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Messages - The Jade Knight

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2431
Books / Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« on: March 24, 2005, 12:14:06 AM »
Yay, one sympathizer!

Regarding Jordan names:

Yeah, a lot of language-related things bug me that few other people seem to notice.

How many people were irritated by Goodkinds names?  How many were annoyed by the linguistic inconsistencies in Jordans treatment of dialect and language?

I'm a hardcore conlanger.  Comes with the territory, I suppose.

I'm not planning on using Norse names as much as I can avoid them except where they've already been Tolkienized.  I may use Middle English words so long as they are not mere respellings of Tolkien names.  For example, I might be okay with referring to Elves as simply "the Fae" or some such in context.

I may have to keep them out of my first novel to keep the editors around, though.  What do you all think?

2432
Books / Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« on: March 23, 2005, 05:10:07 PM »
I actually disagree, personally.

I think it would have been better to see orcs.  I see nothing inherently redeeming about Trollocs, especially not their name.


There was an element of my world, the Telyar, Druidism, etc., that I was originally planning on generally ignoring.

However, in order to cater to the "need" for something different, basing "forces" along Telyar-divided lines might make for something rather interesting.  Instead of using more traditional enemies, like I had planned, I can focus more on shadow and darkness (one of the Telyar, the Artificer, is sort of a Lord of Shadow, but in a very different way than in the Jordanian style).  Always lots of room to play there.  Unfortunately, to me, that smacks of too many other worlds.  I don't know.  I might be able to come up with something creative.

2433
Rants and Stuff / Re: Open Wireless
« on: March 23, 2005, 04:51:21 PM »
I've got wireless, and I set an encryption key.  Anyone who knows the key (which is like 12 figures long and in hex) can log in.  I can't well remember it myself.  I always have to plug into the router and look it up.

My router and card are both Linksys, though.  I guess that helps?

2434
Books / Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« on: March 23, 2005, 12:41:56 AM »
Nope, not really.

It isn't so much about "who I am".  If you said it was about "what I like" you'd be closer to the mark.

And the only good reason NOT to write Tolkienesque Fantasy I've heard is that it doesn't sell.  Don't give me any of that blarney about originality.  I don't feel a burning need to be more original than Tolkien, who borrowed extensively from Norse, English (/Anglo-Saxon) and Celtic lore.  Ultimately, THE reason to avoid Tolkienesque Fantasy is because the editors wont bother with you if you do.  That's what I've taken away from this discussion, at any rate.

In fact, because of this discussion, I'm thinking that my novels, at least initially, will have to take place in the human nations of the world, and will generally have to ignore the large Fay portion.  The world is big enough to not HAVE to include the Elves in any stories I should need to write.  And I could just as easily leave out Orcs or any other more traditional "bad guy", though I'm still not entirely sure I want to.  Leave off Orcs, maybe.

Would editors have just as big of a problem with me if I used trolls or ogres?


My policy is that, if you're looking for something to fit a world-building "gap", for example, you've come up with a creature or race or something, that you want to have look and act a certain way to fill a certain world-"niche", see if there's already one out there in the [public domain] that you can use.  If there's already one that fits perfectly, use it.  If not, invent your own.

This is why we [I confess - "my" world is actually a group effort]  have some standard races, and then others which are very different, such as the "K'Sharr".

But I guess the default in the Fantasy world today is that there's something wrong with using the Fay and Dragons and the ilk.  We've heard those words too often, so we'd prefer it if people invented things that served the same function and were named differently.


While I'm at it:

What is it with Fantasy and prophecies?  Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, Darksword . . . it seems that practically (if not actually) a majority of Fantasy novels deal with prophecies.  Why?  I find the whole prophecy shindig getting older than Elves or Orcs.

...or has this topic already been discussed?

2435
Everything Else / Re: Cool Stuff found on the Internet V
« on: March 23, 2005, 12:24:55 AM »
Discoverer, for me.

(http://www.cmi-lmi.com/discover.html)

And here I'm the one arguing about reusing Elves.  Heh.

2436
Books / Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« on: March 22, 2005, 05:09:09 PM »
1.  You mean individual v. tribe?  I'm actually reminded of the Elfquest novels I've read. . .

