Timewaster's Guide Archive
Departments => Books => Topic started by: 42 on June 24, 2003, 08:44:42 PM
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So, I saw the History Channel's documentary on super-heroes and comic books. It was interesting, but sort of depressing. They ended by talking about the business problems that comic books currently face. During the golden age of comics, comics sold in the millions and tens of millions. Now they say they they are happy when a comic book sells 150,000.
So I'm wondering where comic books are headed. What I fear is that they will become elitist and unaccessable like modern art.
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Ok, I haven't watched the show yet, I only found out about it today. But I'm taping this saturday's showing
But Naturally I have some other comments.
Some other thoughts. Comics today cost (literally) 20-30 times as much as a golden age comic. Comic book property owners (at least the main stream ones) also haver a lot of lucrative merchandising options and movie deals that they never had in the golden age. In other words, the "big four" and others who want to emulate their success (like Dreamwave, who seem to be doing a great start with the properties they've got rights to: GI Joe, Transformers, TMNT, et al) are unlikely to go "underground" and become elitest. They're more likely to go "hollywood."
However, there is a strong underground market, and for them, well, "too late." Most of the ones that make it "big" for independents are already inaccessible or at least very strange and deliberately shocking for the sake of shocking. To be honest, I'm less impressed with a lot of independent work than I am with mainstream work. There are naturally exceptions. spiegelman, McCloud, Sims for example. All have accessible work, but meaningful and aesthetic approaches. I'd recommend checking out all of their work.
The problem is a lot of this stuff dies right away or is bought by mainstream publishers like marvel and DC. In the long run, this is probably good, actually. Since it weeds out a lot of crap and leaves the industry stronger. Most independents it true, don't make a lot of money, but many continue jsut because it's what they want to do.
And like I said, I think between increased prices, merchandising, and media expansion, the mainstream isn't really in danger of going away.
Scott McCloud actually has a lot to say on the subject of the future of comics. Both his web site and his book "Reinventing Comics" are worth reading. He has a lot of innovative ways for comics to regain profitability and grow stronger. The web, both as a storefront and as a publication medium feature in his ideas a lot. Which is why I'd also point at Web comics. Some are donig pretty well for themselves. Penny Arcade, PVP and User Friendly are only a few of the examples.
Sure, I think the industry is going to go through a pretty rough time, forcing traditional publishers to rework and reinvent a lot of practices and morays - and small press to become very innovative, but I don't think the industry will die.
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I don't think the industry will die either. What I see happening is like what happened to modern art.
A lot of art forms start out as underground movements. Modern art and comic books actually share this in common. Then at one point the art form becomes popular, and the producers meet the demands by pushing out more stuff. This starts the era of the collectors, where the product is grabbed up in mass, in hopes of turning a profit. However, the producers eventually over-produce to meet the demands of the collectors. This drives the value down because there is now a glut of product. Course, now the industry is established, with traditions and history. So instead of dying out they go for quality to attract the collectors. This means producing less of a product but at higher quality. Course, this relying on collectors shrinks the market and causes the product to only be accessable to those who can afford to collect it. That what happened to modern art, and it seems to be what's happening to comic books.
So I think it kinda sad that what was once afforadable and available to every kid, is now only available to appreciative adults.
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The biggest current demographic, if I remember, is males 17-27. Which is a market with a lot of disposable income. It's also a market which, currently, will buy a lot of stuff just cuz it "looks neat" or has any sort of nostalgia value. The second biggest demographic is teenage males, which shares those traits to a large extent. But neither of those markets are terribly "mature" in terms of their aesthetic sense. Yeah, I think your pattern is a predictable path of the market in the future, but I don't think the big 4 will change that much -- except maybe to include more manga style material which is currently very popular -- because the target audience is mostly just find with male power fantasy, so long as it's drawn to their conception of "well"
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I also watched the show, being a History Channel addict.
