Timewaster's Guide Archive
Games => Role-Playing Games => Topic started by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on October 26, 2004, 09:39:20 AM
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reference: http://www.timewastersguide.com/view.php?id=889
I really wish that Sprig hadn't asked for this, because *I* wanted it. Now that he's reviewed it, I'm sending my ninja monkeys to retrieve it for me. No one should stand in their way.
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My warjacks (http://www.ikwarmachine.com/miniatures/cryx_bg.html) are programed to protect my book, your monkeys are no match for the epidimy of magic and technology!
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Did he, I think he, did he mean epitimy?
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eek, what an ending. But it seems like this should be more of a 5 or 5.5. And the whole "magic makes technology go" thing, well, I found that to be a bit incredulous. It would seem it takes a great deal of effort on the builder's part to just build something like that. Why would it need magic to go if they have the technology? Is it just an added flare, or are there actual advantages to having magic in such technology?
I like maps too. Now I'm very wary of this setting, and settings in general. Not that the map thing gave me wary to not think about.
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I did think about it, and that was the nature of Sprig's comment at the end to the editors (deleted before publication). The only drawback I could think about at the end was the lack of map, which was an intentional drop out for this particularly volume. HOwever, you do spend some time criticizing the lack of tech without magic. Care to expound on that point?
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Because it was a personal prefrence, the system they worked out is very good, yet I would have perfered another. That dosen't mean it's any worse or better then the system they chose, nor is there any real flaw in their system. Yet it's worth noteing that mages, and their ilk, are still the only ones that can make usefull items.
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And I decided that takeing off for the map would be unfair because there are so many things done to perfection in the book, yet they didn't include a map becaue you can get one from other sources. Also the book dosen't spend many pages on locals, but how the world works.
I also had a problem keeping the review a review. I've been working on it for a few days now and it kept on comming out more of a infomercial then a cretique. Gemm you're welcome to disagree with me, I personaly don't agree with the other 2 perfect scores in the RPG section, these things are all subjective to the person's tastes and prefrences.
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Yes yes, but of course.
And I'm not criticizing tech without magic, I'm criticizing tech with magic. Why does there have to be magic involved with tech? Wouldn't at one point those who are helping create such things (I'm presumming they are such things like automated suits of armor, or even steam powered caravans or some such) wouldn't they learn from these people how to create their own without the aid of magic?
I guess I can ask the question, are our gas-powered engines then a product of magic being incorporated with the wheel?
In actuality I (personally, not beligerring anyone else) find that to have a need for magic in technology will aid in the destruction of some.
This has all just come off the top of my head. Don't heed the words too much.
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Well the reason they give is that it's just a different course of development then our world. They use the magic with the technology becaue they can and it makes things easier. Sure there are non-magical tech stuff, but it's harder to make and less efficent.
For example, the Jacks are constructs that are clockwork and steam powered, yet they use magic to make them intellegent and easy to control as well as better fighters. Yes they could make something like them that wasn't magic but it would have to be piloted or possible very crude prgramming would allow for some simple tasks to be assigned.
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Well, it's fantasy. Magic abounds.
They may learn another way to do it, but as they say, necessity is the mother of invention, unless there was a desparate need to find an alternate way, not many would work on it very hard. Assuming that their general level of tech is medieval or Renassance, it would take a very long time to reproduce a robot or a mechanized suit of armor (I mean heck, we're barely getting there and it's been hundreds and hundreds of years since Platemail was invented). I actually find it harder to believe that someone has reproduced the same effects in this given society than that no one has. In short, if the tech is driven by magic, there's no reason to thing that the non-magic tech is anywhere near keeping the pace, since it would, probably, be retarded by magitech.
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did he mean epitimy?
Epitome. Epitome.
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heh. Correcting poor spelling with more poor spelling makes you look funny.
/me points and laughs.
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since there seams to be some confusion on my original paragraph dealing with machaniks (that's the word for the hybrid tech) I'm changeing the paragraph to:
Technology is a hodge-podge of stem engines, clockworks, and magic. While there is technology that doesn’t rely on magic, mostly mundane and simpler versions of magic items, the vast majority of those presented in the book are a mingling of both. While this isn’t a bad thing, it is disappointing for those, such as myself, that were looking for a pure alternative to using magic. To be able to make many things adventurers would find useful you need to be a magic using class, so while the finished products are different the means of creating them are more or less the same. I don’t see much point in having a magic version of an item and a technology version if the only person who can make them are the same classes; however, adding the magic element to the tech does allow for easy balancing of the rules and explaining how Victorian age technology can equal magic. That being said there are means, though not as powerful or easy to make, to make pure mechaincal equivalant of some items. Instead of makeing a magical flame thrower (ie wand of burning hands) one could make a flame thrower, though it would do less damage and require a lot of fule to power.
