (with the nobleman's help, willing or otherwise), along with a duralumin enhanced Riot or Soothe. I'm not saying these things were guaranteed to work, what I am saying is that trying anything other than potentially rendering herself vulnerable to her enemies would have been truer to her established character.
For those of you who have read David Eddings' Belgariad sequel The Malloreon, Vin's inexplicable choice here reminds me of the scene in that story where the Emperor of Mallorea decides to meekly join Belgarion's group despite being fiercely independent and arrogant prior to (another time I had to force myself to finish a series). Vin's cynical, hyper-cautious nature was one of the things that I enjoyed about her character. To have her character subverted in order to achieve a plot wicket is, I believe, a form of Deus Ex Machina.
And finally, there is a subtle but very important difference between being impulsive and being intuitive. You all are right: Kelsier was impulsive, dangerously so. But Vin was intuitive. She had an odd ability to take in the details of a situation, assess it, and react accordingly, all without her conscious mind coming into play, and usually make the right decision. Her intuition should have been screaming at her not to take her chances with the wine: to find another solution.
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whelp, I guess you're entitled to that opinion. I'm not sure how much more can be said on the subject. In either case, I'm not sure Vin's actions constituted a Deus Ex Machina.
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If Vin escaped because the Lord Ruler suddenly showed up with new powers to help Vin fight her way out, that would be Deus Ex Machina.
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If Sazed burst in through the ceiling and dispatched everyone with his hulk-like powers, then said he'd feru-speeded his way across the entire continent because of a feeling he'd had that she might be in trouble. THAT would be a Deus-Ex Machina.
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Yeah, Deus ex Machina is the wrong term. Out of character is what you're thinking.
Also, and this really bugs me.No I haven't faded away. I just recognize an impasse when I see it, (I still believe that Vin's survival instinct would be stronger than any qualms she might have over hurting someone... particularly if that someone was one of her captors) and perhaps, also, it was a misjudgment on my part to seek out critical assessment this on the author's own website...
Wow, seriously? I understand not agreeing with someone's opinion, but that's just low. Inclined to think the author is doing it right? Yes. Automatically blocking out everything that criticizes the work? NO.
You're new, and I get that you wouldn't be familiar with what goes on here, but we are a level-headed, carefully analytical bunch that doesn't blindly follow Brandon no matter what he says. And I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions like that after being here for less than a week.
I think that it was entirely in character for Vin to drink the wine. She took a gamble, and it is a credit to the development of her character that she prioritized getting work back to her friends in a timely fashion over her own immediate safety in order to do so.
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Yeah, Deus ex Machina is the wrong term. Out of character is what you're thinking.
Also, and this really bugs me.No I haven't faded away. I just recognize an impasse when I see it, (I still believe that Vin's survival instinct would be stronger than any qualms she might have over hurting someone... particularly if that someone was one of her captors) and perhaps, also, it was a misjudgment on my part to seek out critical assessment this on the author's own website...
Wow, seriously? I understand not agreeing with someone's opinion, but that's just low. Inclined to think the author is doing it right? Yes. Automatically blocking out everything that criticizes the work? NO.
You're new, and I get that you wouldn't be familiar with what goes on here, but we are a level-headed, carefully analytical bunch that doesn't blindly follow Brandon no matter what he says. And I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions like that after being here for less than a week.
I think that it was entirely in character for Vin to drink the wine. She took a gamble, and it is a credit to the development of her character that she prioritized getting work back to her friends in a timely fashion over her own immediate safety in order to do so.
Yeah! what HE said!
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I hadn't thought of using the cans... hmmm, it could work. Was there any metal in the rock though??
As for soothing and rioting, she would have been doing it blindly. She had no way of knowing how many guards were out there and what they were feeling. The best she could have done is send out her soothings and riotings and hope the hit the right people and worked. Maybe you're right and she should have at least tried it. And all soothing and rioting with duralumin would have been to make the guards jump
If I remember correctly, weren't some of her metals getting low at this point? Experimenting with duralumin might have been tricky.
Should what she did have been her first try at getting out of her situation, maybe not. I'll give you that. Perhaps jumping to that decision right away was out of character. But choosing to take a risk and hope it pays off instead of torturing someone, i don't think that is out of character at all.
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I think the other big issue here is one of hindsight. Hindsight is 20/20. VIn was acting in the moment. So any course of action we deem "better" or "more productive" at this point is with information that she didn't have. We're neglecting the fact that she thought her plan would work. She thought she could beat the poison.