My complaint with Comic Biz, related to 42's complaint about it being to inaccesible, is that I have a hard time finding comic books unless I go to a hobby store. Recently I've been looking for them at grocery stores and convenience stores and have come up mostly empty handed. Only one grocery store (of the four I frequent) has any comics, and they're almost all GI Joe and Superman, two stories I'm not interested in. Occasionally I can find a Spiderman at the 7-11. I don't see how the industry expects to draw new readers if they only sell their products in specialty stores.
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I've read a few articles on...a comic website who's name I can't remember...about a similar phenomenon: comics are the only merchandise where the people selling it actively berate you as a customer. Thinking back over my experiences, I have to agree--the people who work in comics stores I have visited establish selective, clique-y environments that deter outsiders and newbies; when someone gets the courage to go in, the clerk talks down to them and (often) makes disparaging remarks about whatever title they're going to buy.
We always joke about the annoying 13-year-olds that play games in malls, but the 37-year-olds who work in comics stores often have the same attitude, and that can't be good for the industry.
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When I was a 7 year old kid in Fort Hood TX I bought tons of comic books. TV back in the day sucked, (most people did not have cable) and youth activities were mostly based in sport. My dad and I didn't see each other much because of his job too which really sucked. But when he got the chance he and I would go down to the base shopette and buy ten or twenty books at a time. I got some of the books he liked, (superman and Batman and Spiderman and a few newer titles that suited my taste. He was always glad that I was reading, and he liked comic books because they told stories about hero's and how to be a good american. For us Comic books weren't juvenile or stupid (which is ironically what my mom thought) they were exciting and fun. Plus they were something my friends and I could share after we finished playing pong on our Atari's or take to our tree fort after school.
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I've read a few articles on...a comic website who's name I can't remember...about a similar phenomenon: comics are the only merchandise where the people selling it actively berate you as a customer. Thinking back over my experiences, I have to agree--the people who work in comics stores I have visited establish selective, clique-y environments that deter outsiders and newbies; when someone gets the courage to go in, the clerk talks down to them and (often) makes disparaging remarks about whatever title they're going to buy.
We always joke about the annoying 13-year-olds that play games in malls, but the 37-year-olds who work in comics stores often have the same attitude, and that can't be good for the industry.
Once upon a time most people got their comics from the local drugstore, then small bookstores and now its hard to get comics outside of the comic shop. The culture of comic books isn't about reading or using the books anymore its about collecting.
Collecting is kind of sad when you think about it. Not using an item and packing it away untill there are so few left that it becomes valuable. Comics used to be meant for reading, not collecting and thats why many people dont go for em anymore.
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In the show, Kevin Smith makes some remarks that address what you guys say. Being so snotty and inaccessible and well, icky, is a way comic fans have found to give themselves credibility, and at least respect. By doing this, they force other fans to acknowledge that there is some sort of bizarre elitism in the field. Usually it's met with condescention from the outside, but you have to admit that the comic nerd is hard to understand, which is generally good enough for most geeks of many ilks.
Though you're right. If the industry wants to expand a reader base, they need a cost effective way to reach a broader audience. Enter well made movies and Internet shopping. Yeah, it may result in the death of comic book STORES (or at least many), but to be honest, other than being able to whine about something to a sympathetic ear, it doesn't do much for me. And I can whine here (and at least pretend you're sympathetic). Combination game/comic stores seem a good solution. Especially ones like the local Game Parlour chain that encourages sociality by providing LOTS of space to play.
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There was a comic store chain back in Lincoln, NE that was the exact opposite. If an employe berated a costmer or what he was purching in any way he'd get chewed out by the owner or one of the managers. They often gave very opinionated views on comics or RPGs if asked, but never anything to drive people away. Great store. Another hobby store there (hobby town, Lincoln is where the franchise originated from) was cool two. The owner of the Hobby Town franchise was the manager there and he was an awsome guy. There use to be one here in provo called Captin Salamander that's owner was cool too.
I've never been insulted at Dragons keep, but the people there just plain scare me.
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It was my first trip to Dragon's Keep where I heard an argument about Vulcan philosophy. They scare me.
