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Reading Excuses / Re: September 7 – Hubay – Fathers of Gods, Chapter 3
« on: September 11, 2010, 12:30:45 AM »
Re Drug smuggling: I don't think the smuggling of illegal hallucinogens or narcotics is anachronistic, but calling it "drug smuggling" sounds out of place. Instead of a generic endeavor, maybe he would think of it as "caong smuggling." ("return to the relative normalcy of smuggling caong.") "Caong was one of the most expensive drugs money could buy" could become "Caong was one of the most expensive narcotics money could buy" (or whatever is the appropriate type of illicit substance). Just in general, using "drug" seems to smack of modernity.

Also, I can't vouch for historical accuracy, but it would make sense that someone who smuggles one kind of small valuable would probably smuggle others from time to time, like precious stones or whatever is appropriate for the milieu. You probably already thought of this, but I just wanted to toss it out, just in case.

I like how you thought through the physics of "quicktime." It's the sort of thing modern audiences expect.

(One side note: "QuickTime" is Apple's multimedia software - iTunes installs it. This isn't a problem, it was just a tiny jar that took me out of the story for a moment. I'm not suggesting you change anything, but it was kind of a funny juxtaposition: modern software file formats and a bloody epic fantasy alley fight.)

Re: height of slums. "Higher than palace" doesn't mean "over the palace", but it might be better to clarify that, so the reader won't be confused. A note on why this is the case would be welcome (I may have missed it.) I like the detail, it's colorful and interesting, but a bit of justification would enhance it.

"that he won’t try that while I’m still alive" This sentence seemed a bit awkward.

In all, it was an interesting chapter and I want to learn more. Good job.

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Reading Excuses / Re: Amy Sterling Casil: What to Critique
« on: September 04, 2010, 06:46:11 PM »
Another critique template, this one from Maureen F. McHugh, an instructor at Clarion

My critique template starts with a sentence summation of what the story is about. (You'd be surprised how often someone summarizes your story and you think, hey, wait, that wasn't the important part--which tells you something about where the weight is falling in the story.) 

Then they had to tell:

1.) how the story was effective,
2.) how the story wasn't effective, and
3.) make a suggestion for improvement. 

Oddly enough, this is an amazingly good formula to get critiques that feel useful rather than savage.

[Summarizing seems more oriented towards short stories rather than novels, but the other three are excellent advice, IMHO.]

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Reading Excuses / Re: Aug 30 - Daddy Warpig - Godslayer - Part 4
« on: September 01, 2010, 11:07:43 PM »
I can't say I cared for the flashback, though. The transition from Karrus' POV to Akara's felt smooth and natural, whereas the shift to the flashback was jarring. This was mainly due to the shift from the limited narrator in the previous chapters to a suddenly omniscient one.

Quick thought about ideas and implementation: even a good idea won't work, if executed poorly. Good ideas aren't worthless (as some spec fic writers have claimed), but they must be executed well.

The idea for Chap 9 was that the narrator is Karrus himself. The short sentences, matter-of-fact descriptions, focus on military matters (uniforms, order of battle, battle formations, weaponry, strategic significance of the plains): this is the story as Karrus relates it to Akara. Detached, emotionless, not personal. He's analyzed the battle and he's relating the story the way an officer might deliver any battle report. "Just the facts."

I think, as a chapter, this idea was fine and interesting.  Interesting, in character, shows how Karrus thinks. The implementation was flawed: it wasn't made clear enough that this is Karrus' account, not a flashback.  Three simple changes would fix this: including "Karrus began:" at the top, moving the time/location to the body of the chapter, and italicizing the text.

My initial thoughts for the beginning of Chap 10 was to clarify this even further: begin with Akara POV, describing Karrus telling her this story (including the last 2 or 3 sentences of chap 9 as dialogue), how he describes things in a matter of fact way, with little facial expression, and draws units in the dirt, showing how the battle played out. Combined with the three changes above, it would integrate the scene, and make for a good implementation.

