3-2-09 Hamster Soul Taker Chapter 2

[Hamster]

Here it is, chapter 2. As I said in the email, I would greatly appreciate it if you would comment on Kale's( the main character) characterization, and if it works. Also, I feel like the action could be better, so please comment on that as well.
Okay, so have fun and enjoy reading it, sorry for the length again, thanks for your help!

[Frog]

Hey Ham... I don't know if you noticed yet, but it looks like you left the attachment off on the email, so you might want to try again. We don't want to miss out on all the awesomeness after all.  .

[Hamster]

LOL, so I did Frog, so I did. WELL, that is slightly embarassing,  I shall soon set this grievous, heinous crime to rights. I shall not deny you of your well deserved awesomeness Frog, never fear, I will send....the Attachment!

[Frog]

Yes! I have received the awesomeness!

Thought While Reading:
You know, every time I read a new section of this I feel like I am starting a new book. It's still pretty early in the game, but things are going to start flowing together soon, yes?
 
Your voice seems... overly detached starting out. Unless that's the impression you want, I would watch the 'fly on the wall descriptions.' And try to start your sections with some kind of action or dialogue to draw us in before the scenery shot.

Good character interaction here.

They have rooms w/o windows?

"maybe hoping to loosen him up. It wasn’t working." Seems a bit too telly.

Um... where did the random assassins come from? Too be honest, since I don't know anything about these people yet, Kale comes off as rather dark (the 'assassins didn't even have the chance to say/show him the nature of their visit before he went into battle mode) and I haven't seen enough redeemable qualities/charisma from him to give him the benefit of an doubt.

Yep. Your right. POV break here is not a good idea.

Again, if this is a character you want us to care about, you got to give us a reason right up front. He just seems to dark for me to want anything but his speedy demise at this point.

"Where is he?" Is jarring. I would delete it.

Watch the adjectives... things like 'superb' 'beautiful' and the like are just too telly.

I am feeling a little lost in this section... can't really say why though. Mostly it just feels random. I am not sure what he is trying to accomplish here and it just seems a bit too drawn out. I like the concept of the soul takers though.

I think you may be a bit too in love with the word try. She tried to sound confident, he tried to look in control... yeah, unless it's their POV you have to discribe their actions and let me make my own conclusion. Maybe Katrina glares at him or the captain took a step forward and stuck his chest out or things along those lines.

Okay, I like that we get a little bit of Kale's mind set here and scene with Riel was good too.

Overall Impression:
Believe it on not, I liked these scenes and thought they had a lot of potential.  I would even suggest cutting that first chapter with Riel and using these as your first chapters and to set your world. You just need to cut some of the fluff/telliness and show more of Kale's motivation/inner workings.
Great Job!

[Hamster]

thanks Frog! I will choose to believe that you liked it, bu I'm still not sure if you did. I guess I just really have to work on this chapter.

yeah, I have a big problem with telliness, but hopefully as I mature(both as a writer and in general) that will start to go away a bit.
Also, yes, I have realized that the voice is detached, but that is because I was trying to give suspense and not give away a name until he spoke it himself, but I didn't figure out how to describe the beginning without being detached. thanks for that.

Yes, in fact they do have a room without windows, and it just so happens that Kale got it! odd how these coincidences seem to occur in writing, isn't it?

Sorry for the other random assassin guys coming in, I had a little bit more in before to explain it, but it really didn't work and I didn't really think to add something else to explain it. It was just a simple theft really, the innkeeper saw a bag full of gold and silver, and since he was scared by the sword, he got some local low lifes to do it. Unfortunate for him though.
 
As for Kale, well, sorry, but he is going to be a dark character throughout. I had hoped he was likable enough so that the reader wouldn't be wishing for his death, but that's fine if you do. You should give him a break though, he's had pretty darn hard life, which I think I hinted very slightly at at some points. He's also a Soul Taker, and as you will find out, it's impossible not to be dark when you're one of them. He is going to become less dark though, his progression is more like from crazy dark killer guy to a more likable guy who will actually begin to care for life. Hopefully. I wanted him to be a mix between(Mistborn characters here) Kelsier, Zane, and(robin hobb's character) Fitzchivalry, + a touch of darkness.

