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Messages - Skeptic

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« on: March 17, 2009, 01:09:15 PM »
So I guess you're saying I can rest assured Sanderson is unlikely to have Joseph Smith popping out of a dimensional portal and saving the world at the end of the book.  Good to know.   ;)

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« on: March 17, 2009, 12:18:58 PM »
I know many Mormons. They tend to be very nice people. I haven't said otherwise. They also tend not to ask many questions. And that's the problem. I suppose Blood of the Prophets is "anti-Mormon literature" because it relates historical facts and raises questions that most Mormons aren't comfortable facing.

I'm not surprised B. Sanderson says nothing critical of anything ever done by the Mormon church in light of the way the church treats critics.

Thomas Murphy, a Mormon college professor, dared publish an academic essay proving with genetic evidence that American Indians didn't come from Israel, and was nearly expelled from the church for doing so. According to this Wall Street Journal article, "Apparently I don't believe the way they want me to believe," said the lifelong Mormon with a master's degree in anthropology who is chairman of the department at Edmonds Community College in Lynnwood, Wash.  (A copy of the original WSJ article is here: http://www.happinessonline.org/MoralCode/LiveWithTruth/p28.htm). 

Also according to the article, an Egyptologist was expelled from the Mormon church for pointing out that Joseph Smith had made an error in translating an ancient document.

So here we have the Mormon church threatening to expel academics for stating simple incontrovertible facts based on their own research. In this day and age, the leadership of very few faiths would do so.

In light of all this, I think I'm absolutely justified in my suspicion that Sanderson must ensure that nothing in any of his books could potentially anger the Mormon church elders if brought to their attention.  This in turn may influence the writing of the last book in the Wheel of Time series.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« on: March 17, 2009, 07:04:39 AM »
It is disingenuous to argue that Mormon preaching and practice as directed by the leaders of its church wasn't racist until quite recently (after 1978).  These practices rest on a foundation found in the "holy scripture"' revered by Mormons. Saying that the passages I quoted from Mormon scripture refer only to "Lamanites" and their descendants misses the essential point, which is that according to these passages God marked his displeasure with an entire race by turning them black and therefore "loathsome", as opposed to God's chosen who were white and therefore "delightsome".

Really, we need only to look to what Brigham Young (the same guy the university at which Mr. Sanderson teaches  was named after) wrote and preached on the subject:

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their
habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed
upon mankind.
The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that
would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon
him, which is the flat nose and black skin
. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is
pronounced upon the same race − that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that
curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race
to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the
Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the
blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are
brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the
Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be
removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be
removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion.


This is the very same man who ordered the massacre by Mormon militia of 120 non-Mormon settlers--men, women and children murdered in cold blood--on their way to California, a singular event in American history known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

That it was Brigham Young himself who ordered the attack seems undeniable in light of the weight of evidence presented by modern historians including Will Bagley, who won over 9 awards for his account of this atrocity as set forth in his book, Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows, including the Western History Association’s John W. Caughey Prize for the year’s most distinguished book on the history of the American West. Young apparently ordered the massacre as an act divine retribution for the slaying of Joseph Smith, the founder the Mormon faith--he was guided in this by a peculiar theory known as the "blood of atonement", which holds that while some some wrongs can be righted with the blood of animals (recall the references to animal sacrifice in the Old Testament), some injustices are so grave atonement requires the blood of men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Bagley

Bagley, while widely regarded as having authored the "definitive work" on the subject, is simply the most notable in a long line of respected historians who have fingered Brigham Young for this crime. I am unaware of any historian today contesting the conclusions reached by Bagley, et. al. except of course the Mormons and those affiliated with them.

The Mormon faith isn't unique in relying upon despicable scriptural sources; we need look no further than Judges 21 of the Old Testament, in which God in his infinite wisdom orders the massacre of all of the men, women and children in Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls.

It also isn't unique in having inspired its adherents to commit murder: the Crusades, the Thirty Years War, the Bosnian conflict, 9/11, etc. etc.

What is particularly disturbing about the Mormon faith, though, is its monolithic nature, and the lack of any real dissent within its church. When it comes to matters of faith, its followers generally march in lock-step unison (although generalizations aren't worth much when applied to individuals). They are literalists when it comes to the interpretation of scripture (Sanderson has explained matters of faith here with the apparently self-sufficient explanation, "It's in the Scripture."). And when it comes to the conduct of their church, they do not admit mistakes. To this day, Brigham Young is lauded as a hero by Mormons.

A telling sign of how the Mormon church truly regarded the events that transpired at Mountain Meadows was the 1961 posthumous reinstatement into the Mormon church and restoration of Temple blessings of John Lee, the only man tried and executed for the Mountain Meadow murders. This is curious in light of the fact that the Mormon scriptures command as follows:

Doctrine and Covenants 42:18: "...he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."   132:27:  "The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood,...after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant..."

The Mormon church elders as of 1961 clearly did not regard John Lee as having shed "innocent blood". Chilling.

I hope this explains why I said I was "troubled" to discover that the author of the final book in The Wheel of Time series is a devout Mormon.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« on: March 16, 2009, 05:40:53 PM »
Let me frame this another way, and put the shoe on the other foot, so to speak.

There's a Muslim sci-fi book out there entitled Mosque Among the Stars

http://ahmedakhan.livejournal.com/18904.html

Looks interesting; beautiful cover. I'd pick it up and give it a look-see if I encountered it in a bookstore. Although I have no pressing desire to learn anything more about the Mormon faith, I think it is urgent we better understand the Muslim faith. In a way, I'd be more comfortable with the religious underpinnings of this book than Elantris or Warbreaker since there'd be no attempt to disguise them.