2.  I understand.  I think it's too bad, though.  Not that that changes anything.

2437
Music / Re: another mix
« on: March 22, 2005, 05:05:37 PM »
I'd recommend "Flaming June" by BT if you're into Trance for June.

For March, you could go with a "March" song (Like Enya's "March of the Celts"), unless you really need a song that refers to the month.

2438
Role-Playing Games / Re: The Nerdery #17
« on: March 22, 2005, 04:59:17 PM »
One GM of mine always reserved a portion of XP for herself to toy with our characters as she pleased.

For the other characters, this worked in an "I gained a level in what" way.  For my character, this worked in an Amnesia way (but my character was unaware of the Amnesia.  It was trippy)

I thought, overally, it was very fulfilling to have this happen.  Loads of fun.  Even if it did screw with our character conceps a bit.

2439
Writing Group / Re: Ruined World
« on: March 22, 2005, 04:02:51 PM »
I'll go ahead and send it in when I'm back in the States, then.  I don't think it's worth the postage right now.

I expect that it's good enough for TLE, from the Fantasy I've read that we've put in there.  But I could always be wrong.  If nothing else, the reviews would be much appreciated.  Particularly if any of them are on par with EUOL's.

Speaking of, I never sent you the final version, EUOL.  Would you like it?  I took some (but not all) of your advice.  And I completely rewrote the ending.  And I like to think the story is much better now.

2440
Books / Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« on: March 22, 2005, 03:36:35 PM »
[post 3 of 3]


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In a fantasy world, different races/species would likely have as much variety as we do in our single species, in the real world.  You never even see that implied in most speculative fiction.


True.  I've five(ish, not including the "Wild Elves") races of Elves, with different attitudes towards life, different ways of living, different languages (to an extent), etc.

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It woudn't really be Tolkienesque if the dwarves are only ever mentioned as short-reclusive-little-money-grubbers that live way over there and have very little to do with us, if at all.  And there are some elves who think the whole fascination with music and dancing and "light" is effete and stupid.

Now, if all the stories you want to write in your world are about heroic strongmen dwarves who make unlikely friendships with elves who are really good with a bow, then you're in trouble.


According to you, my world wouldn't be Tolkienesque, even though my Elves are tall, agile guys with pointy ears who live a long time and are usually good in nature(if anyone's curious, Talyon's Quest is about an Elven Necromancer - who's still generally a good guy).

The thing is, I don't want to write ANY stories in my world about heroic strongmen Dwarves making friendships with bow-skilled Elves.  That's just it - my world may be similar in SOME respects, but I'm trying to develop stories that are going to break away from the Epic High Fantasy mold a little.

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while I realize you're only disagreeing with implications, I would still choose to phrase it EUOL's way, had I made the point originally. The problem with "pet worlds" is that they're pets. YOu want to tell everyone about them, and it's very difficult NOT to info-dump or add too much world building into the narrative. In fact, it's often difficult to realize that you're even committing that sin.


I'd love to have you read Talyon's Quest and see if you think I info-dump.  I'm a strong believer that the deeper the world, the better, and that a writer with some self-control can stop himself from dumping too much on the reader.


But your points are well-taken, and I appreciate them.  Particularly the bed-analogy, EUOL.


But I find it strange that we should tire of Elves when we refuse to tire of Wizards and Dragons, wot.   Maybe I'm just too old-fashioned for my own good.

2441
Books / Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« on: March 22, 2005, 03:34:48 PM »
[post 2 of 3]

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Where did orcs come from?  I know of no mythological foundation for them.  Also, Tolkien's elves.  They're very different from fae folk I've read of in lore.  He did create quite a bit, and the rest he changed.


"Orc" is the Old English word for "demon", and Tolkien's Orcs were essentially demons taken and solidified into a tangible race.  Granted, it wasn't a pure borrowing, but there's definitely a foundation for them.  Even more so for Elves.  They're hardly different at all from the Fae I've read in some Middle English stories (I'm a sucker for ME stories, I'll admit).  I mean, how terribly different are the Fay in Sir Orfeo (or some of the Mabinogion, for that matter) than Tolkien's Elves?

Within LotR (or perhaps in the Silmarillion, I forget), Tolkien talks about how with every passing age, the Elves fade and grow smaller.  In the Middle English tales I've read, the Fay are tall and majestic, not the little dinky Santa-style Elves they were considered to be in contemporary England.