I also didn't want to give away too much of what drives him in his first chapter.( I will also try to cut down on the word try.)

Glad you like the concept of Soul Takers though, I really like it too. 

As for storyness, yes the next chapter actually continues withe same character! An actual plot will begin to arise!(Although, after my next chapter, I actually have nothing else usable written yet, just a chapter that I can't use, because it introduces yet another character(this one less main in this book, and doesn't flow with what I have yet. But you'll see it soon.)

Just a few questions.
Did the action work well?
Did you get the sense that Kale was a dark, complicated character? or did you just not care about him at all?

Thanks alot again Frog, your advice is always good.

[Frog]

Hey! I did so like it! You take that back right now!

Anyway...

I was trying to give suspense and not give away a name until he spoke it himself....

No offense, but that is a pretty cheep shot at suspense. It really doesn't make much of a difference to me what his name is at this point since I wouldn't recognize it anyway. But if you found a way to fix it, great!

Just a few questions.
Did the action work well?

It seemed fine to me, but I am a bad one to ask. Action stuff is NOT my forte...  .

Now characters on the other hand....

Did you get the sense that Kale was a dark, complicated character? or did you just not care about him at all?

As you will see if you read my stuff or any of my other comments on the forum, I am a big on characters whenever I read/write. It is far more important to me than ANY plot and I will and can harp on you all day about it.

So for Kale. Just because he is dark doesn't mean you can't get some sympathy or interest for your character. One of my favorite books had an assassin as a main character and I loved him. Some of the things they did was introduce him when he was accused of a murder he actually didn't commit and then show his arch when he found someone he couldn't kill. Now I am not suggesting you copy these ideas point blank, but you can see how that worked. He got my sympathy right up front and his arch was very interesting to follow.

So how do you do this? Well, I am sorry, but you just can't make a big POV character a mystery. If you want me to love him, it starts with understanding him. You don't have to info dump every detail about him, in fact, please don't, but  I am not interested in a big substance less shadow. I have to know how he feels about the world around him and why he does what he does, whether I agree with it or not. You have to show me some good points, even if the good points are just, 'he's funny,' or 'has a soft spot for kittens' or something. Don't sugar coat the faults either because they are part of your character and will make his good points stand out more.

And then, once you know and establish all this about your character, everything gets easier. Plots come together and dialogue/character interaction flows better. At least that has been my experience.

So to actually answer your question. I got the impression that he was dark and I might be convinced to call him complicated. But how he is presented now, I just didn't care. Not yet anyway.

[

Thanks alot again Frog, your advice is always good.

Aw, thanks

[Necroben]

Part one, hehe.

…as he approached the innkeeper.

How did he know who the innkeeper was?

Kale gave the innkeeper a ghostly smile that did not extend to his eyes…

While the imagery is great, extend doesn’t seem… quite right.  Maybe include, take in, or never reached?

…he walked up the steps, creaking just slightly on a few of them, and strode down the corridor…

Who creaked, Kale or the steps?

…now more of a barrier than a door.

Isn’t a door a kind of barrier?

…double-edged blade…

Did he unsheathe the sword?  Why would the narrator tell use about what the sword looks like before he unsheathes it?

His darting, suspicious grey eyes studied the array of weaponry before him…

Why is he suspicious of his own weapons?

…he whispered just loud enough to hear.

For who to hear?

…and he would in need of that later.

Maybe be in need, or have a need?

forty feet high; millimetres

Metric and standard?

…Kale leapt forward towards it.

It sounds as though he jumped from right there.

…and death had never got the best of either of them.

Maybe add yet to that.  So far, it’s obvious that he’s not dead.

This was the only way to go.

Why was it the only way to go?

…walked up to a grizzled old veteran, leaning his gnarled hands on a spear.  …dropped his own spear and fumbled at his own waist…

Ok, if he is a veteran, why drop the spear?  Does he not know how to use it?  If there is not enough room, why does he have it?

