Timewaster's Guide Archive
General => Rants and Stuff => Topic started by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on March 09, 2005, 10:23:31 AM
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Inspired partially by the reason not to hate France, let's look at Italy's actions lately.
Recently, the US took a lot of heat rfor firing on a civilian car that held a recently freed hostage of Italian nationality and journalistic occupation, injuring the journalist and killing one of her escorts.
Y'know, never mind that they were unannounced, in a hostile area on a controlled road, didn't identify themselves, and according to WMAL news radio tried to run a barricade.
Turns out that Italy negotiated the release of this prisoner secretly, purposefully keeping the US in the dark. So basically, it wasn't a lack of communications in the US armed forces, it was her own damn government's fault for being idiots. You'd think they'd have half a brain enough to tell us what was happening... at least AFTER the deal was struck. But no, we'll risk being shot out and then blame the stupid yanks.
Italian wankers. This really pisses me off. I mean, you all know my feelings on being there, but in this case, what the heck else were the soldiers supposed to do? I'd have blown up the car too. Stupid Italians just had no clue how to do something like this. But what can you expect from a country that would elect Musellini
{interesting note: the morning after the car was fired on Washington Post (more middle-of-the-road but still liberal paper) and the Washington Times (definitely a conservative paper) both reported the incident. Y'know, it seems pretty shameful when you only know that US troops shot at an ally civilian. But the next day, when it comes out that Italy was withholding important info, the Times ran the story as a front-page headline. The Post didn't even mention the communication breakdown. Don't anyone ever tell me that journalism is on the whole impartial. Because you'd be WRONG.}
Ok, and here's the clincher. Yesterday WMAL reported a little bit more. Apparently this stupid, idiotic journalist is trying to claim that the US did it on purpose because we disagree with the negotiating for hostage release thing. Right. Because, y'know, she has so much evidence for this. Want to know why Europe hates the US? Not because we're louts or braggarts of chaw-bacon hick hillbillies. It's because governments and media in places like Italy are full of RETARDED BIGGOTS who couldn't find their ass with both hands after someone had just rammed a 10 foot pole into it.
Sorry, it gets my goat. Anti-US sentiment is based on cowardice and ignorance, not our policies or attitudes. Things like this make me want to go ahead and say "yeah, just blow them all up. In a hundred years or so it'll be habitable and we'll colonize it all."
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I got linked to this on the net. I loved the way the woman (who, guess what, runs a left wing paper) said, 'and it is important that this sort of information gets passed to the americans, by my government, so it is the americans fault.' Basically she assumed that it was the US fault because her own government MUST have passed the information along.
Oh and, 'One of the terrorists told me just before my release, 'Be careful, the americans will not take kindly to you''. Well, duh. He's a friggin arab terrorist. Not the most impartial chap y'know.
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Oh yeah, and there is a EU embargo on selling weapons to China, which some countries want to lift but the USA tells them not to. The EU loves to maintain world peace, aye.
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oh, who WOULDN'T trust a man who is illegally holding you prisoner and making threats against your life and your nation and rebelling violently? I mean, even boy scouts aren't more trustworthy than that.
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Must have been Stockholm Syndrome.
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the whole debate would have been over if they had cameras like cops do recording the daily stops...
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You know what I hate about Italy? Those Italian Cream Sodas from the Spaghetti Factory. Yuck.
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also: Mario Brothers.
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Ok, I completely agree with the hate of Italy. But let's leave the Mario Brothers out of this. Excellent games.
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ooooh... how I hates them...
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there are only two good things about italy: spagetti and pizza. Other than that, Italy can kiss my butt.
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" Sorry, it gets my goat. Anti-US sentiment is based on cowardice and ignorance, not our policies or attitudes."
And the fact that americans have attitudes like that is why I hate americans.
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So you hate Americans cause Americans hate people who hate them?
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So you hate Americans because they have a certain attitude?
Is what SE (I think you were quoting SE...) expressed false?
If so, what is anti-american sentiment based on in your opinion?