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Ok, well blah to you SE. =P
I liked your post about the jacks. That helps explain it a bit better. Yes, I understand it's more of a simplification of things. I guess I'm just coming at it from the standpoint of taking the setting and using it. IE (that is) using the setting and then adding certain plot elements to it. EG a powerful ruler is trying to rid the world of magic so as to stop the advancement of technology.
I'm sure the book rocks and everything. I just want to have some things layed out before I go about looking for it.
Epitimy.
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So I want to know what you all think of the review itself, normaly I don't care that much, but sence I spent so much time on it I've been thinking about it. I realy don't think the reveiw is as good as it should have been even though I spent more time on it then any of the reviews/articles I've done in the past year. I don't think it's a bad reveiw, yet I still feel that something just didn't come off right.
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Yeah, wells, ya pays ya nickel, and ya takes ya chances.
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It still feels a bit like an ad. There didn't feel to be enough critique, I think.
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It still feels a bit like an ad. There didn't feel to be enough critique, I think.
It was a lot worse before, problem with giveing something a perfect score, to me anywase, is that if you critique too much then it dosen't deserve a perfect score.
I listed the 2 things I didn't like in the reveiw, there realy wasn't anything else that I had problems with, and neither of them were worth lowering the score to me since all the other stuff was so well done.
That being said, I had a real problem with fully explaineing my views with this review. I think it's because I spent so much time thinking about it when I normaly don't.
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yeah, perfect reviews sound like ads. But there's no other way to do them.
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but if there is something there to critique then is it really worth the score?
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that's the whole point. If you don't complain about it, you sound like you're pushing the product. But if it really deserves the score, there's nothing to complain about. We've got a mindset that thinks you can't praise something universally.
Not a problem for me. I'm such a negative personality that I can usually find something to say bad about a product. I don't think I've ever given a 6.
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Not knowing much about the world other than what you have stated, I think you did a good job of marketing the product, while trying to maintain objectivity. Were I interested in acquiring a setting for my next fantasy campagin, I might consider acquiring it. But after this Star Wars I am going to do a Dragon Lords of Melnibone campaign. The appeal of that setting over the Iron Kingdoms stemmed from my having read the novels based in the world. If there were novels for the Iron Kingdoms that one could use as a way to familiarize oneself with the area, mentioning those might add to the appeal of the game. If not, so be it.
All in all I would give your review approx. 4 clocks as it tended to markety the book but not to such a degree that I felt like I was watching an infomercial.
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Spriggan I really dont get a good feel for the World or the setting from the review. Could you go into a little more detail, or compare it to say Forgotten Worlds (arguably WOTC's strongest and most developed setting)
Does the Campaign take place on one continent or a whole world. Is technology primarily military, or do elements of it come into everyday life (cars, radios etc.)
What is the dramatic crux of Iron Kingdoms, what drives the characters to adventure? Is it war, greed, a heroic quest or something else?
Doesnt this have something to do with a tabletop game of some kind?
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Most of that stuff is vaguely touched upon since there's another 400 page book comming out just about the countries and peoples.
It takes place on a small part of a contenit, about the size of Europe, where people don't realy have the boat tech to traverse the seas, so they're kinda stuck where they are.
There's a russian country, westren europe country, barbarian highlands ect. From the small part they included in this book I can tell you that it's better the the Realms, but I don't care for the Realms much anyway. The setting is more strickt then standard DnD books, you wount be useing Monster Manuel 2 or 3 with it, nor the planer handbook (there are no planes of existances). Basicaly only things that would "fit" in with their setting are ok from different books, which is nice since it gets rid of all the clutter that you have with other settings.
The Tech is mixed, the military is more advanced, but there are things that everyday people know about or might own. As I've said several times it a mix of Victorian and Wild west, so no there are no radios, cars,
etc, though one my find a toaster. There are automated items, so it would be plauseable to have a very simple car or the like, but it would be a very rare and wonderious thing.
And yes, the wargame and the RPG are connected. The RGP came first the the Wargame (there were Iron Kingdoms adventures years ago with out any setting books). While they are realated the 2 products have different people working on them and you'll find that the miniature game and RPG may not allwayse mix when it comes to setting.
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Interesting,... well I bought the Wargame (war machine )yesterday,... and have the RPG on my list for Christmas...
I do like the concept, it sounds pretty cool.
Which begs the question, why dont they have tv shows or movies based off concepts like this.
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Get Escalation first. It's well worth it if you already have Prime.