It is time to die he thought bitterly…

Why is it a bitter thought?  So far his actions prove that he is seeking death.  Though before he wasn’t so sure he still wanted to die.  Internal conflict is good, but Kale just seems confused.

…cracking his skull against the hard leather boot.

Often times I love long sentences, but I lost who was who in this one.  It seems like Kale got thumped with a boot.

All right, I have to stop here for now, but so far so good.  I think Kale is a bit too dark right now.  I agree with Frog, I’m not connected with Kale in any way yet.  While he may have some redeeming qualities, I haven’t seen them yet.  Nor anything of his motivation for assassinating anyone in the castle.  And if he’s an assassin why just kill everybody at the inn and then start a brawl in the fortress later?  So far his reasoning is a little suspect.  Maybe show sorrow, if not remorse for those he kills, or at least not the joy and/or humor in their terror.  But don’t let that get you down!  I really like the idea driving this story and the Soul Taker idea is very cool.

[Hamster]

Thanks again Frog, sorry for the mistake, I guess you did like it! and Thanks Necroben!

1) He had a sense  of who the innkeeper was, he was the only guy working there, etc. I can make excuses all day. I guess I should make it a little obvious first. thanks

2) You're right, extend does not work there. I think 'never reached' is good

3)bad mistake on my part, the steps are supposed to, I kind've used creak as a verb in my head, as in Kale was creaking the steps. lol. silly me

4)Yes, a door is a kind of barrier...but I guess I meant more like a slab of wood type of barrier that doesn't open and close on hinges.

5) yes, I thought he unsheathed the sword. maybe I'm wrong. Humph, now you're making me think. Wait, you're right, he didn't unsheathe it! well, as for excuses, maybe without my knowledge, he has x ray vision! No, I need to fix that.

6) Yes, his weapons are prone to attacking him. No, again, a pathetic attempt at a joke at my expense for messing up. Although, some of his weapons he should be wary of...but yeah, I'll take out suspicious.

7)For the innkeeper to hear.

8)yes, quite right, "be in need of later" of works much better than in would in need of later.

9)lol, big mistake on my part, I'll take out the millimetres, not needed there. thanks

10)yeah, awkward sentence

11)yes thanks, 'yet' would be great there

12) it was the only way to go because there was only one door to go through, any other way and he would be discovered anyways.

13)he's old, and is surprised by a guy standing there with a sword attacking him, because he wasn't expecting an attack. maybe he had arthritis or something. (hopefully this explanation works)

14)its bitter because he doesn't really know what he wants, he really doesn't want death, just peace from his tormentors, but he tries to convince himself that he wants to die. hopefully this works.

15)lol, the other guy got thumped by a boot, I need to clarify that sentence, or maybe break it down

Thanks for all the stuff, it was fairly helpful. Okay, so I guess Kale is a bit too dark right now, maybe too cavalier and careless in his killing? And the inn, he just killed the innkeeper, the thugs, and set the place on fire, I never said he was a very subtle assassin. He's just a brute who kills anyone and everyone because he can and because he was major issues. If you remember Euol's Zane, he had a voice telling him to kill, Kale has dozens of those voices, which also torment him and attack him, and try to kill him. He has it a little rough, and takes it out on society. And the killing at the castle was on orders. I'm just keeping the motives secret, because Kale doesn't know, he's just doing a job.

I will try to un darken Kale's character even more than I planned, and I he gets a little sympathetic later on, you start to realize the walls that he's built up around himself. But ohwell, I'm mostly glad that my concepts are liked, because as long as I've got them down, I'm always learning more about writing, so it's all good!

[Frog]

Kale has dozens of those voices, which also torment him and attack him, and try to kill him. He has it a little rough, and takes it out on society. And the killing at the castle was on orders. I'm just keeping the motives secret, because Kale doesn't know, he's just doing a job.

If you want sympathy for your character, that might be a good place to start. Just saying...