If it's true, what's wrong with Americans having that attitude?
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I'm too wrapped up in my own life and problems to worry about hating people who might or might not hate me for being an American.
But then I know some people hate Americans for not caring about the rest of the world.
;D
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yeah, jam, that was a weak response. I spent several paragraphs giving factual evidence of the Italian government going FUBAR all over the place, and an opinion maker using absolutely NO evidence making an accusation of well, an evil crime on the US's part. i believe my conclusion, though passionately stated, was entirely rational. If the rest of the world hates Americans because we're passionate and rational, well, then frankly, you're all wrong.
Essentially, this journalist MADE UP a reason for people to be mad at us. She INTENTIONALLY stirred the pot to make more problems. And she did it with NO evidence whatsoever. That was basing a hatred on ignorance and cowardice.
I'm really tired of idiots like this journalist and the schmucks at Little Gamers trashing America. The LG guys say they don't hate America, but they can't go 3 days without making up some stupid reason that all Americans are stupid. frankly, I'm glad they hate us if they're prejudiced like that. I don't need friends like that.
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Granted the journalist isnt exactly in her right mind... shes been a prisoner for a while... so yeah Im thinking stockholm syndrome...
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A perspective on journalism (http://www.ozyandmillie.org/2005/om20050309.html)
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There are actualy rumors going around that she told a friend that was on the other end of a cell phone, that she thought the driver was going too fast and she thought it would be ironic if after this they all crashed.
As for Stockholm Syndrome; she stated in an interview that she ask the kidnappers why they took her, some one who was on their side, and not americans. So ya, I think she was allready on their side long before she got kidnapped.
SE, you'll never make any Euros (except Brittians) like us becasue they hate we're not cowards like them, stick up for our belifes and don't roll over when ever someone states they don't like us. Can we help it if we're acutaly proud of who we are?
While I admit that the Itilan PM is, next to Bliar, one of our best allies, the Itilan people have allwayse pissed me off. A few years ago I was walking across BYU campus with a Japanese friend and we ran into someone she knew form her ESL (english as a second language) class who was itilan. After a few minutes of talking the Gaurd member took down the US flag, which we happend to be standing near (JKHB) so I saluted along with most every one else. After words the Itilan girl started to make fun of me, an americans in general, for doing so and calmly stated something along the lines that I was showing respect to the freedoms I have here and the solders fighting in afganistan. She then started to talk about how horrible of a place america was and that I shouldn't show respect to anything dealing with it. And this got me mad. I asked her why she was here then if it was such a horrible place, and she stated "Well becasue I cannot get into school in Italy nor could a get a good paying job". Long story short I basicaly told her how mad it made me she was comming here, enjoying a life she couldn't in her home country, and do nothing by complane about how "horrible" it was. I then told her if she hated it so much she should leave and let someone else who would appreciate all she had here take her place. This pretty much shut her up.
I don't mind if people have problems with certain aspects of america, nothings perfect, but she had nothing good (or refused) to say about it.
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C'mon... "they hate we're not cowards like them"? You can't just unilaterally claim that all europeans are cowards and aren't proud of their countries. I've spent some time living in both France and Germany, and I've found that many of them are very proud of their home countries. Their countries all have military service, and many if not most of their young men serve time in their military. Just because your country isn't "undefeated" in war doesn't mean you're a coward.
That isn't to say I don't agree that this particular Italian journalist has a bias against the US. It's quite clear she does, and has no facts to back up any of her claims that she was deliberately targetted because the US didn't want to see her freed. That's just silly.
I personally don't agree 100% with our reasons for being over in Afghanistan and Iraq, at least our continued presence over there. But I want to see every soldier return home safely. And regardless of my personal views, if soldiers are over there, they need to do the job they were sent to do.
I just think it's a bit of a stretch to say that because one or two Italians happen to not like us, we hate everyone in the entire country. If that was acceptable, then everyone in the world would hate Americans, because I ran into American tourists when I was overseas, and the only people I have ever met who were ruder, more obnoxious and more offensive than the majority of these tourists, were the British soccer fans who came down to France for big matches. They win hands down for being the worst.
