One reason TO hate Italy.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

yeah, but I bet a lot of people would be saying that it was deliberate, in fact I can almost say without reservation that Anne Coulter, and Rush would be calling for Italian blood. I can bet a few senators and congressmen might even have said it was deliberate.

It doesnt mean that we should hate Italy, especially since we can all see that they are upset. Just because a few pundits are calling for blood doesnt make them right or even widely belived. Anyway I dont know maybe its just me or the limitations of the internet, but I see this thread going off in a racist direction and it makes me uncomfortable.

There are two facts that remain relevent to me in this case.

1. Italy has been a good ally contributing troops to help us during the war and to help us keep the peace.

Country No. of troops
United Kingdom 8,220
Italy 3,000
Poland 2,500

2. An Italian officer was killed and a civilian journalist injured, by friendly fire.

The facts beyond that are largely unknown and disputed.

Now Im not saying that our boys shot up the car because our government told them too, because they didnt. But they could have been jumpy, and pulled the trigger before they should have. Its a dagerous road (the road to the airport) and there have been a lot of bombings. There should have been better communicatioin between us and our allies. (and certainly a better escort)

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

It needs to be clarified.
-Im not calling anyone here racist, just saying that I feel like the conversation is starting to go down that road.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

The difference is not just that they're saying we did it on purpose, but also that it is largely their own government's ineptitude that caused it in the first place.

I listened to an interview with one of the officers over the soldiers who actually pulled the trigger. There was no response to challenge, and the car tried to run the barricade. There is no way to find fault with the American soldiers in that situations. The Italian soldier who died should have had brain enough to know this was going to wind up the way it did.

This is beyond the territory of "accident." the soldiers responded EXACTLY as they should have. They were doing their duty, and the people who were shot at were, whether under orders to do so or not, doing a very dumb thing.

[Skar]

-Im not calling anyone here racist, just saying that I feel like the conversation is starting to go down that road.

What?  In what way?

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

The failure of a driver to slow down becomes their governments ineptitude?

Our government has admitted that its possible that the italian driver did not see the hand signs. Which is reasonable considering that two guys in a car driving through an area thats extremely dangerous may be a little to distracted to pay full attention. And then of course there is the whole language thing.

The interview on the italian side says that there was no challenge, one minute they were driving and the next they were under fire. I realize that Its natural to take our side in a he said she said kind of thing like this, but it seems premature, especially since the army isn't taking our word for it and is investigating the matter. Actually I find it difficult t take anyones word in the matter because everyone has a powerful motivation to lie.

Hating italy for the whole thing is kind of stupid. I just wanted to say I disagree. Anyhow Im getting out of this conversation before it becomes a bash anyone who doesnt agree with us one. Mainly to keep Saint and I from arguing more. Im just going to agree to disagree.

[Skar]

Well, I for one took the whole "hate Italy" thing to be a tongue in cheek way to introduce a rant about people making silly yet harmful accusations against our country and countrymen.

I don't actually hate all Italians.  Surely you don't think anyone in this conversation does?

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

I dont think they do hate Italy 100%, but there is a lot of real venom there as well, which is why I think its starting to go down the racist path. Tongue and cheek is fine, but this hasnt been real tongue and cheek, its been a bunch of facts used to show why italy is wrong and stupid. At the best thats jingoism and the worst its the beginnings of racism. I dont know frankly which it is, but it makes me uncomfortable even though I know that I've certainly been guilty of it myself in the past. Recently Ive had some experiences that make me doubt the opinions I had. Im disturbed by the generalizations made in the I hate France thread. Im not trying to preach about the last part, just trying to explain how I feel.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

The failure of a driver to slow down becomes their governments ineptitude?

No, the government for any instant believing it's a good idea not to tell the guys with the guns who are known to be guarding a region of territory and who will obviously be immediately suspicious of any or all strange activity, esp activity that they are not given prior information about. THAT is ineptitude. And that's what I've said is idiotic and inept since my first post. The fact that the Italian government thought it would be safer to send them in without anyone's prior knowledge, just shows their inherant nationalistic mistrust of us. Another symptom that leads me to think the general sentiment in Italy is not just one of tragedy over the loss of a soldier, but anti-American sentiment not based in anything rational.  I can ALMOST understand not telling an ally that you are negotiating with your common enemy (I say "almost" because the US is, de facto, leading the coalition over there, and it's just impolite and nigh conspiratorial to do such a thing). But I can *never* understand a government refusing to communicate with its allies about planned civilian movement, at night, through a secure area. How is any of that anything BUT inept?

Hating italy for the whole thing is kind of stupid. I just wanted to say I disagree. Anyhow Im getting out of this conversation before it becomes a bash anyone who doesnt agree with us one. Mainly to keep Saint and I from arguing more. Im just going to agree to disagree.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I always seem to think that, especially when I make the statement in the context of a joke, that such obviously absurd and blanket statement will be taken as at least a little farcical. I thought you knew me well enough to know that I don't really hate all Italians, Jeffe. I'm kind of disappointed that you thought I really do.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

its been a bunch of facts used to show why italy is wrong and stupid. At the best thats jingoism and the worst its the beginnings of racism.

So pointing out that someone has had a major lapse of judgement certainly demonstrating unfitness to be running operations like this is racism? Sorry, no. That dog won't hunt. I'm just calling it like I see it. I think it's likely, from your last post, that you are projecting your feelings of recent personal experience on to the intentions of other posters.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

check your PM's

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

checked,responded. Thanks.

[Skar]

Oh, now that's unfair.

NO WHISPERING!

[Peter Ahlstrom]

The "one reason to hate italy" is a joke off EOUL's "one reason to love france" thread...

[Entsuropi]

It's not like the italians don't have a history of silliness. They have been pulling silly buggers in the EU for a long time now, with a series of moronic and corrupt governments. I know my dads transport company refuses to work in italy because it doesn't want to deal with bribing all the officials.

[Oseleon]

keep in mind that
Each nation has it's own intrests
For 1 nation to climb, another must decend
Currently the US is at the top of the Geopolitical ladder in respect to economics and Might.  

Therefore,  any nation that wants to get to the top has to displace the USA

Thus I am not supprised that many of the upper echelon nations have taken the current global instablity to help better their own situation at the expense of the USA.  

From a completly Machivellian standpoint, I could easily see the Italian Government setting the US up for a fall by not communicating this event.  This would allow the global community to give the US another black eye in the aftermath and possibly isolate it from more of it's allies.  

Keep in mind that this therory is entirely speculation and based upon an unporoven assumption that National leaders are only concerned with their own nation's advancement.  

That said,  I have found that many of the comments and criticisms from Europian posters on the internet tend to believe, as an article of faith, that GW Bush's motivations are just as, if not more selfish than the motives I have pointed out above.  The concept that GW is an Idealist in the cause of liberty is laughed off as Jingoist fantasy when it is just political optomism.  

So, yes, there is tension.  In the US, it feels like we are the ones trying to fix the world's problems, while Europe sits back with a "you will fail so don't try attitude"

I am guessing that in Europe (from other statements I have read) It feels like Europians are respecting other nation's privacy while the US keeps barging in and barking orders.  

As to where I stand...  Well, I believe in what we are doing and I think that evidence that it is working in currentl displayed with the possible pull-out of Syria from Lebanon.  
I think Bush applied preasure at the correct point to effect a series of events that will lead to the mid-east equivelant of the fall of the Berlin wall.  

But I would be classified as an Idealist and Optomist.