Spoilers: V for Vendetta

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

This is because you're foolish

[Skar]

I had never considered the idea that "right of the people," if you assume the framers were at least consistent in their use of the phrase, leads fairly obviously to the conclusion that they were not referring to institutionalized bodies like the National Guard or Police Forces as the "people" who are allowed to bear arms.  

I shall garner much glee from using that line of reasoning the next time I encounter an anti-gun nut...so I declare this conversation...FUN!

[Eagle Prince]

Skar, what state do you live in anyway?  I live in Utah, and so I also add the Utah constitution which says--

The individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and defense of self, family, others, property, or the state, as well as for other lawful purposes shall not be infringed; but nothing herein shall prevent the Legislature from defining the lawful use of arms.

So as you can see quite clearly that I have an individual right to own a gun.  In fact, should you wish to further go over the Utah laws then you will find that I have the right to own a gun and even open carry it w/o a licence if it is unloaded.  And they define unloaded as being 2 actions away from firing, ie it could have a full clip as long as it didn't have one in the chamber, thus I have to cock it and then pull the trigger to fire.  Or with a six-shooter (assuming single action, so the chamber will rotate when I pull the trigger) no bullet in the chamber under the hammer or in the following chamber- that is what is considered unloaded.  With a concealed weapon permit you can pack fully-loaded, ie point, pull trigger, bullet is fired.  I find the laws for conceal permit a little too strick, but they are okay I suppose.  If you've never been covicted of a crime of thieft or violence, then they HAVE to issue a concealed weapon permit to anyone who requests one (doing all the paperwork, etc.. I think there is about a 50$ fee also).

[Skar]

I live in Utah.

If you add a reasonable instructor's fee, which instruction you have to get in order to apply for a CCW, to the processing fees, it comes to about 120 bucks.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

First of all Eagle, thats enough of that right now.  If you want to debate this topic, I'll do that elsewhere, but I'll do it civilly and without you bandying about emotionally charged messages like calling me ignorant thank you very much. However passionate you feel about the topic, and however many articles you have read about the subject or want me to read, I will warn you now that if you want to curry me over to your side, insulting me isnt the way to do it. In fact since you dont really even know my postition on the topic, but rather a 3 second comment on an element of yours that in no way reflects the depth of how I feel about it I would suggest that you ask me more rather than attacking me blindly. Perhaps you wrote in haste, fine, I'll just have to ask you to please take the time to not do that any time you decide to call a person names.

[Eagle Prince]

Yeah its not too bad, but I think it should not disqualify all convicted felons + crimes of thief/violence.  It should be more like convicted felons of thief/violence, ie misdemeanors not counted and felonies considered by type.

You can also get a temp permit w/o doing the paperwork and such if your life is in immediate danger.  Of course when they get around to doing the paperwork and if found that you didn't qualify, then they could take it away.

I think they should teach gun use/safety in school same as drivers ed, and you could take a course and pay all fees/etc to get the permit.  Makes a lot of sense to me, but maybe that is just me.  This would also center around your 18th birthday rather than 16th, but you get the idea.

Jeffe, I did not mean anything offensive.  Sorry if you felt so.

[Fellfrosch]

I can say, without equivocation, that people who argue vehemently for their right to carry a gun are the ones who most frighten me when I think about them owning one.

[Eagle Prince]

Gunowners who most frighten me are those who illegaly own them, especially those with intent to use them for illegal and immoral pursuits.

[Skar]

So the thought of me owning a gun frightens you?  Why?

[Fellfrosch]

Actually, Skar, in the seven or eight years I've known you I don't think I've ever heard you argue vehemently for gun ownership. I'm talking about people like Super Dell, who wave their gun around in public and call people morons for not owning one.

[Skar]

Ah, I see.  I'm not trying to get you to group me with SuperDell (heaven forbid ) but I must say that I have often argued vehemently (without the pistol waving) for gun ownership and I will continue to do so.

My time overseas only accentuated my beliefs on the matter.   Not because I'm afraid the Taliban or AlQaeda is going to come over here and "get me" but because it became very clear just how short the distance is between our society and those where I lived for 2 years.  Only a few things would have to change in order for us, not just our children, us...to experience the full measure of a radical despotic government. One of the things that would have to change is we, as a populace, would have to be disarmed.  And there is a committed and vocal political party out there who's stated goal is just that.   If I don't argue against them, who will? (rhetorical)

[Fellfrosch]

Dangit, and you know where I live!

[Archon]

I know it was rhetorical, but, to answer your question, not many. To get a gun control law passed in this day and age, all you have to do, in essence, is to cite a couple (often skewed, and almost always misinterpreted) facts about guns, tell a sob story or two about people dying from gunshots, tell how your law is supposed to keep this from happening again, and close with something to the effect of, "If we could save even one life with this law, isn't it worth it?" The real answer, for the vast majority of these laws is "no," but in this day and age, it is socially unacceptable, if you believe that passing a law will save a human life, to vote against it. If you do, it is assumed that you don't care that these people die, because you could not possibly deem the rights of millions of people still living to be more important than saving whatever amount of lives per year.

[Skar]

Dangit, and you know where I live!

I don't actually.  I'm pretty sure you've moved at least twice since I was last at your house.

[Fellfrosch]

Excellent...