The thing is, Asmodemon is right. It isn't that this is a bad idea, it's that there's a lot of potential being wasted. Instead of the dry retelling Karrus does, a close third POV showing how he experienced it—a true flashback—would be more involving, more visceral.

Killing a divine and holy being deliberately, even to save the prophet, is a significant event emotionally. It ought be given more space and more description. I like the idea of Karrus describing a battle, and some other battle might be described that way later in the book, but this isn't the right battle to do that with.

So, a better idea has been presented, and I hope to implement that idea well. Thanks for the comments, all. (And thanks for the compliments, Flo.)

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Reading Excuses / Re: Amy Sterling Casil: What to Critique
« on: August 31, 2010, 09:25:03 PM »

The one thing I do not want to do is bruise any egos as I know how fragile beginning writers can be, myself included.

I worry about that as well, for similar reasons. I definitely don't want to appear rude or tactless.

Again, from the same website, a couple of articles I searched out last week and have been trying to take to heart:

"The Diplomatic Critiquer": http://critters.org/diplomacy.ht

"It's Not What You Say, But How You Say It": http://critters.org/whathow.ht

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Reading Excuses / Amy Sterling Casil: What to Critique
« on: August 31, 2010, 05:00:03 PM »
This is my first time joining a writing group and trying to offer feedback. Often, I read a piece and find myself at a loss for words—I'm not sure just what to say: I don't know how to critique a piece, what to look for and what feedback to give.

The following piece (from the website of the Critters Writing Workshop) covers what authors can think about when re-reading their work, and what critiquers can look at to analyze in an author's work.

I thought this was useful enough to share with the group. Also, if anyone has any other suggestions, or contradicting opinions (Ms. Casil might be wrong on some points), feel free to chime in.

(It may be obvious, but I wanted to emphasize: everything past here is Ms. Casil's advice, not mine.)

Hardcore Critique Advice
Amy Sterling Casil

When we criticise work, we are commenting for the purposes of publishability, and our goal is to help authors to become publishable *and* published writers.

For prose pieces, the following issues are critically important:

1)  Plot - does the action make sense?  Is what is written moving the story forward?  Sometimes, the pieces are too short or are fragments, so a complete plot analysis isn't possible.  Most pieces can be judged within the first few sentences for effective plot beginnings, however.  That's what editors do.

a) Does the story start at the right place (the beginning?)  Most stories by beginning writers start far too early - way before the key action takes place.  Some, however, may start too far forward.  These writers have taken the advice of "start with the action at full steam" too literally.

b) Is the pacing appropriate to the story?  Too fast?  Too slow?  Just right?

c) Is the plot a real plot (a character, in context, with a problem)?  Are things happening which seem to have no discernible reason or purpose? 
 
d) Are there unconvincing coincidences passing for plot?  "I saw Prunella at the A & P that afternoon.  I couldn't believe it when she told me that she had the other half of the key to the Ancient Peruvian Treasure Box which I had been seeking, the very one which had brought upon the murder of Uncle Henry by the ravening pirates."

e) The ending:  is the payoff adequate to the buildup?  Does the ending make sense?  Is it satisfying?  Does it arise from character and situation or is it "deus ex machina," where the Cavalry suddenly comes riding in over the hill to save the hero and heroine?  Most importantly: were the seeds of the ending sown in the beginning?

2)  Hook - Is the beginning adequate to catch the reader's interest?  Another key issue related to publishability.  Is there the proper balance of action, dramatization, and narrative?  Sometimes, more narrative is needed, as in the pieces where the author will begin with a lot of unattributed dialog.  The dialog might be saying exciting things, like:

"I'll kill you, Jim!"
"No you won't, I'll rip your arms out of their sockets first."
"Darn you, Jim!  Just pass me that ketchup."

OK, here's killing, anger, conflict . . . but who?  Where?  Who cares?  Other beginning errors include hooks that are a bit too strong: and I've seen child abuse, rape, incest, this type of thing. The reader has to care about the story and characters first, not be thrown into a situation from which they will instinctively recoil.