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True that. The police are constantly putting in new measures to deal with them.
Enforced sterilisation works well imo.
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I can easly call them cowards. When ever there's a problem in the world the European goverments turn their heads the other direction (in the case of France it's usealy becaue of finacial reasons, like in kosovo, Iraq and now in the Congo) and hope the problem will go away. The majority of Europeans endorce these policies, ignoreing atrocites or appeaseing the ones doing it only encourages the offenders. However, I have no doubt they would defend their own country if it were invaded or attacked.
As for not likeing their own coutries, if they did they wouldn't be in the European Union, the goal of that orginization is to force all the countries in it to be the same.
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I didn't say that all non-Americans hate Americans. I'm just looking at the amazingly prevelant anti-US sentiment in the world right now. Everyone I see who advocates anti-US policies is actively looking for reasons to hate us. They won't look at the good we do (how much a year is spent on foreign aid?) but if we elect someone they don't like suddenly we're the evilest of evil empires ever. These people who possess anti-American are the people I'm targeting. I know the subject of the thread is more broad than that, but I thought, as rational human beings, we'd be able to realize that I am intelligent enough to not seriously make blanket statements like all Italians are dumb.
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I did read it as you were making a blanket statement, SE. But noted, obviously even without knowing you I don't think you're stupid, and if you didn't mean it that way I won't take it that way. And I agree with you, many times the good the US does in the world is ignored whenever there is a problem. But that is kind of a staple of modern journalism as well. Never mind how much good a person does, you'll rarely hear about that, but as soon as they slip up and there might be a scandal involved... all over the headlines.
I think it's great to be proud of your country, I just hate it when that somehow comes across as "My country is better than yours."
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I've REALLY been trying to keep the pride down, ever since my mission when I had Canadian room mates. I have many friends that I talk to regularly in Romania, UK, Australia, Canada, South Africa, Norway, and several others. I don't want to lose those friendships because I love my country.
However, I read/hear about this, and I make an assumption. Maybe it's not valid, but I'm willing to bet it is. I think right now the general climate in Italy is that the US is a collection of oppressive, domineering swine who shoot at allies who do things against American policy. And this because ITALY'S government made some extremely ill-advised decisions. That angers me.
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I think it's great to be proud of your country, I just hate it when that somehow comes across as "My country is better than yours."
I don't think my country is better then most, I just happen to currently think my goverment is, which isn't saying much.
I lived in Japan for 2 years, mission, and loved the people and country, but hated how racists and sexists thier goverment was. When, in a country, a someone gets off from rape charges with the defence "She was dressed like she wanted to be raped" then there are problems.
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Now I know why JP likes Japan! :P
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I worked with a couple guys who lived over in Japan for a while. Yeah, they mentioned similar experiences of racism vs. westerners. Some funny stories. My friends speak Japanese, so they were able to understand a lot of what was said to them. One guy entered a grocery store with his girlfriend, and the manager of the store comes over the loudspeaker and says something to the effect of, "Ladies, please watch your purses. There are westerners in the store." Another friend couldn't find an apartment for over a month because everywhere he went, they refused to rent to a gaijin.
In my industry, I've had the chance to work with people from all over the world. When I was working on Far Cry in Germany, there were 16 different nationalities on my team. But maybe these people I meet aren't typical of other people from their countries. The video game industry attracts a weird breed of people. They've all been fairly pro-US and pro-any company that makes cool games. I worked with a couple of Italians, and another friend has Japanese in-laws living in Japan, and they are all very friendly and complimentary of my home. So I'll grant that I haven't had the same experience as Sprig or SE, and that may influence my opinions in a different way.
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Ok, here's whats been ticking me off a little.
For the italian public this incident is tragic.
Italy is the third largest contributor of troops to Iraq, and has vigorously supported (at least its president has) being their with us. And were upset that their mad at us for killing one of their "favorite sons". I think a lot of the italian ire has to do with a certain cable car incident a few years back that the US washed its hand of. You know the one where the US pilot was flying too low and in the wrong place and he clipped a cable holding a cable car filled with a ton of italians in the italian alps. One we never apologized for.