[Mathom]

Some Thoughts While Reading:
---Why is the innkeeper nervous?  Are swords strange to see on travelers in this setting?
---This inn must be really huge to have a room without windows.
---The innkeeper goes from apologetic to nervous sycophant.  Interesting.
---Everybody seems to stutter.
---Kale is a tormentor and a brute? Hmm . . .
---OOOoo!  Do we get to find out more about forging souls into daggers?!
---Men rush quietly into a room?!  With a broken door?
---Are Kale and the thug just watching the little guy die?  Is he the center of attention or is he dying quietly in the background?
---Be careful about your use of pronouns.  I'm getting lost in all the him's.
---Why were the other inn patrons merry?  This inn seems a pretty gloomy, decrepit place.
---Where'd that guard come from?  Was he waiting outside?  Was he following Kale?  He just rushes in a tries to arrest Kale? What?!
---What was the guards question?
---Whoa.  Kale's "I want your soul" was creepy and disturbing.  And then he sets the place on fire?!  This guy is scary.


General Thoughts:
---A very dark chapter.  You set the mood well and maintained it throughout the chapter.

---If Kale is the protagonist, I'm not sure I can root for him.  He isn't a very human character yet.  He does make a great villain, though.

---Be careful about grammar.  There were several times where words were missing or repeated so that the sentence didn't make sense.  Also be careful about the use of pronouns.  There were several places where it wasn't clear who "he" and "him" referred to.

---In some sections I had a hard time suspending disbelief.  I'll try to deal with those specifically.

Specific Thoughts:
---Why was the inn keeper nervous?  A traveler entering an inn carrying a sword shouldn't be that strange in a war torn land.  If it is strange, it needs to be set up as such before the reader gets to that part.

---The innkeeper needs to start obsequious if he is going to end up a simpering sycophant.  He starts out fairly normal and then before he sees any reason (other than a sword, which I mentioned) he begins grovelling for this traveler.

---The inn seems a run down and gloomy place, but people are making merry?  It startled me.

---The guard suddenly rushing in came out of nowhere.  You may want to mention him before we get inside the inn.  That way when he appears after the fight, he doesn't jump out of the air.

---"For any, er, trouble . . ."  Kale seems a self-confident character.  He shouldn't stutter in front of the innkeeper.

---The description of the collapse of the inn is very good, very ominous.  But it is in there twice.

---I found it hard to believe that a room full of guards who are supposed to defend an impenetrable castle would ignore the entrance of a strange figure in the dead of night.  I would think the guards nearest Kale would at least wonder who he was.

---Your magic system is interesting, but it threw me off the narrative until I had read for a ways after its introduction.  The soul takers step into another realm that sort of overlays the normal realm and souls appear as little balls of blue light?  I think it has potential, but the introduction about hanging fruit didn't really establish what was happening.

---The fight between soul takers was engaging.  I'm not sure how Kale won, though.  He was losing the whole time and the description is not clear how he managed to knock the other guys sword out of his hand.

---Kale is one creepy, evil guy.  I'm really hoping he is not the guy I am supposed to be rooting for.  Not unless something happens to make me like him, or at least sympathize with him on some level.

---Clever transition between Kale's assault on the castle and the King awakening to learn his sister is dead.

Nit-picky Thoughts:
---"He wrenched it open . . ., tearing out the handle."  Those doors must have been poorly constructed or Kale can't possibly be as tired as he seems.  Even if he isn't tired, it is hard to tear a door handle off.

---"Kale blocked his enemy's sword as it whirled through the air in an uppercut swing with one dagger;"  From the construction it is not clear whether the sword is whirling through the air with a dagger (which is silly) or whether Kale used the dagger to block the sword (which I think you meant).

---"Kale fell down . . . throwing his foot up at the man's hands,"  I guess feet can be "thrown up" but it bothered me as I was reading.  Maybe "kicked out" or something similar would be better in this sentence.
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Those are my thoughts.  I noticed you felt you had to defend yourself from my "while reading" comments.  Don't. Your writing is your own and you don't have to defend yourself to me.  I'm just a potential buyer of your next novel and I'm letting you know what difficulties I had with the narrative.  You can take my comments or leave them.

~Mathom

[Hamster]

Firstly, Welcome Mathom, I don't think I've seen you around before.

I'm not going to comment on everything, because I feel like my response posts are getting a little long and defensive, so I'll try and keep it short.

