Author Topic: Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor  (Read 2051 times)

Recovering_Cynic

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Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor
« on: August 16, 2009, 10:04:24 PM »
Be harsh.  Take no prisoners.  Burn then pillage.  You get the idea.
this is the way the world ends,
not with a bang, but a whimper
~T.S. Eliot

RavenstarRHJF

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Re: Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2009, 02:07:54 AM »
Ok, first of all- awesome story!  I was hooked from the very beginning, which is always a good sign.  Just a few minor things to completely polish it up:

Alberto Lopes-  I know it's supposed to be Lo-pes, but I still read it as lOpes as in, "the wolf lopes through the forest."  But change the "s" to a "z" and you won't have that problem anymore.  Like I said- extremely trivial, but still. ::)

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Alberto Lopes, sitting to Jason’s right, groaned and rolled his eyes, but Chief Jane Blackman, their squad leader, ignored this.  Jane knew...
You seem to change to Jane's POV here, but as I read on, it's clear that you didn't.  I'd recommend changing it to "their squad leader, Chief Jane Blackman" and leaving off Jane's name at the beginning of the next sentence.

Quote
As he entered Bay C...
You need to tighten up the prose in this whole paragraph, and really throughout the whole thing.  Change the order you say things, and combine ideas- pretend you're paying (not being paid!) fifty dollars per word.  Also, + 5 points for the name of the stuff. ;D

Again, instead of taking the time to say that Alberto spat and Jason dodged it, why not just say that Jason narrowly avoided the spitball aimed at the ironic safety sign as he entered?  Also, great opportunity to let us know if the sign is already covered in loogies... >:D

Technical bit that I didn't quite understand.  Is moronium flexible?  I'm asking because of the inflatable buoys- also coated with the stuff.  Given it's high mirror gloss effect, it seems unlikely.

Wouldn't it be more efficient for Mendes and Lopes to divide up the subs equally for the checks?  Or does it require two people per pod- and if so, why only one person when the group gets underway?

Need more/better description of what exactly happens with the launching of the subs.  You talk about spheres... is that kinda like a lock on a river...? Or something completely different?

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Jane was always polite, which is what annoyed him.  She never showed any emotion, and her orders and rebukes came in the same proper tones.  Her politeness elevated her above everyone else, which is part of why Jason always thought of her as Jane and not Chief Blackman.  It made her human again, at least in his head it did.
It annoys him, but it makes her more human? ???  The way you say it here there's a conflict of emotion.

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After attaching two tug lines to Jane's pod...
  How did they manage that?  Extendible moronium covered robotic arms?  Seems unlikely.  And stupid, considering the environment.  Indestructible covering or not, they'd be awfully flimsy.

Before we know that they're worms, you use the words "cylinder" and "tube" a lot, both of which have precise geometrical shapes.  Are these worms tapered at all, or are the ends cut off like a the cylinder?  More description needed.

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Jason’s pod was jerked out of the water like a fish on the end of a line and flung to the far side of the platform. ...He started the sub limping its way towards the platform...
The first sentence sounds like the sub hit the platform itself.  If it went past it, you need to say that.

Finally, how exactly does Jason get survive to get into one of his buoys?  I thought they were simply attached to the side of the sub, not an integrated part of the sub itself- which would require a brief interval outside of protection to transfer.  But at that temp...  and he was still inside the airlock when the worms attacked...:-\

Overall, really good!  Aside from using too many words in places, it was well done.  With a bit more polishing, I'd say it was definitely up for a test submission.
A crown does not a King make, nor the lack of one a commoner.

Recovering_Cynic

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Re: Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2009, 02:43:50 AM »
Thank you!  I'll take to heart all of your advice, and consider the changes made already. 

I do have some follow up questions, though.  Just, in general, was it a satisfying read (please be blunt with me on this).  I've re-written this story multiple times, and this re-write, I completely changed the ending and the direction the story was going.  So here is my question: I'm not asking whether it is well written, but rather, I'm asking whether you liked it.  Say on a scale of 1 to 10--and be honest please.  Should the story plot continue the way it is, or does it need a direction change?

Is Jason's character flawed enough (or right enough--I don't know how to explain it, but hopefully you'll get what I mean) to deserve the ending he gets?  More mercy?  More character flaws?  Meaner, nicer, more cowardly?

The persuader chip was an addition to this version, did it work?

Is the ending telegraphed enough? 

Are the plot twists cliche?  Predictable?

Do the other character's need more spotlight?

Does Jason's character make sense?  Can you see someone acting the way he does?

Alright, so that was a lot more than one question, but those are my current concerns.  Any feedback (from anyone, not just Ravenstar) would be appreciated.