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The difference between him and you is that he did it first.  I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.  Because Tolkien did it, and because he had such an effect on the market, anyone who uses 'elf' in a fantasy book has to react against what Tolkien wrote.


I wont disagree.  But no one raised in Western culture can effectively do the same thing Tolkien did again.

I'm not going to address the whole YA thing.  My point wasn't about those specific books though.  My point was that there is a rich tradition of "borrowing", and a huge portion of the best-known books/worlds (Tolkien is certainly NOT exempted) are based on borrowed lore.

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If you're using Tolkien as a primary source instead, I think that you're kind of making a copy of a copy, which weakens the piece intrinsically.


Rather, I've looked at his primary sources, and I've decided I rather like a few of his interpretations of them, so I'm using the same interpretations as him, in some areas.  Definitely not in all.  But this is why I really like using "his races".  I've read a lot of Middle English narratives, and I rather like the Elves in them, which are, more or less, the same as Tolkien's Elves (Dwarves are a more Norse element, but I could ignore them in my world without any real problem.  The Elves, on the other hand . . .)

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Because that's one of the reasons people READ fantasy.  To get something different!  If it's the same as Tolkien, then why read your book?  I'll go read Tolkien!  Or one of the people who ripped him off with style, like Tad Williams or Stephen Donaldson.


I do not read Fantasy to "get something different" [than what I've already read, which is what you're implying].  I never have.  I read it because it calls to me (sehnsucht).  I like magic, and dragons, and those sorts of things.  The whole "bigger than life" aspect.  I want something different from the life I live.

And it obviously wouldn't be the same as Tolkien.  Even if the worlds were identical (which they are very far from), my stories and way of telling them are different from Tolkien's!  Tolkien was a brilliant scholar and a master world-builder, but I've read better writers.  The only similarities are that there are elements of the world (such as Elves and Dwarves) that are very Tolkienesque.

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I got a very "I like Tolkien" vibe from Jordan as well. As for Trollocs being "described very different," if you describe a portly short fellow with a humongous nose, but he's still without peer on the longbow and has a connection to the natural world and inhuman capabilities, he's still an elf, even though he looks different. Trollocs may look different, but from what I read, they're essentially orcs dressed differently.


I agree about Trollocs (consider them Trolls, not Orcs. but it doesn't really matter).  But I still don't consider Jordan very Tolkienesque.

Ironically, it bothers me more that he didn't call them Orcs than how similar Trollocs are to Orcs.

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Fantasy is more escapist than many others. You want to be pulled much further away from your own reality.


I don't think I want to be pulled further away, so much as I want to be pulled a certain direction (magic, knights, dragons, the ilk).  I don't really consider reading Fantasy as the same as taking drugs, but whatever.  So does all this make me an atypical Fantasy reader?

2442
Books / Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« on: March 22, 2005, 02:16:14 PM »
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Yeah just don't copy paste, in general, and that will solve the problem.


Actually, I didn't cut and paste.  It doesn't like full ANSI, I've decided.

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I see myself in a little bit of a position to give advice on this matter.  Don't take anything I say too harshly--I'm partially just playing devil's advocate here.


I understand.  And I have complete respect for you and Saint E's experience and knowledge in the area.  I want to tease the issue out a little bit further than just leaving it at this, though.

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Your take on Tolkienesque fantasy will not be original, and it will not sell.  You've spent years working on a world.  Good job.  Write a book (one) in that world, and do it quickly, then move on.


I think I can understand where you're coming from on this, but I think you're getting caught up in the definition of the matter.  It's not as much you don't think my take will be original, as you think that the mere fact that it's Tolkienesque Fantasy will make it unoriginal.

This certainly appears to be an opinion you don't share alone, however.

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Almost everyone who wants to break into this genre has a pet world they've been working on since they were fourteen.  The problem with these worlds is twofold.  First, it will be TOO big.  You'll have too much you want to show--and because of that, your narrative will get laden down with your worldbuilding and the whole thing will sink.  Secondly, you are putting all your eggs in one basket.  If this world isn't good enough to catch an editor's eye, you won't get published, no matter how many books you write in it.