The innkeeper is nervous because this guy has a sword, and is dresssed in black, and has a foreboding presence. These are also suspicous and dangerous times.

The room just wasn't built with a window, poor workmanship.

You will find out some more about forging souls into weapons, but not too much.

The guy dying is screaming and writhing in agony with black tendrils running through his veins. definitely the centre of attention.

Sorry about the pronouns, I've got to work on that throughout.

The other patrons were merry because they were drunk, drowning their sorrows, and yeah, the whole area is a gloomy decrepit place. Like I said before, bad times.

the guard was passing by and heard a really loud commotion, came in to investigate(not sure if this works, but thats my story).

If you read that part again, the guard's question was

“Do ye think that you can just-“

and then Kale whacks his head into a support beam.

excellent, yes this guy is creepy, scary, disturbing, I'll be making him more sympathetic later on,but he's got a lot of anger stored up.

 by the way, did anyone catch the small hint that the fire may not have been normal fire?

thanks Frog, you're right, I should actually include what I'm thinking about my character to sympathize with into the book. Pure genius Frog, I don't know why I didn't think of it before! 

[Mathom]

I think the scene with the inn might be more understandable if Kale notices the decrepitude of the inn and how suspicious everyone is when he walks in.  As it is, it appeared like a normal inn that has fallen on hard times, but the regular customers come to enjoy a laugh and a drink.  Then suddenly the innkeeper is kissing Kale's boots, he sends thugs to quietly(?) rob Kale, Kale breaks up merry revelers, and then a guard pops out of thin air.

 If times are as hard as that, people should be wallowing in their alcohol and wouldn't be happy no matter how drunk they got.

If the innkeeper is so devious as to send thugs to rob and murder his patrons, we need a hint of that when we first meet him.

If the guard is hanging around the inn, we need to hear of it before he bursts out of nowhere.

I guess I'm talking about foreshadowing the little things as well as the big ones.

I thought the action worked really well.  There were just a few word choices, "throw up feet" for example, that jarred me out of the narrative.  Also some sequences were hard to follow.  As hokey as it may be, you might get some friends or some action figures and pantomime how the various kicks and punches follow one another.  Then you can ask "Could someone really pull this move off?" or "How exactly should I describe this punch?"

~Mathom

[Hamster]

yeah, I come across as a bit defensive,sorry about that. I'm just explaining it to see if you think my explanations make sense. I want to be able to answer your comments so that I can integrate my explanations into the book.

So thanks for replying, your comments were helpful, I'm starting to realize that I need to clarify alot of things to the reader.

[jwdenzel]

Hi Hamster,

Once again, your pacing is your strength there. I pounded through the first 10 pages (of this 27 page submission... O_O) in no time. Nice work.   As before, the prose could be stronger, but that's okay. Better to get your story down on the page, right? Not that it's bad!  At some point I just suggest you go back and do a revision simply to improve the language, and really make it shine.

You asked about Kale's characterization.  Well, he seems like a jerk. I don't like him as a person.  I mean... he hunted and killed a little thug after the man was running away.    As a character, he's an interesting anti-hero. I look forward to seeing where you take this.

After he burns the inn down, he suddenly falls to his knees because of the voices. What triggered that? It wasn't obvious to me. You say he "constantly" hears the voices... so why is it so hard to handle all of a sudden?

Another Soul Taker was there.

When I read this, I thought  "Ah, cool. This will be good. "

On the other hand though, I also realized that we were 16 pages into the chapter and this is the first time Kale has been challenged.  So far, things have been too easy.  (Except for his headache thing earlier).

“My name is Katrina, Katrina Chaldren.”

You might want to explain WHO she is.  Wife of the king? Daughter? Sister?   Especially because Kale already knows who she is.  (Updated: actually, maybe it works fine this way. It has some good pay-off when the king later reveals her relationship to him.)

...he began to feel a twinge of something on his conscience, something in the back of his mind that told him something was wrong.
He groaned as he realized what it was… he was supposed to be finished and escaping already!

That sounded cheesy to me.     "Hmmm, what am I supposed to be doing? Breaking in... check.  Subduing guards... check.   Kill random princess.... check... Ah yes! Escaping!"