Thanks for reading it and the great feedback!
this is the way the world ends,
not with a bang, but a whimper
~T.S. Eliot

RavenstarRHJF

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Re: Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2009, 03:22:23 AM »
I like it very much.  Definitely an 8, possibly a 9.  I do see what you mean about being mean to your main characters though. ;)

As for Jason's character- I think you pegged it pretty good.  You could maybe play up the disparity between his cowardice and the job he's doing, but as it is, the persuader chip makes sense when it's revealed, and there's a very satisfying 'A-ha!' moment when that happens.

I don't quite see why he's so vital to the operation, though.  Is it just because he helped design the subs?  Why not get someone else from the same team with a little more gumption?

Giving other characters more face-time... I don't think you need to.  I think you started to... and then stopped halfway through (might be leftovers from previous versions).  This is Jason's story, and he needs to be the focus- especially for how short it is.

As for the ending... the first time I read it (first impression) it seemed a bit at odds with the intro.  In the intro he seems more concerned about the loss of life than the bottom line, whereas at the end that's pretty much all he's thinking about.  But when I went back and reread it, I could pick up the little clues.  So maybe emphasize those more, but otherwise...

Like I said, as it stands it just needs a bit more polishing to be a very good submission candidate- at least in my opinion.  But keep in mind that I have never submitted anything myself! (being new to writing and not having anything really complete enough)
A crown does not a King make, nor the lack of one a commoner.

Silk

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Re: Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2009, 11:23:43 PM »
One verbal tick of yours that I've noticed is the use of transitional phrases, "he thought about Alberto's question", "his thoughts returned to the day he signed up", etcetera where they're not really needed.

While my first thought was "ooh cool, we get to see Jason fix the submarines!" I'm not actually too sure about the submarine scene. It doesn't really do all that much, and it runs rather long. The Jason-Alberto characterization is good, but you don't need to give us that much of it for us to get the picture.

The same is even more true of Jason's introspection here. We already know that he's having doubts about why he came on the trip etc, or at least it's strongly implied before this point. It's fine that he thinks about it again here, but again, you don't need to spend nearly so much time on it.

One thing I liked about the submarine scene, though, was the oxygen-breathing thing, which I thought was well-portrayed. It's hardly essential, but I'd be curious to see how Alberto dealt with it.

New scene, bottom of page ten, it's talking about the seventh sphere and the eighth shell and so on and even though you sound like you know what you're talking about, I haven't the faintest clue what's going on. 

Later in this scene, you say "Jason was almost hysterical by this point". In the scene just previous to this one you described the physical symptoms of a panic attack--much more effective. Show don't tell and all that kind of crap.

Um, I find it a little surprising that these submarines come with DVD capabilities. Also, two hours makes for a rather long watch-the-buds-get-drunk video.

Considering the way Jason's been feeling up to that point, why doesn't he instantly feel afraid when Jane starts shouting at him?

I could buy it once he takes a look at the problem and realize that it's something he can deal with, though. In fact, it's nice to see him a little bit at hone.

This moronium tube that's supposedly moved. Is it moronium on Jane's sub? I'm confused.

"Soup’s scream didn’t reach Jason’s com unit until Soup had been dead for several seconds." Um, I'd imagine that a com unit that had a delay that long could be REALLY problematic. Which is fine, except why the heck haven't they fixed it?

I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around the blocking in this scene, I'm afraid. Now the worm is "swimming towards them". Them being Jason and Jane? So did only some of the group come back with Jane and now there are two different groups, one of which the worm's already taken out?

I thought Jason's reaction--to decide to ditch Jane and then the guilt that follows--was very well portrayed. On the other hand, the monster getting Jane's sub just before she can reveal the Deep Dark Secret just strikes me as way too easy, and a bit cliché. (I'd rather she just didn't say anything at all. Surely you can find a more effective way to foreshadow the revelation that all is not as it seems. That Jason doesn't even know what the mission is about is a good start. The hints that he's the victim of some sort of mind control technology (which yes, I twigged to long before the endd) are also a good start. There are probably other places you could sneak something in.) Also, what happened to that delay over the intercom?

The sinister mood change in the final scene is clear almost right from the beginning of the scene. Well done on that score.

I'm unclear as to what actually happened to Jason. One minute you're implying that he died, the next you're talking about de-briefing him and that "the fewer know of his survival the better" and the next you're suggesting that they might have just left him buried on Hades, and I think we should know whether he ends up dead or just a gibbering madman locked away in some governmental closet.