So the journalist is biased, so what. So italy is mad, I dont blame them, a hero is dead. Would we be any less ticked than the italians if the roles had been reversed and our guy was shot by Italian troops on his way back from rescuing a hostage?
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We would absolutely be angry. There is a large difference between being pissed off and implying, with no evidence whatsoever, that we did it on purpose.
That's the rub.
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yeah, but I bet a lot of people would be saying that it was deliberate, in fact I can almost say without reservation that Anne Coulter, and Rush would be calling for Italian blood. I can bet a few senators and congressmen might even have said it was deliberate.
It doesnt mean that we should hate Italy, especially since we can all see that they are upset. Just because a few pundits are calling for blood doesnt make them right or even widely belived. Anyway I dont know maybe its just me or the limitations of the internet, but I see this thread going off in a racist direction and it makes me uncomfortable.
There are two facts that remain relevent to me in this case.
1. Italy has been a good ally contributing troops to help us during the war and to help us keep the peace.
Country No. of troops
United Kingdom 8,220
Italy 3,000
Poland 2,500
2. An Italian officer was killed and a civilian journalist injured, by friendly fire.
The facts beyond that are largely unknown and disputed.
Now Im not saying that our boys shot up the car because our government told them too, because they didnt. But they could have been jumpy, and pulled the trigger before they should have. Its a dagerous road (the road to the airport) and there have been a lot of bombings. There should have been better communicatioin between us and our allies. (and certainly a better escort)
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It needs to be clarified.
-Im not calling anyone here racist, just saying that I feel like the conversation is starting to go down that road.
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The difference is not just that they're saying we did it on purpose, but also that it is largely their own government's ineptitude that caused it in the first place.
I listened to an interview with one of the officers over the soldiers who actually pulled the trigger. There was no response to challenge, and the car tried to run the barricade. There is no way to find fault with the American soldiers in that situations. The Italian soldier who died should have had brain enough to know this was going to wind up the way it did.
This is beyond the territory of "accident." the soldiers responded EXACTLY as they should have. They were doing their duty, and the people who were shot at were, whether under orders to do so or not, doing a very dumb thing.
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-Im not calling anyone here racist, just saying that I feel like the conversation is starting to go down that road.
What? In what way?
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The failure of a driver to slow down becomes their governments ineptitude?
Our government has admitted that its possible that the italian driver did not see the hand signs. Which is reasonable considering that two guys in a car driving through an area thats extremely dangerous may be a little to distracted to pay full attention. And then of course there is the whole language thing.
The interview on the italian side says that there was no challenge, one minute they were driving and the next they were under fire. I realize that Its natural to take our side in a he said she said kind of thing like this, but it seems premature, especially since the army isn't taking our word for it and is investigating the matter. Actually I find it difficult t take anyones word in the matter because everyone has a powerful motivation to lie.
Hating italy for the whole thing is kind of stupid. I just wanted to say I disagree. Anyhow Im getting out of this conversation before it becomes a bash anyone who doesnt agree with us one. Mainly to keep Saint and I from arguing more. Im just going to agree to disagree.
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Well, I for one took the whole "hate Italy" thing to be a tongue in cheek way to introduce a rant about people making silly yet harmful accusations against our country and countrymen.
I don't actually hate all Italians. Surely you don't think anyone in this conversation does?
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I dont think they do hate Italy 100%, but there is a lot of real venom there as well, which is why I think its starting to go down the racist path. Tongue and cheek is fine, but this hasnt been real tongue and cheek, its been a bunch of facts used to show why italy is wrong and stupid. At the best thats jingoism and the worst its the beginnings of racism. I dont know frankly which it is, but it makes me uncomfortable even though I know that I've certainly been guilty of it myself in the past. Recently Ive had some experiences that make me doubt the opinions I had. Im disturbed by the generalizations made in the I hate France thread. Im not trying to preach about the last part, just trying to explain how I feel.