Well, there's no denying the second point.  I'm considering writing some comtemporary fiction, would consider historical fiction when I feel I've a good enough grasp on any period to put it in, and modern mixed fantasy (I'm not sure what you call this genre.  Dark is Rising could be considered to fall into it).  But at this point, I'm okay with having only one Fantasy world.

Regarding the first point, that's a matter of discretion, not something automatic.  Now, you read over Talyon's Quest, and while there was a lot of work that needed to be done on the story (which you pointed out, and I appreciated), you never once complained of "world-overload".  Now, I could pass it around and see what people think, but I don't think that's going to be a problem with my stories.

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I think that if you force yourself to write consistently in new worlds, you will get better at writing much more quickly.  You will force yourself to be more original so that you don't repeat yourself, and you will get practice starting new plots, worlds, and characters from scratch.


Mayhaps.  But shallow world-building always bothers me in writing.  And it is enough work to create one depth-filled world.  I am not in a habit of reusing characters much to begin with, and in the little writing I've done I don't recirculate plots at all, and I'm not planning on starting.  Shifting worlds constantly wont chang that.

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I guess the short answer to your question is: Yes, writing a book with elves and dwarves will seriously hamper your ability to get published.  People are tired of reading those stories (no matter how clever your take on them) and editors are tired of reading them.  

You want to think yourself an exception?  Well, I truly wish you good luck.  Exceptions get published all the time.  However, why start yourself out of the gate so far behind everyone else?


Why?  Two reasons:  One - fidelity to self.  I am quite happy with my little world.  Completely revamping the whole thing just to get published smells a little of literary whoring to me.  I'm not so far disillusioned yet that I'm willing to take that step.

Two - I'm content with waiting until my story-building talents have reached a much greater level to jump into the market.  It's plot I struggle with most right now, not world-building.  If I feel I've mastered plot and need to shift my focus again, I'll maybe reconsider.

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(By the way--most current fantasy I read has very few, if any, non-human races.  Also, remember that Robert Jordan--the last big Tolkienesque writer--started fifteen years ago.  The genre has changed a lot since that day, even though he has enough momentum to keep selling large numbers.)


I also don't consider Jordan Tolkienesque, but that's a matter of opinion, I'm sure.

I'll touch on non-human races more later.

[Another post to follow]

2443
Books / Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« on: March 20, 2005, 09:32:42 PM »
That begs the question of why.

Granted, Fantasy is Fantasy—Speculative Fiction.  It's supposed to be "different", right?  But does that mean reinventing the wheel?  Tolkien didn't.  Jordan certainly didn't.  It sounds like Eragon didn't.  We all know Harry Potter didn't.

In fact, even classics like Sir Orfeo and Gawain and the ilk were just continuations of a rich tradition of "embellishing" what we have.  Some Fantasy, granted, was quite imaginative.  And Tolkien took the Medieval "stereotype" to a whole new level.

But why does it have to be different for the mere sake of being different?

I like to think I'm taking a rich tradition, choosing elements I find personally pleasing or meaningful in some way or other, changing them as I perceive they ought to be, and adding my own material.

Yes, there will be new races and monsters and creatures.  But why must the old also be precluded?

Do we read Fantasy merely because we never want to see the same race or monster twice, or is there a greater sehnsucht (as Lewis called it) that just makes us want to see magic in the world?


I concede, of course, that if the market is dead-set against any further Tolkienesque Fantasty, I'm going to be in trouble trying to get published in my own setting (as it stands).  But, if it's that way, then why?  And if it isn't that way, why are we acting like it should be?


[Out of curiosity, does the full dash above appear correctly for anyone?  I'm wondering if my computer is just having formatting problems or if the forum doesn't support full ANSI]

2444
Rants and Stuff / Re: Today is a good day
« on: March 20, 2005, 04:52:23 PM »
I still haven't managed to convince my girlfriend to watch Star Wars with me.  She's made it a life goal to never watch Star Wars.

*sigh*

2445
Music / Re: XM Radio
« on: March 20, 2005, 04:49:38 PM »
XM Radio doesn't really appeal to me as I can listen to just about anything I'd want on Winamp (perhaps thousands of audio streams, all free).

If I go somewhere and I want music, I bring my mp3 player.  My music collection is large enough to be able to keep me entertained.

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