And I've actually never been insulted by a comic store employee. Game store, yes. Comic store, no. I think the whole esoteric attitude, combined with social ineptitude and vastly different interests often gets perceived as condescension and insult. (No, not all comic readers are socially inept, but there is a tendency for it).
Oh, and I don't think comics are just about collecting, I think that more people actually READ and LOOK AT their comics than just throw them on the shelf. The hermetically sealed, never-been-touched comic is very rare.
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yeah, but its the impression I get whenever I enter a comic shop and see all the super rare comics behind the glass at vastly overrated prices. There's a reason comic g\book geek on the Simpsons is so funny. "That is a rare radioactive man number three! What do you plan to pay for it with Mr. Santos!"
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I have never read a comic book in my life. Apart from the Beano, which doesn't count i think. The only place i know of to get them is in a RPG /Wizkids /magic /comics /animedvds /cool action figures place. So i only actually see them while buying 10 packets of Heroclix at once. So, yeah, i am not surprised the industry is smegged. When people have to travel to another *town* to get their comics it tends to cool their hankering for it a bit. And when people never actually lay eyes on a comic, it is not surprising that your fanbase is small. Compare that to Japan, where bookstores had entire isles dedicated to Manga.
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Ok, in every comic store that i've been in that was mroe a comic store than another type, the most prominant thing is ALWAYS the racks of new comics. they're displayed so you can see the covers and see that they're new. old comics are in long boxes or in storage that simulates long box storage, and you actually have to file through and pull comics out to see the covers. There are, of course, some super rare stuff most places have that they'll put on the wall behind the counter or under the glass in the counter, but they're hardly more prominant than the new comics.
I also reckon the comics market is different in the US than the UK. Used to be you'd find a comic store in every town. now I only know two stores in the area that sell more than just a few genre specific monthly titles, though B&N and Borders both carry a fairly decent selection of graphic novels or collected reprints. I did see a comic shop when I was Dublin, and several when in Helsinki and Tampere (Finland), so I think maybe you just live in a freak town, Entropy. which makes sense with you being a freak and all.
However, these are not to say the industry can't take measures. Getting monthly titles back into newsstands would be a start. After all, Newsweek is full color and glossy, comics should be cheaper to print. Granted, Newsweek probably commands a heckuva lot more for advertising than even Superman does. But it seems like something like that could be done.
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So I wonder if comic book stores will become like art museums that parents and teachers drag their kids there so that they can experience culture?
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Doubtful. Not soon at least. They're stores, pure and simple. and they don't "display" the art. I don't see a real precedent for it either.
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This is the near future of one comic book:
there was a link here, but to keep you from clicking on it and getting denied I erased it. See Spriggan's subsequent post.
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we can't see that article uless we're an AOL member or have a subscription to EW Kije.
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Oh, sorry. Well, the link goes to a brief story about how Princess Di is going to appear in an X-Men splinter group called X-Statix. She'll return from the dead, this time with mutant powers (which were not revealed.) Apparently the author treats this particular title as a parody on modern celebrity. And the royals are disgusted, as one might expect.
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freaky
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Not surprised. How would you like it if someone told you that some berk you do not know was using your dead mother for the main character of a mutant comicbook? Some people need to learn respect for others, and to stop regarding other peoples losses as something to cash in on.
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Please, they brought her back as a hero, honestly thats pretty cool when you think about it.
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No, it is disrespectful and blatent attention grabbing.
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now prince charles as the Black Addler that's totaly acceptable
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I have two questions.
one. Do you have a problem with it just because its Di, or because its a dead person. If she was alive would it be such a big deal?
2. Have you actually read it?
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I have one counter-question;
Do people in your neck of the woods get taught things like decency and respect for others?
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Are you kidding? This is America!
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This coming from a country with more tabloids and Papparazzi than the US has trashy talk shows.