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So have you picked up the this book yet Mr.P?
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I used to really want it, and I've debated it several times, but the truth is that my list of campaign settings is already full. I'm planning on running Necessary Evil and if that doesn't work out I'll run Eberron. I love the Iron Kingdoms, but it looks like I'll get my flavor from the mini game instead of the rpg.
It is really tempting though.
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Mr. P, I think you should try REALLY hard to get a job in the DC area so I can be in your game groups. Not that this was related to the rest of the thread, but, y'know...
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yeah you play the games I want to get other people into....
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So Spriggan, what kind of prestige classes are in the book?
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Umm... warcaster, rifleman, battlechaplen, blackclad, Mage Hunter, and Pistoleer.
So there's a mix of them, Mage Hunter is more of an NPC class since only Elves can be it and they're goal is eradicateing magic in humans, so unless you were all an Elven group or evil I don't think it would be so hot. Blackclad is also more of an NPC class since they're Driuds out to destroy all Technology. The other explain themselfs from the name.
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Mr. P, I think you should try REALLY hard to get a job in the DC area so I can be in your game groups. Not that this was related to the rest of the thread, but, y'know...
Heh, thanks. I'm having trouble rounding up my group now actually. The best day for play is already taken by one GM running two games that he alternates.
I doubt I'll make it out to DC, but feel free to come to the Loo. We have a big arch.
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Arch...
Ive seen it.
Its about as impressive as the Wall Drug Store/
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oh, surely not that impressive :)
been to the loo
twice.
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left a deposit both times
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oh sprig,.. you call it a d20 while Privateer seems to be calling it ogl...
which is it.
Do you still need the PHB to play it or is everything included? Conversely is it like M&M where its a self contained, different game then D&D 3.5?
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Jeffe. Go buy the book. You know it's cool. You've got a feel for it from the minis. Go buy the book and run a game of it already.
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Im not gonna buy it if I have to buy the 3.5 rules.
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Just download the 3.5 SRD.
If you have 3.0 it's all you need.
There's a well formatted version over at The OTher Game Company. Don't have the link handy.
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It's D20 Jeffe, the book says so, you NEED the PHB and DMG for the book, that's also stated. If it was OGL you wouldn't need to have those books.
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the sRD is all you need even if you DON'T have 3.0. It's complete
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Dang... Time to find my copy of the mongoose players guide.
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All that is Jeffe is a book form of the stuff you can get off of Wizards site for free.
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I know, but somewhere in my house I have a copy of the Mongoose pocket players guide 3.5
I might even spring for the pocket GM's guide too. I hate the way the download looks.
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I'd be the first one to say the idea is intriguing by the way... Iron Kingdoms seems like it could lend itself to internet gaming too.
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I guess I just wanted to know if its better than the other 3 Steampunk mecahnical D&D settings out there.
Ebberon, OGL Steampunk, and Dragon something...
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What about Sorcery and Steam?
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that too....
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Well, techinically Eberron isn't steampunk...it's more magicpunk than anything else (boy I hate that word).
As for Dragonmech. I have it. Very interesting concept with some great adventuring ideas. Plus, rules for tinkering and creating your own steam gadgets (very well done). Some rules could be ported to IK without too much trouble.
Flavor-wise, you'll do no better than IK. It is an awesome setting. In fact, I own every book Privateer has produced EXCEPT the character guide. Don't ask me why, because I don't even know...
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I wouldn't call IK steampunk since it's more magic then tech based, they call it "Full metal fantasy" becasue Privateer thinks that steampunk settings never fully apply magic to the level they want.
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Ok Im sold, I was just torn thanks to the large number of magical mechs saturating the market...
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Sprig,... this may be a dumb question, but how likely would it be for you to actually play IK. I cant find a copy anywhere... even Ebay right now and would be willing to buy it off of you, if you were willing to part with it.
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try this link (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0970697066/arthurianonli-20)
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you mean the one that says out of stock.
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did you call all these retailers? (http://privateerpress.com/client/display.php?s=VA&state=Virginia)
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yep, the stock response was, its out of stock because they sold the whole print run. We dont know when they're going to print a second run.
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Just about every game store around here has a copy. Any FLGS near you?
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I checked, Im gonna try Compleat Strategist tomorrow though... they said they didnt have it, but they have been known to not know what they have in store, and they dont have a computer...
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I would also try haveing B&N or borders order one. Lots of time distrubuters have them even if you cannot find something at a store. Privateer has said they're printing more, they're site use to list the book as out of print (and that they were printing more) and now is listed as instock. So chances are stores just haven't gotten the new run in yet.