3)  Characterization - are the people of the story believable?  In the case of some of the work we've seen, one wonders if the characters which are being written about are people.  Some beginning writers use genderless, nameless characters.  While this might have been done in some avant-garde writing, this isn't usually the type of writing which is accepted in the SF world.

Urge the basics:

a) Names - good ones - indicative of character, which make sense. "Tom, Dick and Harry" just don't cut it.  With all the great names in the world, let's promote some creativity in character-naming.

b) Dialog and action fits with and supports character.  Meek, sensitive characters shouldn't scream or suddenly pull out Ninja weapons unless it's a comic piece.

c) Gender, place, time, dress and manner of characters should all go together to support good characterization.

d) Physical descriptions are appropriate to the piece.  A viewpoint character should not be able to describe himself, unless it's integral to the plot.  The good 'ol, "Susie sees herself in a mirror" trick should always be pointed out to the author.  Physical description of viewpoint characters can be done indirectly, by the reactions of others to the character and the character's own interaction with the world of the story.

4)  Point of View - whose story is being told and who is telling it?

a) Omniscient narrators are pretty much on the outs in the current publishing world.  The omniscient narrator hops from head to head, from scene to scene and place to place and there is no single point of view or voice, other than the author's.

b) First-person narrator.  A difficult voice for the beginner, though many people often think it is "easy."  The first-person narrator can only tell what he experiences and knows. This can be a powerful, but also a limiting voice.  It is often thought to bring the reader into the story, but poorly-done first person narration has the opposite effect.  The reader becomes aggravated by the character, and generally quits reading.  A good example of when first-person narration is inappropriate:  stories told by people who are dead or in comas, unless it's a horror or surrealistic story. Of course, "Johnny Got His Gun," the famous World War II story, was told from the point of view of Johnny who had no arms, legs, eyes and was deaf from a war wound - a unique and effective story not likely to be repeated.

c) Third-person narrator.  Also called, "limited third-person point of view."  This is the most common narrative style used in novels and short stories.  The technique uses limited authorial intrusion, and done properly, can bring the reader in as close to the story or closer to it than can first-person narration.  A point-of-view character is selected and the story told from that character's perspective.

d) Common mistakes include:

1. Head-hopping:  switching back and forth between different characters' thoughts and opinions.

2. POV slipping:  telling something that the POV character couldn't possibly know.

e) WRONG point-of-view character.  Sometimes stories are told from the wrong character's point of view.  This is an error in plot, related to the point-of-view issue.  If the author more fully understood the story's plot, he or she would have automatically and easily chosen the appropriate character to "tell" the story.

5) Style - is the writing appropriate to the story?  Style is subjective, but true errors in style are glaringly obvious.

a) Tone.  Is a serious story being told in a flippant tone?  Or a comical story told in a plodding, self-conscious style?  Most common, especially with younger writers:  inappropriate irony, otherwise known as "smarting off." 

b) Anachronisms or Freudian slips.  In historical stories, are characters using modern phrases?  Or, do inappropriate comments slip into the narrative, for instance, in a tense scene of financial intrigue, does one character suddenly say to another, "I love your see-through blouse, Frieda?"  Are characters acting appropriately for their age and stage in life?

c) Usage/Confusion errors.  The gerund problem is among these.  "Pulling on his boots, he leapt to the door with his gun."  Gerunds used in this manner are usually associated with two unrelated clauses jammed together with a comma.  The author needs to use separate sentences which portray clear and understandable action and narrative.  This is lazy, confused writing. Psychologically, I think it signifies a confusion as to what the appropriate story and/or action is, because most often, I've seen very beginning writers do it when they are tired or bored and don't know what to do with the story. Misplaced modifiers and split infinitives also fall into this category. Sentence fragments?  Sometimes they are appropriate, if they seemed planned or intentional and are not excessively used.

d) "Taking the reader for granted."  Otherwise known as "The urge to explain."  The great phrase, "RUE" or "Resist the Urge to Explain," is used in the book "Self-Editing for Fiction Writers," by Browne and King.