But what if, prior to reading the book, you learned that the editors / authors Muhammad Aurangzeb Ahmed & Ahmed Khan supported the 9/11 attacks as the righteous judgment of Allah delivered upon the wicked and/or regarded Osama bin Ladin as a hero? Would you be available to divorce yourself from this knowledge as you read the book, even if nothing of the sort was directly stated in the book?

(This is a purely hypothetical example. I expect these two gentlemen, both Muslims, hold no such beliefs regarding 9/11.)

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« on: March 16, 2009, 04:55:00 PM »
Of course there is no direct reference to the Mormon faith in Sanderson's mainstream fantasy novels. As all of them are set in fictitious worlds, any blatant direct reference would rather spoil the atmosphere.

I do believe understanding an author's background is relevant to a clearer understanding of their works. This is standard practice for any academic in the field of literature. Sometimes, though, we may not like what we find.

I do like what Sanderson said in his blog entitled "Pullman and Censorship":

 http://www.brandonsanderson.com/article/52/EUOLogy-On-Pullman-and-Censorship

It responds at least tangentially to the concerns stated in my prior posts in this thread, although I prefer to find my fiction unencumbered by an author's world view that is not just different, but largely antithetical to my own.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« on: March 16, 2009, 03:29:26 PM »
I'm not an atheist, but an agnostic. I realize that I don't have all the big answers. I don't believe things because someone else tells me to believe them. Perhaps some being or beings with god-like powers actually did create the human race, or Earth, or the universe. I think the likelihood of this is quite small, but ultimately, life's short & I'm not going to spend much time worrying about questions that I cannot answer.

But do I find stories about, e.g., men living for days in the bellies of giant fish to be absurd?  Yeah. Call me crazy.

So what's this have to do with Brandon Sanderson? Among other things, he's writing the last book in the Wheel of Time series. Although I thought the quality of Robert Jordan's books declined as the series grew longer in tooth, the first few are dear to my heart and precious to me. And an appropriate conclusion to Robert Jordan's life work is important to me. I don't want to find myself stumbling across artifacts of Mr. Sanderson's Mormon faith when I read the last book in that series, authored by him. I don't know if he can avoid doing so, as his religious faith is clearly deeply rooted and of the unquestioning, "It's in Scripture so it's settled" variety.

Frankly I wish Mr. Sanderson had kept his personal beliefs regarding religion private, as now I may see things that aren't even there when I read his next book.

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Brandon Sanderson / Mormonism & Sanderson's Writing
« on: March 16, 2009, 07:52:23 AM »
Before anything else, let me say that I regard B. Sanderson as an enormously talented writer. I have read his Mistborn and Elantris novels, and regard them as ranking among the best fantasy novels in recent years.

With that said, I was troubled to learn that he is a devout Mormon. While all religious faiths rely on rather absurd premises, core Mormon doctrines enshrined in their sacred texts are especially pernicious, particularly those that elevate racism to the status of divine judgment of a people's intrinsic worth as human beings.

Consider the book Elantris again, and the description of the curse in it that is the foundation for the novel (i.e., a fair-skinned race turned dark and loathsome by a divine curse, and a city whose very walls were transformed in color from white to black to visibly mark the city's descent from purity into corruption), in light of this:

_________________

2 Nephi 5:21-23:

"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

"And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities."

"And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done."

"And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey."

 2 Nephi 30:6:

"...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people."


3 Nephi 2:15:

"And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites."


The above was the basis for the Mormon church refusing to ordain blacks as ministers until after the year 1978, at which time the leaders of the Mormon church received a new "revelation" that God had apparently changed his mind about blacks, and they weren't spiritually inferior to whites after all (this change of heart was rather convenient for the extremely wealthy Mormon faith, as the IRS had been threatening to revoke its tax-exempt status because of the faith's racist teachings and practices). 

I believe Sanderson's internal struggle with these passages and past practices of his church is revealed in Elantris. I am heartened by Sanderson's portrayal of the character Galladon in Elantris, a heroic character who was also a black man.

A common theme running through Elantris and Warbreaker is men becoming gods. It is not surprising that Sanderson is preoccupied with this, since an oddity of the Mormon faith is that it is not a monotheistic one like Christianity, Judaism or the Muslim faith. Rather, it is a polytheistic / henotheistic one embracing the idea that there are many gods, and that the god that created the Earth was once a man living on a distant world who became a god. Indeed, according to Mormon doctrine the faithful can themselves ascend to godhood and rule their own worlds. I guess to Mormons, Milton's Satan in Paradise Lost presents a false choice by saying, "Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."

As far as I am concerned, this isn't many steps removed from the beliefs underlying Scientology. Compare Sanderson's own statement that the Mormon church teaches "... that before we were born, we lived as spirits, and were involved in the production of this world.  We chose to come to this planet...", with the belief of Scientologists that souls ("thetans") have lived on other planets before living on Earth, and that the spiritual community of souls created the universe through collective belief in its existence.

The following article (written by a Christian, something that I am not) presents an interesting analysis of whether the Mormon faith is a polytheistic or henotheistic one:

http://contenderministries.org/mormonism/polytheism.php

This entertaining cartoon explains the key teachings of the Mormon church, although it apparently isn't liked much by Mormons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo

I'm interested in how others feel about how Sanderson's faith has influenced his novels, with examples given from his writing, and also any portions of his novels that reveal a break with Mormon teachings. If I'd been aware of Sanderson's beliefs at the time I'd read his books, I'd have had a keen eye on which characters if any imbibed coffee or smoked tobacco.

(A final word: I am not a religious scholar of any sort, let alone an expert on the Mormon faith. If I've relied on erroneous information about the Mormon faith in writing the above, please explain the nature of the error.)

[title edited to better reflect thread - TJK]

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