Yes in fact they do, however it seems shallow to pass judgement on one thing you haven't read when you ignore a whole list of possibilities. How is Di as a superhero any more deplorable and voyuristic than depicting the men of the 101st Airborne like in Band of Brothers. Or Winston Churchill or Kennedy. You could make the argument that these films are historical, or at least have some value, but some people involved in the project might just disagree. Marvel could do a very poignent comic on the burden of celebrity and the nature of true heroism. They could also do meaningless crap. I think its only disrespectful if they do the latter. If they manage to pull off the former I think its a heck of a lot more respectful than the gits who leave flowers in front of her estate and treat it like a shrine.
You ask if I have respect and decency,...
The day you go down to Haiti and build a school for kids with your bare hands, or help administer CPR to a Cuban refugee dying on the deck of your ship, or help feed 200 migrants who had been packed onto a boat the size of a mini is the day I care about what kind of a person you think I am. Im pretty satisfied with the type of person I am and the choices I've made.
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Right. So you get taught decency. So at what point does taking a dead person and radically changing them, with absolutely no consultation from their next of kin, become defendable? The nature of the comic is irrelevant. How would you feel if that happened to your mother? Hmm?
Oh, and lose the self rightuous crap already. And not all British are the same. So not all of us like the paparazzi.
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At the point where compassion and taste elevate the status of the person, or at least dont sully the reputation of the dead.
Just because Marvel is bringing the Dead princess Diana in as a character doesn't mean that they are going to sully her reputation or the reputation of the Royal Family. I think there is a way to tastefully bring DI in as a hero. Frankly I think comic books are a good forum to examine the effect of the media circus frenzy. And I dont see it as a major personality rewrite either (like you seem to do). DI was as far as I can tell a hero for her work with AIDS and Landmines. The leap from hero to superhero isn't that far.
If it were my mom I would be excited and proud.
Now, what you call self rightous I call a lesson in generalization. You were quick to call me and the people "in my neck of the woods" disrespectful and indecent without knowing who I was or what I do. I work for the United States Coast Guard. We're like you RLSS only bigger with 35,000 people to protect and work in a vast amount of ocean. I joined the Coast Guard to preserve human life (which I think is sacred) and to help people in need.
I recognize that not all British people are the same and not all of them like the Paparazzi. My comment was added to futher illustrate the danger or generalizations... Mr. pot meet Mr. Kettle
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Actually, i did nothing of the sort Jeffe. I asked a simple question. I expected to get the precise answer that you gave me. I did not imply that you were not.
You seem to have a wildly different concept of respect for the dead than i do Jeffe.
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I think whether you're alive or dead you should be able to poke fun at anyone. It's especially fun when you play a joke on the living with the dead. I find those the funniest.
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Well thats the way I read it, remember I asked the questions first... about wether it mattered if she were alive or not and if you had actually read it. Your counter question was just a rude and a personal attack.
Do people in your neck of the woods get taught things like decency and respect for others?
That to me implies that you think I and the people in "my neck of the woods" weren't taught decency and respect for others.
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Honestly, there have been worse portrayals of dead people, and Princess Di in specific than as a super hero.
On the other hand, the royals have the right to be upset.
On the other other hand, due to free speech laws, Marvel still has the right to do it as long as what they do is recognized as fiction.
Whether that's tasteful or reasonable is up to individual opinion, I think.
Two observations though, if a movie presented Di as a rambo-esque action hero, that'd probably cause an upraor. However, if more realistic humanitarian efforts were exaggerated, probably not. neither one is honest, and I don't see how they're that different. How long do you have to wait for someone to be dead before you can start using them in speculative fiction?
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I think that's a great question Saint. I've seen parodies of JFK (like in MTV's clone high) and thought it was hiliourious. Now JFK has been dead for quite a while. Another US president we can look at is Nixon who only been dead for what 9 years now (colse to how long Princess Di has been dead), and people have been mocking him all the time. I'm sure it upsets his familiy but you hear no outcry because the general public's idea of Nixon is less favoriable. You also have to add in the fact that these people are public figures, even in death, and that lowers their right to privacey.