So. I mentioned the mood change at the end already. It's effective on its own, and I like it even more when compared to the first scene. But. About that first scene.

At first I assumed that Jason and Co. were out hunting for the survivors of whatever mess the first scene had talked about. (As I was probably supposed to.) By the time the worms attack, I'm thinking that perhaps the first scene happens after the main bulk of the story, that the mishap of Jason and the others is the mess they're trying to clean up after. But I'm not a hundred per cent certain of this. The more I think about it, the more this makes sense, but viscerally, I'm not sure about it. And maybe this is because...

I don't know whether the people in the first scene are the same people, or at least part of the same company, as the people in the last scene. This scenario makes the most sense to me, but It appears that those in the first scene are genuinely concerned for any potential survivors. Which is fine, good even on a first read, but if they are the bad guys, I want to go back on a second read and find hints that something's wrong. As far as I can tell, there are none.

These things aren't deal-breakers and can probably be cleared up fairly easily--without necessarily even being made explicit--but they do mean I'm having a little trouble placing that first scene. The more so because well, to be honest, I'm not entirely sure what this scene is doing for the story overall. At the moment, it seems to me that the first scene is just there to provide that contrast against the final scene. This can be a valid function, especially considering the shortness of this scene and the length of the overall story, but I just think a few things need to be cleaned up first. :)

Raven comments,"[Jane's politeness] annoys him, but it makes her more human? The way you say it here there's a conflict of emotion." I don't have a problem with that. That's how people work.

But yes, she's right, we do need more visuals of the worms.

Let's see. Your followup questions (I'm being pre-emptive here) :P

Despite my big long list of suggestions, overall, yes, I thought it was a satisfying read. And I think Jason's ending makes sense, as far as I know what happened to him; I don't think I'd have a problem with either option (dead vs gibbering madman) but I just want to know which it ended up being.

Unless you're asking whether or not Jason got what was coming to him and if you should be nicer/meaner to him according to his character. In which case, no, I think he got the short end of the stick, poor bugger. Does it matter? Not really. :P

The persuader chip... Well, when I first decided that some sort of mind control thing was what was going on (in the bedroom/panic attack scene, if you're wondering) I was a little bit sceptical. By the end of the story I didn't have a problem with it, though.

If by "telegraphed" you mean foreshadowed, it didn't come out of the blue. I think you could do a little more/

I won't say that this type of story and twist hasn't been done before. In your case, though, I honestly don't think it matters.

I don't really see a need to spotlight any of the other characters. And except for the places I pointed out above, I think Jason's character makes sense, yes.

And I agree with Raven, I think you need to give it a good tightening as well before you submit it. You've got a great start though.

In case you're wondering, I actually DO shut up eventually. Don't believe me? I don't blame you. But watch, I'll prove it!

Recovering_Cynic

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Re: Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2009, 05:38:17 AM »
Wow... Silk, thank you for the awesome feedback.  I just now got a chance to check the forums, but, unfortunately, my brain is mostly dead, so I will be responding to your post tomorrow.  All I can say is thank you for giving my story so much of your time.

Until tomorrow, when I become a thinking, coherent person again.
this is the way the world ends,
not with a bang, but a whimper
~T.S. Eliot

Frog

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Re: Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2009, 11:59:26 PM »
Well this might be a first for me because I read this through without writing anything down. Nope. Nothing at all. Good thing about that is that it means I didn't see any glaring typos or the like and I am still going to give you my impressions, such as they are. Firstly some things to keep in mind is that I don't read a lot of sci/fi and dislike purely unhappy endings. So these just might be my personal preferences talking, but  I hope you can find something useful from this anyway.

I felt there was an overall feeling of fluff to this piece. Some of this seemed to be a stylist choice (repetitiveness in narration and heavy use of transitions) which is fine, but it did slow the pacing down and I thought a few of the scenes could stand some cutting down and cleaning up.

While I had no reason to dislike our narrator, the use of the persuasive technology (which I thought was foreshadowed well) made him seem very passive. His POV seemed a long, drawn out complaint without the ability to even attempt to fight back and he dies (is left behind?) as a pathetic victim who's not even on screen when his fate is decided. Also, there didn't seem to be enough remorse or conflict within any of the 'rescuers' in a complete turn around from them opening scene as things go on, business as usual.

Occasionally you see stories where things seem to easy for the characters, but this one I felt went too far the opposite direction with no chance or attempt for redemption or escape. Jason and the others were doomed from the first. Which brings me to the scene with Jane that confused me. I understood that Jason was forced on this mission, but I didn't understand what would bring anyone else here well aware of the danger as she seemed to be by her final words and convenient death.And you may want to emphasize more of Jason's overall 'specialness' that would make the overseers willing to take such a risk in using forbidden tech to enlist him.