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but I want it now, now, now! :)
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I like the sig quote, jeffe. :)
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I do too... Its exactly how I feel about history....
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it's exactly how I intend to TREAT history.
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I would like to point out here in the forums that the Compleat Strategist in 7 Corners VA, is possibly the worst run, most disorganized game store ever. I do not use those terms lightly, the manager a far from ambulatory grossly overweight man (500 pounds at least) sits in his wheelchair, gurgling (Im not kidding) and barely rolls two feet from behind the counter all day. No one in the store has any idea what they have in stock. Even if they had some sort of computer system I doubt things would be organized. Nothing is in a coherent section. There are piles of trash on the floor, discarded burger wrappers and the like. I feel like I need a tetanus shot... but a least I have the Iron Kingdoms Players guide, and I know where I can find Locked and Loaded and the Monsternomicon.
Was it worth it...
well If my arm doest fall of thanks to getting this book, it was.
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You don't need Locked and Loaded anymore Jeffe, the Players guide superseids it. Ya there are a few things that L&L go into that's not in the PG, but the world guide that's comming out in January or Febuary will have most of that in it. Also they're working on a 3.5 version of the monsternomicom for next year as well.
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Still 11 bucks for a full sized color poster map...
Now will that be a monsternomicon 2? or just a revamped 3.5 book...
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Ya, the full color map is a good deal.
it's supposed to be a 3.5 update and possible new stuff. Privateer isn't talking much about it since they're busy getting the World Guide out. If you buy the monsernomicon there's a conversion thead that has somepeople (includeing one of the main writers of it) converting things to 3.5, though not everything is covered.
Here's the link http://forums.privateerpress.com//index.php?showtopic=6459
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ok this is going to sound like a dumb question, but Ive never played a magic user character before in D20 and my Mongoose Players guide isnt very clear. Im rolling up an Arcane Mechanik character and am curious what level spells I have access too
I rolled a 15 for my intelligence level
Which I think gives me a lvl 1 spell slot and a lvl 2 spell slot.
Or does it mean I get an extra one a lvl 1 and another at level 2.
Arcane mechanik can cast 2 lvl 0 spells at lvl 1
Im just curious.
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it's a one time bonus, so he gets one bonus 1st and one bonus 2nd. Though he has to be able to cast that spell level to get it. So in your example your arcaine Mechanik would get one bonus 1st level spell, and once he could cast 2nd level spells (3rd level I beleave) he gets one bonus 2nd level spell.
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Ok so no 1st level spells till lvl 3 and no second lvl spells till lvl 4.
Doh!...
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time to push the limit on those cantrips, and to carry a big wrench...
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Cantrips are pretty awesome though. There are some really, really smart uses for some of them once you really start thinking about it.
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And take the Jack handling skill so I can send my steamjack buddy to smash up a bar.
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lol, no GM would give you a Jack at first level, they cost like 30k plus. But ya it would be fun.
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Give, .... I'm an apprentice Id be taking my masters jack out to do small tasks ;)
anyhow its only 16,000
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It doesnt explicitly say, or at least I cant find it in the text. Do humans still get their bonus feat, or is it negated by the fact that they have racial bonuses. I would tend to say they do because most of the racial bonuses to attributes cancel out.
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The new classes are fun... they really fit the setting and play into folks who want to much about with Mechanika.
I really like Mechanika btw, its a nice way to handle tech without getting too Steampunk. Full metal fantasy indeed. I give this setting high marks on originality.
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Ahhh here it is The Arcane Mechanik starts with 5 level 0 spells, and an additional spell for every point of intelligence bonus.
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Something has never sat well with me about gunmages. I don't know...I just think they're a little cheesy
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their writeup is actually kind of cool, and the flavor text explains that they make a lot of people very nervous...
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I've read the excerpt somehwhere and that's what turned me off. It's just strikes me as being really goofy and kind of broke the verisimilitude for me.
It probably shouldn't have, but it did. Don't know why.
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4 entries found for verisimilitude.
ver·i·si·mil·i·tude ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vr-s-ml-td, -tyd)
n.
The quality of appearing to be true or real. See Synonyms at truth.
Something that has the appearance of being true or real.
Learn something new everyday.
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I dont know it kind of reinforces the realism for me. After all guns are alchemical and magical, not just technological. There are magical mechanics, so it stands to reason that there are magical gunners, able to get different and varied effects from firearms.
I will admit, a lot of players might think Wild West gunslinger though,...
Just make em watch Plunkett and Mcclean and give em a great backstory.
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It's not from the firearms, it's through the firearms. The guns are basicaly their spell focus, and as you cast spells the guns detoriate because of the force being shot through them.
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and thats why I think it works.