Here's another example. A few months ago there was a book about JFK's affairs as president, so outcry but it was more of a media circus about it. Everyone covered the stroy and I can't remeber hearing someone object to us wanting to know about JFK's private live. On the other had a book just came out about JFK Jr's love life and maratiel probelms he was haveing and there's been nothing but outcry in the media and from familiy members. Saying that we should respect the dead ect.
So if there person was not very well liked then there's no problem to it. And if he/she was well liked then apperently 6 years isn't long enough. Marvel shoudl try this experemnt again in 4 years to see what the reaction is.
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Found a nice article in the UK Guardian
Princess Diana, superhero
Comic book writer Peter Milligan explains why the Princess of Wales is perfect mutant material
Wednesday June 25, 2003
I first became aware of Princess Diana's strange, mutant powers on the day of her death. Speaking as a comic book writer, these powers were nothing compared to the flying, teleporting, lethally oscillating guys I usually deal with, but they were interesting all the same.
I was in my local pub in Muswell Hill, north London, with a mate called Eamonn, soon after Diana died. We raised a glass to her and, I'm afraid, proceeded to crack a string of sick, black jokes about what had happened. Maybe it was just the sort of thing you do when something terrible has happened: a way of warding off demons and bad luck.
However, I noticed that our dark humour had outraged some of the other people in the pub. It wasn't just red-faced Daily Mail readers, either.
A few Irish lads, after tutting and muttering about our banter, eventually decided they had had enough and stormed out. A young black guy found it too much to take, and left. Clearly, Diana exerted a strange, mysterious power from beyond the grave.
Years later, I was writing, among other things, a successful, groundbreaking comic book called X-Force, which I mutated into one called X-Statix.
Its characters have crazy mutant powers, but these powers are really vehicles for exploring our celebrity and fame-obsessed society.
The New York Times called it "a witty blast of media criticism disguised as a garish spin-off of the X-Men". Entertainment Weekly described it as a "cogent, savage deconstruction of celebrity culture in the guise of an X-Men spin-off".
My mutants all have agents, negotiate fees for image rights, open megastores and live the dream. People die in my comic. We even have a character called Dead Girl.
So I thought it was time we had a real dead girl in the team, and, clearly, Diana was made for X-Statix: someone famous for being famous. In the world of the X-Men, the mutants are feared and hated. In X-Statix, they have turned this around and made themselves stars - glamorous, rich and powerful. That seems, to me, to be pretty much what Diana did inside the royal family.
Number one in this storyline, called Di Another Day (I know - it's just the kind of juvenile pun that Eamonn and I were coming up with on the day she died) has just hit the streets, so we're only just gauging reaction.
The Daily Mail's anger was, I suppose, predictable, although I suspect that the Mail's readers are not our target audience.
I was amused to read a source from the palace saying that it was "appalling". I presumed that they all hated and feared Diana, and breathed a collective, establishment-sized sigh of relief when she died.
If any of them actually reads all five episodes of Di Another Day, they will see that Diana comes out of it a lot better than the British establishment.
Indeed, a couple of old palace eminence grise types arrange for this resurrected mutant zombie to be killed. "And this time, let's do it properly," one of them says.
Being one of a small but influential bunch of British writers working in the very American world of comics and superheroes, it is nice to be able to inject something peculiarly British into the comic melting pot. In a sense, we're doing a public service, helping to drag some Americans out of their insularity.
In fact, I'd really like to do a story where David Beckham joins X-Statix. He's the perfect example of some whose powers - the ability to boot a ball around - have been dwarfed by his celebrity status.
I'd like to have him run around in a spandex superhero costume, become a homoerotic pin-up, get his nose busted in a fight with the Hulk and, as a result, have millions wiped off his "share price".
Although, somehow, I don't think I'll get that one past the lawyers at Marvel Comics.
· Peter Milligan is the writer of X-Statix and many other comic titles yet to feature in the Daily Mail
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How long do you have to wait for someone to be dead before you can start using them in speculative fiction?
Well SE, I believe Vericom answered that for us once they set out to get the story of Jessica Lynch. Read something about that and you'll know exactly whats what.