I did find a lot of the tech stuff interesting and liked the overall concept of this piece that did keep me interested through to the end. And as I didn't have a lot of nitpicky things to say, I can tell you that the quality of your writing is good as far as I'm concerned. I would just rather the playing field been a bit more even and the archs and meaning of the story show more growth and impact in the end, even if it all is in a regression, though I can understand that it is harder to do in a short story.

So long, and good work! :)
I've already conquered the world. This is exactly the way I want it.

Recovering_Cynic

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Re: Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2009, 03:29:52 PM »
Quote
While I had no reason to dislike our narrator . . . [h]is POV seemed a long, drawn out complaint without the ability to even attempt to fight back and he dies (is left behind?) as a pathetic victim who's not even on screen when his fate is decided. Also, there didn't seem to be enough remorse or conflict within any of the 'rescuers' in a complete turn around from them opening scene as things go on, business as usual.

Occasionally you see stories where things seem to easy for the characters, but this one I felt went too far the opposite direction with no chance or attempt for redemption or escape. Jason and the others were doomed from the first.

Oh, Frog, you pegged me fair and square.  I was an English major as an undergrad, and my favorite genre of literature was Naturalism (and I'm pretty sure I was taking a capstone class on it when I wrote this).  Naturalism, in many ways, is the opposite of high fantasy.  High fantasy has happy endings, the good guys win because they are noble, and they always help the little guy.  Naturalism hinges on the premise that the weak die, the strong survive, and if the strong help the weak, then they weaken themselves, and they too die.  Also, you see a lot in high fantasy that the natural world is a good, benevolent thing that wants the good guys to win.  By contrast, in naturalism, the natural world is at best indifferent, and at worst, it wants your blood.  All of it.

High fantasy readers and/or romantics call naturalism cynical, pessimistic, and morbid.  Naturalist call it realistic.  For example, if you put a group of people on a molten world with giant monsters and no hope of getting off the planet, what are the odds (really) of any of them surviving?  I wrote the story about the one in a billion person who did manage to survive, but the ironic part is (and yes, it is very black irony), the same person had been marked by his employer to never leave the planet anyway.

So yes, your assessment was quite accurate, and I am guilty as charged.  I just don't think I'm cut out for these happy ending things...
this is the way the world ends,
not with a bang, but a whimper
~T.S. Eliot

Frog

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Re: Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2009, 04:22:27 PM »
Your right. I would hate that kind of story and outlook. I wouldn't call it realistic either. I mean, if you were going to call complete indifference realistic and natural, I would say that the chances of their survival are just as good as an entire group being coned into going to a 'molten world with giant monsters with no hope of escape' with no more gain then money and then having everyone in the overseer group work without any morals or outside constraints they can't easily work around. Either outcome would be unrealistic to an indifferent universe, just in opposite directions.

Besides my own personal belief that people and the universe in general is inherently good, I would say the reason that 'right' and 'good' usually win out in the long run is that 'goodness' is based in principles and order which work and  lead to continued progression and prosperity while anarchy simply does not. The world would have been destroyed a long time ago if it had the ability to 'win' so I'd say it proves itself rather well. There is also the matter of self-fulfilled prophecy. (If I think something will work out, I will try everything to make it work out, so I stand a much better chance in succeeding) And if my beliefs are such that others can see benefits of it, they are more likely to support me for mutual gain. Even the 'weak' can be strong when placed inside a like-minded group, though I would also argue that there is no person so 'weak' that they can't be productive and beneficial, even essential, if they have the ability and initiative to put use their particular talents to their fullest .

See? Your story caused a discussion! You are well on your way to a genuine book burning and truly arriving!  ;D
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Silk

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Re: Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2009, 04:41:33 PM »
There doesn't have to be a happy ending.

Hmm. I didn't really feel anything that I don't think could be fixed by fixing the pacing, but... a playing field that appears more even may even up the tension. Or maybe not. Something to play around with, perhaps. *shrugs*

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Re: Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2009, 04:52:21 PM »
You, my froggie friend, are a romantic :) and there is nothing wrong with that.  However, the naturalist movement in literature happened as a backlash against romaticism.  They are opposite sides of the same coin.  Romanticism was too smarmy for many writers to accept, so they pushed back and went to the other extreme.  It would not exist without romanticism first.

Currently I espouse neither philosophy, either in my life or in my writing.  Five years ago when I made the first draft of this story, I was most decidedly in the naturalist camp.  As it is the only short story I currently have written that is even vaguely polished enough for Writers of the Future, I'm revamping it to submit it.

