Valley of the Wolves: Iraq

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

So Turkey is the pot calling the kettle black? Also, if Turkey wanted to get the terrorists hiding out in N. Iraq, they'd have wanted to help out and go in.

Now thats a terribly facile argument.

Firstly you seem to be unable to differentiate between a movie (which is most assuredly a work of fiction) and the feelings of a government.
Unlike most of the middle east Turkey is a nation with both a free press and an active artistic community, able to make films without government censors hanging on every scene.
On the movie front, the Turks have some call to make a movie about percieved American anti-Arab/ Turk sentiment. One has only to look at our late nite drama (24 anyone) to see how our media thinks of the majority of Middle Easterners. Making a film in reaction to how the world see's us is legitimate in many ways, and while provacative it raises some important points that we should rationally look at before dismissing them out of hand.

Your lumping Turkey in with the region only hammers that point home. Turkey is a large stable democracy, founded on the ruins of the old Turkish empire to be sure, but very commited to the freedoms that their government offers. Sure Turkey has had its problems, during World War I they put Kurds and Armenians in concentration camps, but the Britsh invented them (Boer War) and the US has used them. All of that happened either over a century ago, or at least 50+ years ago. Yes, the Turks and Kurds have problems, but make no mistake, many Kurdish revolutionary groups are nothing more than gangs of thugs, willing to kill anyone (including other Kurds) who gets in their way.


Point 2.
Turkey was unable to help out with our war in Iraq because by and large the US invasion was not popular with the people of Turkey. As a democracy the government respected their wishes seeing no real threat (at that time anyway) from Saddam Hussein. When the Regime collapsed members of the Turkish high command saw that they needed to take steps to curtail the violence that was sure to erupt on the border now that the Kurds werent worred about the Republican Guard crossing into Northern Iraq and killing everything. With Saddam Hussein down that left only 1 target for the heavily armed Kurdish rebels. Turkey.

Also it bears mentioning that the democratic government is having a hard enough time dealing with the growth of radical islam and they felt (wisely IMHO) that throwing gasoline on a fire wasnt the best way to go. Which is the same reason Indonesia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Jorden decided to not get involved in our war. Invading another muslim country isnt exactly popular these days if your another muslim country.

Rather than invade the Turks did what we would have done. Sent in a detachment of green berets. Exactly the response every other western country that fights terrorism uses today. Ever hear of Navy Seals?

The real problem between Turkey and the US came from Centcom, which has made a few diplomatic blunders in the Middle East. Unwilling to work with the Turks in the way they were used to as a NATO ally they hurt the communications structure between the two nations making a situation likely to happen. Something similar happend between Italy's special forces and the US around the same time if you remember.

If this teaches any lessons it might be "dont treat your allies like dirt, and maybe they wont hate you in the morning"

[Turkishee]

Hello all,

Let me state the following:

1:  Bush is an idiot.

2:  Cheney and Rumsfeld are guilty of starting a war for no good reasons.

3:  The supposed links that connected Iraq to Al Queda and Iraq's supposed stock pile of WMD are utterly false.

Now, I'd like to say this.

1:  With friends like Turkey, who needs enemies?

2:  The use of US actors in US military uniforms in a region where the US is blamed for everything is just wrong.

3:  Billy Zane should go in front of the front line troops and explain why he did what he did.

4:  What were the Turks doing in northern Iraq in the first place?

a:  Turkey was against the war so why again were they there?

b:  Northern Iraq is full of Kurds so did th Turks have extra ammunition they just needed to shoot?

5:  As the place they were captured in is Kurdish, I'm sure the Kurds identitfied them as "Saddam's troops" or other "enemy agents".  It is not hard to determine why the Turks were treated like criminals.  No US soldier would believe that the Turks, who had already disallowed the US from using its territory were there in Iraq.

This whole movie is utter crap.  I'd like to see a story about a heroic Kurd taking on the Turkish military after a few of what I'm sure are more than a few abuses that have occured there.  When a supposed friend stabs you in the back like that, it takes a long time to trust them again and not see others who oppose them in a different light.

Haha, Clearly you need to re-attach your brain.

I'm going to briefly respond to some of your absurd questions.

'What were the Turks doing in northern Iraq in the first place?'

Turks, in Iraqi Kurdistan? where is Iraqi Kurdistan? we only know Iraq. It is one nation, it has its own territory and its own ministers etc. We do not accept a region or country as Kurdistan, that is why, your question have no answer.

But if you ask us, what are they doing in Iraq, than I can say that Turkey has right to send troops to the neighbour countries for its own security. Turkey has their people living in that area and they are looking after its civilians life.

The question is totally wrong in my point of view, it should be as "What the hell is USA doing in Iraq?" If you invade a country for your security reasons, why shouldn't Turkey send 11 soldiers for its own security?

Billy Zane is also an actor with class. Playing in a movie where the truth is revealed about your own country takes a dysfunctional actor, and someone with big cojones.

[Skar]

Playing in a movie where the truth is revealed about your own country takes a dysfunctional actor, and someone with big cojones.