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That article is interesting. The guy respects Di, but he has a not as socially acceptable way of expressing his feelings. He does things to piss people off, but he does them sincerely. maybe I'll check out the collected edition when it his Borders.
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Maybe if Marvel donated some of the profits to this it'd be ok for you?
Diana fund in cash crisis
By SUN ONLINE REPORTER
THE DIANA memorial fund - set up to honour the late Princess of Wales - has been plunged into a cash crisis due to a costly legal battle with a US souvenir firm, it was revealed today.
Lawyers have frozen all grants to good causes forcing fund managers to ask other charities to fork-out for their projects.
And chief executive Andrew Purkis admitted that 500 jobs at the fund were under threat.
American company Franklin Mint - which produces Diana merchandise including plates, dolls and jewellery - is suing the charity for £15million.
The court action comes after the memorial fund tried to sue the souvenir firm for using the late princess's image.
Franklin Mint won the 2002 legal battle but now claims the action was a malicious bid to damage its reputation and destroy sales.
The fund said today in a statement: "It has now been established the fund is legally obliged to freeze not only new grants but payment of existing grants."
Millions of pounds were donated to the charity after Diana's death almost six years ago.
And more than 120 good causes benefit from the cash including HIV/Aids treatment centres and landmine clearance projects.
The statement continued: "The fund is determined to find other ways of honouring existing grant commitments."
Charity bosses launched urgent talks with other grant-giving organisations to provide rescue funds.
Dr Purkis said: "We need about £10million in order to pay our existing grant commitments.
"We are going to ask a range of different grant-giving bodies if they can replace the funding if we can no longer fund it from our assets, and then when our assets are unfrozen again, we will reimburse them."
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I find this subject fascinating on a billion different levels. The comic sounds intriguing, the concept of using the dead as characters is one we could write papers about, and Entropy's charged reaction is so out of character (at least based on the little we know about him over the Internet) because he's never cared this much about anything we've ever discussed before.
The only subject of the three that I feel fit to address is that of using dead characters in media, because I used several in my novel (all of them British, oddly enough). That's a slightly different case, since it was an "alternate history" rather than an "alternate present," but in general I think the concept is one of literature's oldest traditions. If nothing else, let's look at King Arthur--a character who, assuming he actually existed, has been 100% altered and adulterated over centuries of stories and legends. Is it wrong to use him the way we have? If not, then why is it wrong to use Princess Diana--is it just because she died so recently? If so, then isn't our concept of respect for the dead really more of a respect for the family of the dead--implying that it's okay to write speculative fiction about a real person as long as nobody who knew that person is still alive?
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Entropy's charged reaction is so out of character (at least based on the little we know about him over the Internet) because he's never cared this much about anything we've ever discussed before.
Umm Entropy is the most opinionated person I know next to my Mom. Just look at the gun topic in the rants forum. You should chat with him, he's way mellow here.
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I didn't say he's not opinionated--he's probably the most opinionated person on the forum, nex to you :) --I just said that he's never had a reaction this strong or this emotional to any topic we've discussed before. And yes, I've read the stuff about gun control and Iraq and every other political topic we've ever had.
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Let me insert another character that will probably get some juices flowing.
Jesus.
Recently the subject of a book titled Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood friend which is certainly blasphemous but also hilarious. This is an actual historical figure who keeps popping up in fiction and nonfiction and still gets people riled up. So maybe even 2000 years isn't enough. Or maybe it just gets bad again. I don't know if it's a direct correllation to "time dead." There are obviously other factors. No one gets bent if you write a story about Nixon. Many do if you write one about Jesus.
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well now you all can talk about somethign else Marvel has nixed the princess Dai comic
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13196748
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Oh man, Marvel wussed out. Actually I would have read the danged thing for the one simple reason that I happen to like X-Statix. Although while I certainly think it would have been entertaining to see Di as a comic-book superhero, it would have upset quite a few people.
Sooo... I guess this means that they should have never used John Wayne in the highly-acclaimed Preacher series. Go figure.
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ANother example. Anyone get upset about John Wayne?