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Yeah, Deus ex Machina is the wrong term. Out of character is what you're thinking.
Also, and this really bugs me.No I haven't faded away. I just recognize an impasse when I see it, (I still believe that Vin's survival instinct would be stronger than any qualms she might have over hurting someone... particularly if that someone was one of her captors) and perhaps, also, it was a misjudgment on my part to seek out critical assessment this on the author's own website...
Wow, seriously? I understand not agreeing with someone's opinion, but that's just low. Inclined to think the author is doing it right? Yes. Automatically blocking out everything that criticizes the work? NO.
Aye, I enjoy Brandon's writing to an extreme, and I respect his craft more than anything, yet I have criticism of his work. A decent list, even. This matter, however, isn't one of them. Do I think that this was Vin's first choice? Of course not. And you can even see in the scene (which I just reread last night as part of my rereading of the trilogy now that all the annotations are done) she was very certain at first that she was not going to drink the wine, from either cup.
Honestly, I think Telden was the key more than anything. If he hadn't reminded Vin of an earlier Elend, I don't think she would have gone for it. He charmed her, and his honestly struck her, so she went with it.
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As far as other options are concerned: how about moving a couple of cans under the ladder and using a Duralumin fueled jump to shove aside the rock? She used this ability on more than one occasion to toss dozens of men and horses and even Koloss like chaff on the wind. Surely that would have been enough to move a stone which had been placed on top of the shaft by normal men unaided by allomancy.
Wouldn't work, she'd have to Duralumin push of the cans and then Duralumin flare Pewter at the exact moment she hit the trap door. There's just no way that kind of timing could be achieved without: a) Electrum, b) Atium, or c) Feruchemy (specifically steel) and, even if she managed to time it just right, she'd have been left to deal with an unknown number of guards without any Steel or Pewter.
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You misunderstand: I meant she pushes the cans up under the stone while standing underneath it, then using a duralumin fueled shove to tip the stone over using the cans as anchors. The stone couldn't have weighed more than a dozen mounted soldiers (keep in mind it was put in place by ordinary men. There were no allomancers in Yomen's kingdom other than Yomen himself), which she already displayed the facility to toss about like yesterday's garbage.
Secondly, you don't have to be able to see people in order to affect them with emotional allomancy. Perhaps she pleads with the guards through the stone and makes then feel extraordinarily guilty about their actions. Or perhaps she threatens that, once released, she will track them and their families down to kill them while augmenting their fear. Or perhaps she tortures Telden for the password. Or perhaps she just pretends to drink the wine. This is a woman who was intuitive enough to find a way to kill an atium-burning mistborn when she had no atium of her own, intuitive enough to find and exploit the Lord Rulers weakness and defeat him, yet she is confounded by a bottle of poisoned wine and a stone?
But once again whether any particular tactic would be successful or not is irrelevant. Our Monday-Morning Quarterbacking of her options is irrelevant. The "amount of information she had in the moment" is irrelevant. Hell, even wether she had a legitimate chance of escaping the guards once out of the storage hold is irrelevant.
My whole argument is that her choice was so out of character that it constitutes Deus Ex Machina. Am I really the only one who sees how far from Vin's character this action was? Vin has spent a lifetime conquering horrible situations: wether it's surviving the streets or defeating the Lord ruler, or dealing with Imperial politics. Her experiences left her sharp-witted, cynical, self-reliant, and above all else, tenacious and indomitable when it comes to survival. That is what I respected most about her, and that is the crux of the issue. Would the Vin we came to know ever entertain knocking herself out? Or would she be so terrified of being helpless that she would try anything else to solve her situation?
You all claim to be objective and I will take you at your word, but not one of you has ceded that Vin's actions were the least bit suspicious. While you are quick to dismiss my argument's particulars, not one of you addressed its core intent. Can someone please explain to me how willingly ingesting poison jibes with everything we know of Vin??
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DarkEnigma, you seem to be ignoring what people have said about Vin believing she could defeat the drug with her duralumin, which is also the reason given in the book.
Also, like people said, that's not the definition of Deus ex machina.
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If you reread the passage you will find that Vin was very skeptical that the Pewter trick would work, and in fact was not surprised when it did not work. Given her assessment of the pewter trick's chance of success, is it not suspicious that she did not investigate alternatives?
According to Dictionary.com Deus ex Machina is "An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot." My contention is that Vin's choice was an improbable event, counter to her established character, used to get her into direct conversation with Yomen without her metals. Perhaps there is a better literary term to describe this disconnect, but if so I am ignorant of it.