"I'll never darken your doorstep again, you thieving hussy!"  Johnny slammed the door furiously.  He was angry.  He had never been so angry in his life. [Thank you, author, I got it the first time . . .]

Simply put, authors make this error when they use dialog, narrative summary and action to accomplish the same purpose.  Dialog and action can both be strong methods of communicating plot developments; narrative summary less-so, but it has its place.

>> Thirty years passed and Monica had never kissed another man. <<  That's narrative summary - preferable to detailing Monica's turn-downs of men over a 30-year period.

e) Lack of variation in sentence length or sentence structure.  Too many short sentences?  Too many long, run-on sentences?  A long sentence or two can be interesting, but not *every* sentence.  An ungrammatical, confusing sentence is exactly that, and is never good writing.

f) Excessive use of passive voice.  Passive voice is often mistaken for the past-perfect tense.  Passive voice refers to the reversal of the "normal" subject/verb order of a sentence.  Tenses of verbs serve to indicate time and order of events.  When writing about the past, or indicating various moods, past-perfect verbs are very useful, and they have nothing to do with "passive voice."

"Bob hit the ball" is "active" voice, the normal sentence order in English.

"The ball was hit by Bob" is passive voice.  The subject, "the ball," comes before the verb. 

You might see something like "The speech by Mayor Bob was given in his usual sarcastic tone."  Normal sentence order would be:  "Mayor Bob gave the speech in his usual sarcastic tone."

Passive voice isn't a major point in fiction writing:  if it is used to excess, there are usually other severe problems in plot and style which are more harmful than passive voice alone.

g) Internal dialog passing for emotions or plot.  Many beginning writers do this.  At its most extreme, the internal dialog is actually the author's own thoughts as they ruminate along the page, not those of the character.  "What would Mary do?  Would she fire the gun at John, or would she turn it on herself?  What would happen if she fired the gun at the floor?  How could she ever decide?"  Please, Mary, decide.  Please, author, don't tell us what happened until Mary decides.  Sometimes, this sort of internal dialog can be unintentionally hilarious, like the authors who are going along with the story and suddenly say, "this is really boring.  When is this going to be over?"  Soon, I hope.

6) Dialog:  is it good?  A good ear for dialog is something which is difficult to learn.  It's easy to spot when a writer is good at dialog. Conversations should be realistic and serve to advance the plot.  Good dialog is not *realistic* dialog, it is dialog which advances the story, shows character and echoes in the reader's mind.

a) "Maid and Butler dialog" is dialog where two characters tell each other things they already know.  It is often used to attempt to tell backstory or to explain concepts the author thinks the reader won't understand.  In SF, we know this as the "infodump."

b) Flowery dialog: sometimes found in Romance writing, Historical writing or Fantasy writing, these are characters who speak language which never issued from a human mouth. High language can be appropriate in all of those genres, but dialog like this:

"Margaret, your lips are as sweet as the nectar from a honeyed buttercup," Lord Brockston Bragg ejaculated.
"Oh, Brockston, I can feel your . . . it's . . . it's pulsating, Brockston," Margaret exhaled.

. . . is never appropriate.

c) Bad tags.  "Said" is fine, as well as the occasional whisper or shout, indicating volume (but even that's not necessary).  Bad tags include "exhaled," "ejaculated," "shrieked," "sputtered," "muttered," "murmured," and all other verbs attributed to a line of dialog instead of appropriate action, description and good dialog which speaks for itself.

Marianne cupped her hand by my ear.  "He's going to try it now. Just watch," she said. Whispering is pretty much understood.
Bob sighed and opened his mouth, then sighed again.  "Can't," he said at last.  "Can't do it."
(Beats "stuttered," or "sputtered," followed by "Bob stuttered.  He had stuttered since he was seven and the Burnsey boys had whipped him behind Old Man Gruenpfluegel's barn.")

7) Originality and creativity.  The most important part!  We should be encouraging people to use their imaginations and to think beyond the first ideas which pop into their heads.  Cliched plots and characters and situations, like "Worldmaster Gray" and "the spacefaring couple who crashes on a planet and turns out to be . . . Adam and Eve!" fall into this area.  Originality in character, plot and setting is very important and goes a long way toward contributing to the quality of any kind of fiction writing.