(Again, sorry for the sarcastic humor.  My intent is not to mock your work, but rather express the silliness it conveyed to me in that moment. )

He found himself staring into dark eyes, but he couldn’t quite tell who it was.  ....   It was JadeEyes.

OMG!   BRAVO!   Dude, you played me like a guitar at at a rock concert there.   I fully fell for your bait and switch w/r/t Kale's intended victim. Well done.  Brilliantly setup.

Dude... props.  Mad props.


(Or maybe I'm an idiot for not seeing it. Did anybody actually GUESS that?)


The last "Chapter to Be" was pretty good too. I hope we get to see more of the King. I like him better than Kale.

Overall:
Nice work!  The biggest gap here is internal conflict.  There's some, but for the most part Kale just has easy choices to make. There are hints to his character (the stuff surrounding his wife, for example) that show he's not just a one dimensional killer. So show us some of that conflict. Let him be a cold killer on the outside, but on the inside, show us the turmoil.    Katrina is a great opportunity for this....


Looking forward to more

[Hamster]

Hey jwdenzel, glad you`re liking the story!

You asked about Kale's characterization. Well, he seems like a jerk. I don't like him as a person. I mean... he hunted and killed a little thug after the man was running away. As a character, he's an interesting anti-hero. I look forward to seeing where you take this.

After he burns the inn down, he suddenly falls to his knees because of the voices. What triggered that? It wasn't obvious to me. You say he "constantly" hears the voices... so why is it so hard to handle all of a sudden?

I actually realized now that I do want Kale to be an unsympathetic jerk at first, and then gradually become sympathetic, I realized that any of my twists and the general flow will work much better this way.

The hearing voices is so hard to handle all of a sudden because he had just tapped into his soul, *slight spoilers* and there be demons and darkness in the Unknown Realm, who make it very difficult for Soul Takers to keep their sanity. Imagine the machin shin from Wheel of Time, constantly, and then amplified when you are in the unknown realm, and miniature balrogs trying to grab your soul. (this is one of the reasons Soul Takers take other souls, to make a barrier of souls for the Darkness to take over instead of their own soul.(which the demons are part of, they aren`t actually demons, just entites of pure darkness and evil) Not very fun. *End of slight spoilers* It isn`t supposed to be very obvious, but I`ll reveal this stuff more in depth later on.

Another Soul Taker was there.

When I read this, I thought "Ah, cool. This will be good. "

On the other hand though, I also realized that we were 16 pages into the chapter and this is the first time Kale has been challenged. So far, things have been too easy. (Except for his headache thing earlier).

 My only question here is: was it cool and good, or was it a disappointment with their fight? Oh, and Kale isn`t going to be very challenged yet, he`s literlly a killing machine, so not much will be a challenge, but don`t worry, he conveniently runs into the few things that can challenge him in the book.

...he began to feel a twinge of something on his conscience, something in the back of his mind that told him something was wrong.
He groaned as he realized what it was… he was supposed to be finished and escaping already!

That sounded cheesy to me. "Hmmm, what am I supposed to be doing? Breaking in... check. Subduing guards... check. Kill random princess.... check... Ah yes! Escaping!"

(Again, sorry for the sarcastic humor. My intent is not to mock your work, but rather express the silliness it conveyed to me in that moment. )

haha, yes, I`m finding that funny as I read what I wrote, it was right after I read an Edgar Allen Poe story, and there was a similar phrase(although much better and not funny) and I liked it, so I decided to put my own spin on it. Didn`t work very well though.

He found himself staring into dark eyes, but he couldn’t quite tell who it was. .... It was JadeEyes.

OMG! BRAVO! Dude, you played me like a guitar at at a rock concert there. I fully fell for your bait and switch w/r/t Kale's intended victim. Well done. Brilliantly setup.

Dude... props. Mad props.


(Or maybe I'm an idiot for not seeing it. Did anybody actually GUESS that?)

yay, I loved writing that part, because of all the suspense I had tried to integrate in my book, I think this scene worked out the best. glad you`re liking it for the most part, thanks for the advice!