Let me further say that I am not criticizing where Sanderson wanted to go with the plot. I'm no writer, and if he wanted her to have to deal with Yomen from a position of weakness, I'm sure he had good reason. I just wish he had thought of another way to get her there: a way which left her essential character unmolested.
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The key part is that it's supposed to resolve a plot issue. This only gets Vin out of the frying pan into the fire.
I don't know if the can thing would have worked. In fact, I suspect pushing directly up against the stone would not have budged it at all. I suspect it slides in from the side through mechanical means. (But I haven't read it recently.) Also emotional allomancy wouldn't have done it because it's too vague--she could have made them afraid or angry for a few seconds, and then what?
People in this thread have already sufficiently explained why they found her actions to be in character. In all my readings of all reviews and discussion threads since the book came out, no one has ever raised this objection. I don't say it's not a potential issue, but I'd say it's less of one than you think.
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I give up.
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I politely disagree with your analysis, DarkEnigma. Please don't take it personally.
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I give up.
...I honestly don't get why this bugs you so much. The way you see the character is obviously different than the way everyone else and, more importantly, the author do. You are entitled to your view but you keep saying that our view is wrong while you don't seem to consider either that you might be mistaken or that there is no right or wrong when it comes to an opinion, which is what you're arguing about.
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You have put a lot of thought into this, and I'm sorry the scene didn't work for you. I enjoyed it, mostly because Telden sold the scene for me. But also, this scene isn't without precedent. She took Zane's false atium, remember? She even said in that scene "Gee, why would my enemy give me atium? Oh well." [NOT AN ACTUAL QUOTE!] Then, when he was destroying her at Keep Venture, she even tried to use it. Zane had proven wiley enough at that point that he could have in fact poisoned her with it.
Yet she tried anyways.
I had no qualms with this at all. It felt plenty natural, perhaps even, because I would have been inclined to make the same choice. But that's a different argument altogether, for I am not Vin, and there are many other choices she made that I would not have throughout the trilogy.
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the point about Zane's fake atium is actually a really good one. I'm saddened it slipped my mind. Seems like there's a growing base of evidence supporting Vin's actions.
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Thought I'd take a turn playing devil's advocate,
When Vin takes Zane's atium and uses it, you must remember that Zane had been subtly soothing and rioting her emotions for the whole time he's been around her (at least whenever she wasn't burning copper). It doesn't say so in the book, but it does in the annotations, and when you reread carefully, you can see where she feels exactly the way Zane would want her to feel, thus, unless Yomen had someone soothing her (which I don't think he did because someone mentioned he had no allomancers other than himself), they aren't really the same scenario.
I don't think her chance at the pewter trick was out of character, I just think that Zane's atium can't be used as a precedent in this argument.
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I forgot about that in the annotations, but I do remember it reminding me I should go back and reread those passages and look for the influence. Good call.
I still think that the Zane incident is an indicator that she can be impulsive though, simply because of how limited soothing and rioting can be. I think the key word is that his influence is subtle. Kelsier and Breeze both taught her that emotional allomancy is about enhancing what people are already feeling. In that moment, then and there when Vin downed that atium, the stress level was at a point where subtle influence would have meant nothing. Her own adrenaline would be overpowering everything. in THAT situation, the impulsive act of swallowing the bead was her own.
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Another point in which her character is revealed to be reckless at times, and thus very likely to do just what she did with the poisoned wine:
(I feel like Alexandre Dumas)
In The Final Empire, she runs right back to Kredik Shaw, even when she highly suspects that there will be Inquisitors who can kill her easily, and TLR to contend with! It's brave and goes entirely against any self-preservation instincts she has. She is of course, captured then, too. It's the same kind of situation, really. She rushes in with full knowledge of the danger and hopes that her metals can save her.
So, no, I don't think her drinking the wine is much of a stretch at all.
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yep, the Kredik Shaw incident was mentioned earlier as well.
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Thought I'd take a turn playing devil's advocate,
When Vin takes Zane's atium and uses it, you must remember that Zane had been subtly soothing and rioting her emotions for the whole time he's been around her (at least whenever she wasn't burning copper). It doesn't say so in the book, but it does in the annotations, and when you reread carefully, you can see where she feels exactly the way Zane would want her to feel, thus, unless Yomen had someone soothing her (which I don't think he did because someone mentioned he had no allomancers other than himself), they aren't really the same scenario.
I don't think her chance at the pewter trick was out of character, I just think that Zane's atium can't be used as a precedent in this argument.
Fair enough ;)