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Reading Excuses / Aug 30 - Daddy Warpig - Godslayer - Part 4
« on: August 30, 2010, 10:54:51 PM »
A rewrite of, and replacement for, parts 2 & 3. Part 1 ends with Chapter 7, and this begins with Chapter 8. I apologize for any confusion.

Also, I've changed the working title of the book to "Godslayer." (A name hinted at in the end of Part 2.) The reason why will become abundantly clear.

Summary

Captain Karrus, Marshall of the armies of Aiesha, is deposed the night of his final victory. That same night, a cataclysm occurs that destroys the city he's in and nearly kills him. Saved by one of the enemy, a beautiful woman named Akara, the two take comfort in each other.

The next morning, Akara awakes beside her lover and discovers something unexpected.

Thanks in advance for any comments, and thanks to all those who've posted feedback before.

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Reading Excuses / Re: Email List + Submission Dates
« on: August 30, 2010, 04:09:53 AM »
And, again if there's room, I'd like to submit something as well.

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I would agree that, for me, having the background at the beginning made it difficult to get into the story.

One possible alternative is to start the story with the action (hitch-hike, "see" the deaf man and his car, get picked up, he ignores her), then do some backstory (why she was hitch-hiking, how her sight aids her, why the man's ignoring her was irritating and unexpected), then the climax.

The climax seemed a bit abrupt. That was intentional, but it was too abrupt. I would agree that a smidge more detail on how she died (fire, impact) would be desirable, if only to make the crash scene more vivid. A sentence or two could do it, I don't think you would need paragraphs of description.

I was also confused by the possible supernatural angle. The bit about naming and the mystical vision of the goddess seemed to imply a supernatural angle, but other than the impossibility Ravenstar identified, it doesn't really affect the story. I expected it to, but it didn't.

This was probably deliberate, the story seems intended to set up one expected end and deliver another, but for me, this was an unfired Chekov's gun.

All the above are just IMHO, so YMMV.

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Reading Excuses / Re: July 19 - Daddy Warpig - When Gods War, Chap 1
« on: August 26, 2010, 04:07:03 PM »
Nice beginning. 

Thank you. Quick question: did you get a chance to read the revised version? If you get a chance, I'd be interested to see what you think of the revised version. (Thread here: Part 1)

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Reading Excuses / Re: Aug 23 - Daddy Warpig - When Gods War, Part 3
« on: August 26, 2010, 03:49:47 PM »
As I mentioned in my part 2 critique, you should really move some of this to earlier sections. 

This isn't obvious from the text - though I tried to mention it in the email - but Part 3 is intended to appear earlier. Part 2 began with 8 "Camped on a Barren Plain" and 9 "A Great and Fallen City". 9 was when they entered Cormiscu. I intend part 3 to be inserted between those two, so it comprises 9-12. Chapter 12 occurs before they enter the city, so "A Great and Fallen City" would become 13, and the rest of Part 2 would be renumbered from there.

Sorry for the confusion.

One minor note: the quick succession of chobin with chosha is difficult to read. 

I'll try an integrate that better. What I was thinking was that, in the Kithian tongue, "cho" means holy or godly. Cho-bins are warrior priests, cho-sha lore-masters. (There's one other priestly role, cho-ji.)

So there's a reason for it, but I can introduce the names better. Perhaps spelling them with hyphens will make it clearer.

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Reading Excuses / Re: Aug 23 - Daddy Warpig - When Gods War, Part 3
« on: August 25, 2010, 06:52:59 PM »
I didn't like it at first, but it got better as you went further in.

Would it be fair to say that you didn't enjoy the the first two sections (9 & 10), but did enjoy the third?

EDIT: And, as long as I am asking, what was it you didn't like? I'm just learning to write a novel, so I'm wondering if it was a matter of taste (dislike the subject) or a technical matter (bad writing, mistakes in structuring the scene, etc.)