It no longer represents my viewpoint however.

I will admit that there is something fascinating and engaging about watching a doomed character.  It is morbid entertainment, but entertainment nonetheless.  However, I now feel that a dark story like this should only act as a foil, a device used to highlight other stories where some redemption occurs at least.  Naturalist stories are a dark mark on a reader's/writer's canvas to highlight the pretty colors that are everything else.

I have hesitated on my next project, in part because I am not sure how I want to proceed.  I want to write a story that is not pessimistic.  I actually prefer books that have some form of redemption, but as you stated, books that are too easy only serve to annoy, that is, unless they are very well done (some authors can pull it off, but usually they are writing for young adults or children).  So I am at a crossroads.  I want to write a book where the main character is flawed.  He has done things--and still does things--that would land him in the "evil villain" camp in most peoples worlds, but I also want the book to change him so that he finds some sort of redemption, a way back to a time of innocence that he has not experienced since he was a child.  That is not to say that he will live (I haven't decided that yet), but it is to say that his life needs to mean something, to not be a pitiful attempt at survival, a blip on the radar that fades without anyone really noticing.

My life perspective has changed, and so too has my writing style, although I can't really say that since I have not written anything for quite some time--I'm just now getting back into the swing of things.  In the time I've been away, I've discovered that the world is not black and white, but neither is it grey.  It is marbled, with streaks of white, grey, and black swirled together.  None are stronger than the other, although the white is happier generally, and the black, the real black, is rare.  However, the grey, for me at least, is much more interesting than either of the other extremes.

And that is what I am going to write about.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 04:54:53 PM by Recovering_Cynic »
this is the way the world ends,
not with a bang, but a whimper
~T.S. Eliot

Frog

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Re: Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2009, 04:01:01 PM »
You, my froggie friend, are a romantic :)
Yay me!

I suppose there are worse things to be, though I guess to me that brings to mind some brainless, boy-crazy girl sitting up in a tower just expecting good things to come to her because she wishes they would and that's not me at all. I just believe people can do a lot to create their own happiness in a process of acceptance and hard work. And I like talking to and motivating people, which is why I am in healthcare when I'm not writing and visa versa.

I also dislike that the cynics get the title 'naturalist,' because I don't see their fatalistic POV any more realistic than the romantics. So I shall continue to call them cynics and leave words like 'natural' or 'realistic' for something closer to the middle and use my default romantic tendencies to assume people will know what I am talking about. :P

I agree with a lot of what you were saying about your current philosophizes and love a good redemption story, fantasy or otherwise. Bring it on!

Oh, and I didn't mean to say that the ending of this story or any other you write had to be 'happy.' Just that I wanted to see some progressive (regressive?) archs and a more impactful, meaningful ending to help build the tension and give it a little more substance. Though really, if you are sick of looking at it, a little chopping would probably make it submit worthy already. I'm sure you're not alone in liking a doomed character be doomed in even if it is not my cup of tea. :P
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ErikHolmes

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Re: Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2009, 12:09:38 AM »
Awesome Story.

It was good enough that I made my family wait to start dinner until I was done reading it, amongst much complaining. Things like, 'We're hungry,' 'finish it later,' and 'I'm starving to death!'

If you can polish it up more, great. But as is I think its good enough to submit to Writers of the Future. And win.

There's three changes I'd like to see, if they can be worked in.

1. If Jason was important enough for them to risk implanting a illegal persuader I'd like to know why. Even if its two words or a sentence. "few people knew the working of the subs like I did," etc.

2. More detail about their trip swimming through the glass. One of the most appealing things about your story is the visuals it creates. A fiery orange planet, explorers in mirror-like subs, plunging into a hot crystal sea. It's pimp.

Give me just a little more. I want to know what he sees when he's under-'water'. Just a paragraph would be good.

3. Don't give them away. But give us a little more information on the worms. Throughout the story, he just calls them tubes. I think something so valuable, so important might warrant more then 'tubes'. If he's a researcher, I can't picture him not thinking about what they are. Stalagmite-type formation that grow on the surface of the planet. Some type of crystal formations, etc.

They need a cover story.

Having said all of that. The story still rocks. Good job man!
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westwriter

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Re: Aug. 17 - Recovering Cynic - Survivor
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2009, 10:02:07 PM »
I liked the story a lot.  I really can't add more than the previous readers posted.  If I could they wouldn't rip me a new one every time I submit. :-\

I do think I would have been more involved if I thought this guy had any shot at all, but that's just my preference. 

I give the overall story an solid 8.  Maybe 8.6

Good job.
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