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The failure of a driver to slow down becomes their governments ineptitude?
No, the government for any instant believing it's a good idea not to tell the guys with the guns who are known to be guarding a region of territory and who will obviously be immediately suspicious of any or all strange activity, esp activity that they are not given prior information about. THAT is ineptitude. And that's what I've said is idiotic and inept since my first post. The fact that the Italian government thought it would be safer to send them in without anyone's prior knowledge, just shows their inherant nationalistic mistrust of us. Another symptom that leads me to think the general sentiment in Italy is not just one of tragedy over the loss of a soldier, but anti-American sentiment not based in anything rational. I can ALMOST understand not telling an ally that you are negotiating with your common enemy (I say "almost" because the US is, de facto, leading the coalition over there, and it's just impolite and nigh conspiratorial to do such a thing). But I can *never* understand a government refusing to communicate with its allies about planned civilian movement, at night, through a secure area. How is any of that anything BUT inept?
Hating italy for the whole thing is kind of stupid. I just wanted to say I disagree. Anyhow Im getting out of this conversation before it becomes a bash anyone who doesnt agree with us one. Mainly to keep Saint and I from arguing more. Im just going to agree to disagree.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I always seem to think that, especially when I make the statement in the context of a joke, that such obviously absurd and blanket statement will be taken as at least a little farcical. I thought you knew me well enough to know that I don't really hate all Italians, Jeffe. I'm kind of disappointed that you thought I really do.
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its been a bunch of facts used to show why italy is wrong and stupid. At the best thats jingoism and the worst its the beginnings of racism.
So pointing out that someone has had a major lapse of judgement certainly demonstrating unfitness to be running operations like this is racism? Sorry, no. That dog won't hunt. I'm just calling it like I see it. I think it's likely, from your last post, that you are projecting your feelings of recent personal experience on to the intentions of other posters.
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check your PM's
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checked,responded. Thanks.
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Oh, now that's unfair.
NO WHISPERING!
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The "one reason to hate italy" is a joke off EOUL's "one reason to love france" thread...
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It's not like the italians don't have a history of silliness. They have been pulling silly buggers in the EU for a long time now, with a series of moronic and corrupt governments. I know my dads transport company refuses to work in italy because it doesn't want to deal with bribing all the officials.
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keep in mind that
Each nation has it's own intrests
For 1 nation to climb, another must decend
Currently the US is at the top of the Geopolitical ladder in respect to economics and Might.
Therefore, any nation that wants to get to the top has to displace the USA
Thus I am not supprised that many of the upper echelon nations have taken the current global instablity to help better their own situation at the expense of the USA.
From a completly Machivellian standpoint, I could easily see the Italian Government setting the US up for a fall by not communicating this event. This would allow the global community to give the US another black eye in the aftermath and possibly isolate it from more of it's allies.
Keep in mind that this therory is entirely speculation and based upon an unporoven assumption that National leaders are only concerned with their own nation's advancement.
That said, I have found that many of the comments and criticisms from Europian posters on the internet tend to believe, as an article of faith, that GW Bush's motivations are just as, if not more selfish than the motives I have pointed out above. The concept that GW is an Idealist in the cause of liberty is laughed off as Jingoist fantasy when it is just political optomism.
So, yes, there is tension. In the US, it feels like we are the ones trying to fix the world's problems, while Europe sits back with a "you will fail so don't try attitude"
I am guessing that in Europe (from other statements I have read) It feels like Europians are respecting other nation's privacy while the US keeps barging in and barking orders.
As to where I stand... Well, I believe in what we are doing and I think that evidence that it is working in currentl displayed with the possible pull-out of Syria from Lebanon.
I think Bush applied preasure at the correct point to effect a series of events that will lead to the mid-east equivelant of the fall of the Berlin wall.
But I would be classified as an Idealist and Optomist.
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I'll classify myself as an idealistic pessimist who wishes he could be an optimist.
I think it ridiculous to believe that Bush is something like a Hitler. I don't believe he's trying to take over the world and run everything.