About the POV: You're right about the odd mix. I intended 10 to be a memory of Akara's, something she's remembering as a result of Karrus' comments about the dead in the city. I need to keep the POV consistent, to indicate that. Any suggestions you might have along those lines would be welcome.

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Reading Excuses / Aug 23 - Daddy Warpig - When Gods War, Part 3
« on: August 23, 2010, 05:45:59 PM »
Captain Karrus led an alliance of armies, to defeat the Kithian invaders. On the night of his victory, he was arrested and taken in chains. A massive cataclysm destroyed the city he was in, and Karrus barely escaped.

Outside the walls of the city, he was trapped, escaping by digging his way free. A Kithian woman, Akara, saved him. Later that night, Karrus was woken by her cries, as she suffered a nightmare. He held her while she cried, murmuring words of
comfort. The two kissed, which led to their having sex by her fire. It's the next morning.

Note: I haven't responded much, mostly because the WE podcast said that, in writer's groups, the writer shouldn't argue or defend his writing. Listen to the comments, take the advice that seems sound, but don't get defensive.

I've tried to follow that advice. I have read all the comments, though, and thanks to all who've pitched in.

One of the suggestions on Part 2 (from hubay) was that Akara's POV should appear earlier. I agree, and this is the result. It happens before most of Part 2.

Once again, looking forward to comments and thanks in advance.

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Reading Excuses / Re: Email List + Submission Dates
« on: August 23, 2010, 12:37:44 AM »
Looks like we've got 3 for Monday, the 23rd. I'd like to make it 4, it it's alright.

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Once again, just my thoughts and impressions.

To paraphrase Montgomery Burns: "I don't know about Literature, but I know what I hate. And I didn't hate this." 

Why not? It was enjoyable. It felt too short. I just got into it, and bam! It was over. I want to read more. (Actually, I thought the file had been truncated, and had to check my mail just to see if it was all there.)

It was interesting. The powers, the looming death, hints of rules (no two titans at same time), the social customs (pillars to hide atop, two couples can't use same place), etc. I was intrigued, and wanted to learn more.

The characters felt like real people, and their dialogue wasn't forced or stilted. Also, the alien culture felt like a real one ("Feeder's teeth", etc.)

“I swear to god, Cumo, If you kill me while we’re having sex…” That's a great line. Seriously, just a killer line. (No pun intended.)

 I learned from reading it, from how the exposition was woven in between interaction and dialogue.

And after reading it, I was a little jealous. 

Couple of criticisms: The prologue felt a little awkward in places. I think you were going for stilted, to underline the fact that it, whatever it is, isn't human, but it was too stilted in places.

The third sentence of Chapter One ("Oh, every once and a while") needs to be rewritten, it's confusing. Actually, there are a few sentences that can be line edited. Few as in three or four.

I wouldn't cut the prologue. I thought it worked.

Enjoyed it, looking forward to reading more.

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Reading Excuses / Aug 9 - Daddy Warpig - When Gods War, Part 2
« on: August 10, 2010, 03:38:27 AM »
Part 2. Thanks in advance.

Captain Karrus had been Marshall of the armies of Aiesha, commanding them and their Vedran allies in a war against the brutal Kithians. After five years, they liberated the last captured Vedran city. On the eve of victory, while others celebrated, Karrus was deposed and arrested, taken in chains. As he was escorted through the city, the Vedrans sacked and burned it, killing and raping the surviving Kithians.

Stars are the souls of Gods, and when a God dies, his star falls. Overhead, stars began to fall. At the same time, the city was destroyed by quakes and falling fireballs. Many people, perhaps everyone in the city, died. Karrus barely escaped.

He collapsed outside the city and was rescued by a stunningly beautiful Kithian woman, one of the enemy. She fed him and tended his wounds. Later that night, Karrus was woken by her cries, as she suffered a nightmare. He held her while she cried, murmuring words of comfort. The two kissed, which led to their having sex by her fire.

It's the next morning, the second day after the city's destruction, and Karrus has woken.

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