Not really sure what you really meant by "dysfunctional" in that sentence but as for the "big cojones..."  Maybe where you're from it takes cojones to play in a movie that slams your own country, but not in America.  In America it would take cojones to play in a film that made America look good.  That's the way the industry works here.  Actors who slam America are just toeing the party line.

[Entsuropi]

I want admin powers.

[Shrain]

Entropy, this thread makes me covet admin powers too.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Umm, LCD, did you follow the links Skar left for you in answer to your request? It looks like you did not.

[MsFish]

This board has a real limit to posing size.

Perhaps one should take this as a hint.  

 I see that you have nothing to say except lick Dr. Jeff's balls.  

LCD obviously doesn't understand board dynamics, among other things.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

yeah, I'm not even reading his whole posts anymore. He hasn't said anything new in several pages and ignores posts by other people. I'm just scanning for language I find inappropriate now.

[Skar]

Of course, you are correct that 90% of the US wanted Saddam removed.  But as so is often the case, what the US population wanted and what was better for the people in the region do not always coincide.

Ok.  You're making two ridiculous claims here.

Ridiculous claim #1: The people in Iraq would have been better off if the U.S. had not invaded in 2002 and/or the people of Iraq were better off because the U.S. did not invade in 1990.  

Both of those claims fly in the face of the FACT that approximately ten times the number of civilians died under Saddam and his cronies from political executions, violent murderous rape, and torture each and every year than have died in identical time periods since we invaded in 2002.  And that doesn't touch the fact that we're installing a democracy, government by and for the people.

Ridiculous claim #2: That somehow, when it was 90% of the U.S. population wanted Saddam removed they were wrong, but now that the polls are starting to swing the other way they are right.  Looks to me like you're just saying, "When the polls agree with me they're right and when the polls disagree with me they're wrong."  Ridiculous.

 After all, there are places where the majority wants ID taught as science.

Totally seperate issue.

That is why there are supposed to be people who we vote into office that are supposed to look at the whole picture and not their own personal vendetta.

You seem to be forgetting that Bush was voted into office and that YOU, like the rest of us, are part of the uninformed masses who he is supposed to look at the whole picture FOR.  So, again, "When Bush's take on the whole picture disagrees with mine, he's wrong...and a moron."  Would he still be a moron if he agreed with you?  Come up with something better man.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

again, I just scanned, because I'm not participating in this argument anymore

You don't even know why I edited your post, do you? It's not because you're vehement, it's because you used foul language and imagery.

My job is to moderate. (one of, anyway.)
I saw some pretty foul imagery, so I took care of it. You could have edited it out, you didn't.

I'm not, and no one has, told you to spend all of your time here. But if you want ot post on a forum, you have to be familiar with how it works. It won't take your whole day to read the FAQ, so either do it, or shut up. That's it.

You also get no sympathy for people coming at you from multiple angles. You want to support a position, you have to risk that. It happens. If you can't hack it, well, then maybe you should rethink your argument, because it's not as strong as you think. It's just part of communication. If you quote someone, QUOTE THE PERSON WHO SAID IT, don't assume you know who said it. That just shows ignorance.

Basically, all I've seen of your arguments is a refusal to accept any evidence that points elsewhere. YOu don't think facts Jeffe brings up are facts, but we should accept things you bring up as gospel. You won't accept popular opinion -- unless it's in your favor. This is not a well-reasoned position.

Give it up.

[Skar]

As for the first, http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp Saddam's terrorist training camps for Islamic fundementalists, that is way too far fetched.  Saddam, for all of his lip service, was a secular dictator.  He is no more Muslim than Mubarak or Assad.  His "re-conversion" to Islam was a ploy.

So, because Saddam was not a devout muslim the eyewitness accounts of his regime training and supporting terrorists must be wrong?  How do those two things relate?  This is another case of "That article doesn't agree with me so it's wrong."  How tiring.

These are the same guys who lied to themselves and Saddam when US tanks were in Baghdad proper right...but even with the article, it is just hearsay.

Sorry, a primary source, as in someone who knows because he was there and saw what he is describing with his own eyes, is not hearsay.

But hey, he doesn't agree with you so he must be lying.  Right?  

I think I'll let you continue this discussion by yourself.

[Spriggan]

Wow here I am having missed all the fun and personal insults.  Why am I not surprised this all happened in the Movies board?

Even though LCD is gone lets just let this discussion die and if she comes back and is unwilling to play nice we might want to place this thread under a 24 "chill out" lock.

[PublicEnemy]

I watched it recently and its really for dummies. Full of arabic klicks like good islamic sheyh, bad jewish dr, evil americans etc.. Maybe some idiots wants to provoke some dummies against US with movies in Turkey.  But they forget a lot of things. We Turks don't shoot our allies like arabs shooted their ottoman allies in WW1.  
BTW there is no movie industry that can spend 10m $ for a movie in Turkey, So I really wonder who sponsored that movie.

[himerisa]

If you think that these are only disgusting lies....

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

/me 's finger hovers over the "lock" button.