But I also don't believe that this is going to kick off a series of events that frees a series of nations either.
Just my two bits. Only watching will show which of us is right on this one.
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On another topic...
today china's ruling party voted overwhelmingly to use military force if Taiwan fails to roll over and renounce its independance. Watch Europe fail to say anything.
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no, they authorized the potential use of force if Taiwan ever officially declares it's independence. There is a vast difference there. it means they have not authorized force if Taiwan does nothing.
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like it has done for 50 years...
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http://www.defenddemocracy.org/in_the_media/in_the_media_show.htm?doc_id=266905&attrib_id=7378
it is hard not to be an optomist
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Wow. That's very impressive.
I haven't been paying too much attention to the news--I heard ahead of time that rally was planned, but didn't catch the result of it.
Very cool.
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Yeah, I'll officially look at that as a good thing. Hopefully it will come to real change. I guess all eyes are on it to see.
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I wonder why the mainstream media failed to catch that...
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? It was well covered on the FOX web page.
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Ah... see, I only read CNN and MSNBC. Maybe it was there, but it wasn't a headline.
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The really amazing thing is that Lebenon is a nation of 3,777,000. And over 1,000,000 showed up
That is over 1/4 of the nation's population showing up at a freedom rally
That is an amazing sign
To give a comparrison
That would be the equivelant of a rally in the USA with 120,000,000 to 150,000,000 people showing up
Can you ever think of a time where 150 Million Americans felt strongly enough about an issue to show up at a protest/rally?
Oh and I am sure that some people are thinking about that pro-Syria rally in Lebanon last week.
Here is a fun fact
in that pro-Syrian Rally was 1/3 of the work force of........
Syria!!!
Thats right. The Syrian Government and pro Government organisations bussed their own people into Lebanon to stage an anti-freedom rally
That seems an awfully desperate measure, I think we know why now.
Syria has an American Military, that has demonstrated that it will not be halted by beurocratic smokescreens in the UN, sitting at it's back door. It has 1/4 of the population of Lebanon VOCALY demonstrating against them on the other side. And it has it's own opressed people inside it's own boarders looking to the government to see if it is as strong as they thought. If it's not, maybe the people of Syria are thinking that, Syrians can have elections and freedom too.
Afghanastan gets Democracy
That is just a single point of light
Iraq gets Democracy DESPITE the efforts of thugs and murders
That draws a line of light between 2 points across the Middle East
Now if Lebanon gets freedom... That gives a 3rd point... enough for a shape, the shape is the new wave of freedom across the middle east.
Democracy will bring prosperity
Prosperity will make the people happy
happy, prosperous people dont blow themselves up in suicide bombings.
Much of the Anti-American/Anti-Isriel sentiment in the region is a political tool of the corrupt regiems to focus the misery of the people away from the cause of that misery.
It allows the rulers to opress and steal from thier own people and say, "You suffer not because of me, but because of Isriel and America"
It is the toung of Sauroman, in the mouth of the Prince, King, Caliph and Dictator in the region
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by the way, I think China should shut up and let Taiwan do whatever they feel like...of course, if the Nationalists had just declared Taiwan an independent country from the start instead of insisting they were the legitimate government of China for decades they wouldn't be in this mess now...
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No, they would have been in the mess that Tibet is in. Lets not forget that the chinese government is not exactly 'nice'.
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yeah, I think if They had announced they were independent they would have had more pressure.
Besides, last I heard polls indicate that Taiwan citizens don't WANT to be independent. They want to be part of China, just not the communist governmnet of China.
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I heard that they're close to evenly divided on the issue, but I'm too lazy to look up numbers. At any rate there are a good number who want independence very strongly.
Of course, a lot of the ones who really hate communist China have moved to other places like the US or Australia...
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Interestingly enough, on the CIA world factbook Taiwan is listed at the very bottom, out of alphabetical order. And for a country with 22 million inhabitants, to have 'due to its international status' listed as a reason for it's lack of embassies and so on is very strange.