deckacards - 02/02/09 - Chapter 1: Memory

[deckacards]

Here it is...rip it apart, be brutally honest...etc.

Thanks for the time!

[Hamster]

Okay, so first off, yay! My first critique!
Deckacards, I like your writing style a lot, especially your sense of giving detail without it being Jordanesque, its simple and effective, so I really enjoyed reading this chapter. But it didn't quite hook me on your story. Personally, I think that the first chapter should have more of a hook, it should catch your attention and make you think, 'Wow, that was cool, I want to keep on going', and to be honest, while I got some of that, there wasn't enough action or mystery or suspense in the first section.(though I  might feel this way because I missed your prologue)
Don't get me wrong, I like the premise and think its an interesting chapter, and while I do want to read more of your stuff, I'm not on tenterhooks, waiting for the next chapter. Sorry if I'm sounding a bit harsh, because the writing itself is quite well done, and overall it's very good.

One bone I have to pick is when Ana asked her uncle “Warfare, Uncle?  What do you mean?”. I got the impression that Ana was quite a bright girl for being seven years old, and being a princess, most likely growing up around a court, there is probably a lot of news, and if there is a war going on, I would suspect that she would at least known that some sort of fighting or disagreement was happening. ( sorry if I'm assuming stuff when I don't know your world yet)
Beyond that, I enjoyed her dialogue with her uncle and those scenes of her trying to hit Bael, although the whole scene is veerrryyy long for a dream, six and a half pages with almost 3000 words, it just feels like a bit much once I found out it was a dream ( although I like that way of giving background into Ana's character)

Okay, sorry that I'm writing so much, but I love giving feedback.
The last page and a half, in the present, didn't quite work for me. I think I understand what you wanted it to be, one of those scenes that I said earlier, to make you turn the page to the next chapter, and I think you have a good scene, just not a great one. I like having it there though, and it does leave me wondering what's going to happen, there are just a few things about it that I noticed.

For one, during the whole scene, I get the feeling that you're trying to create suspense and urgency, but I didn't actually feel those vibes, only that it was supposed to.

I think to fix that you could try making her feel more panicked and urgent, because although you wrote stuff like, "She took a panicked breath , Her heart began to race She fought the panic that welled up within her, and Hurry! Please, hurry…" it felt like you were trying to directly tell us, she's scared, therefore her heart is beating faster, getting panicked, but I thing more indirect ways would help. Also, maybe if you shortened some of here thoughts, because I found that she was thinking too rationally for someone who discovered they were buried alive, and with less oxygen her brain wouldn't be working very well, so I would expect shorter, less coherent thoughts. (but this is just my opinion)
Also, I didn't care enough about Analan(cool name by the way) to be scared when she was buried alive, I didn't know her character at all, I guess I wanted to get a little bit more attatched before finding out she's in terrible danger, but while I wanted to find out what was happening, I realized that once I did, it wouldn't really mean that much to me because I barely knew any characters in the book, or the setting, so finding out the person digging her out wouldn't give me that feeling of wonder that I would get otherwise. (sorry if I'm not being very clear here)

Okay, sorry again for being kind've brutal,(and long) but you kind've asked for it... and I could just as easily written something this long about the positives, so I don't dislike it, I'm just trying to be critical. About the buried alive thing though, I did love the imagery of the last two paragraphs, and overall, a fairly good first chapter. Hopefully you have the patience to read through this all, and hopefully I managed to help a bit. Looking forward to your future stuff!

[deckacards]

hehe...it's really cool, Hamster...this is perfect...I've gotten used to accepting criticism in a workshop setting, so you're doing exactly what I want you to do...being brutally honest...like another poster once said (jwdenzel?)...if I wanted praise, I would have my mom read it

Thanks for the time and feedback! You directly addressed a few areas I wanted specific reaction to...and a couple I didn't realize I needed...Thanks!

[Reaves]

I haven't read your manuscript, but let me console you on your loss. Decka, the Cards truly played valiantly. Amazing comeback from 7 to 20!!

[deckacards]

hehe...thanks, man! I was rooting for the Arizona Cardinals last night...however, MY cardinals are the St. Louis Cardinals of baseball

Considering our season last year (and our fourth place finish...)...I'll take your condolences, apply about 15% to last night's game...and 85% as a belated response to the 2008 baseball season.

Thanks for the thought, though!

[jwdenzel]

Ok, chapter 1.  First thing: yeah, this POV is much smoother than the prologue. Again, I don't think it has to do with the fact that 3rd person Limited is a "better" POV style, I simply think that it's what your used to and comfortable in.  The prologue by comparison was pretty messy.  You clearly are at home in 3rd limited. Stick to it.

I like Ana. I admit that I wondered if we'd have a 7 year old protagonist in the book.  It's not a bad thing. I just didn't think of the chapter title.  LOL.  I can be slow at times. ;-)

Those guys were fighting for "the better part of an hour?"  Did you know that the vast majority of sword fights are over in less than 2 seconds?  I know in fiction it's more dramatic to drag it out, but that feels unrealistic.

...  Oh. It was just practice.  Was Nicholas REALLY that pissed?  If it was just him fighting that whole time he would have exhausted himself within a minute or two. Especially if it was all fueled by rage. 

“That, my pauper princess, is a much longer discussion, and one I would be happy to have with you when you are only a bit older

I admit I was relieved when I read this. I was 4 pages into the story, and the last thing I wanted at this point was an info dump.  Up until this point the chapter has been pretty passive; borderline boring.  By this point, let's take a step back and summarize what's happened:  Ana was watching some people practice fight.  Ana talks to somebody. Ana watches some people practice fighting.   That's 4 pages of passive activity.  Your prologue suffered much in the same way.  Consider alternative ways to get-things-moving.  ... Such as:

The chapter ending was very, very good.  You ended strongly. Consider book-ending your chapter with this. Start with her being buried alive. It's FAR more interesting and will grip the reader.  I think she smells canvas as some point in there.  That smell can trigger her memory.

You should probably describe (in this chapter) WHY she remembered that particular memory.

Overall:  very slow start. Ended well. (Remember "Late in, Early Out")   I think if you bookend things though, your chapter will flow much better and be an overall great start to your novel.

[jwdenzel]

I haven't read your manuscript, but let me console you on your loss. Decka, the Cards truly played valiantly. Amazing comeback from 7 to 20!!

Great game!  I really wanted the Cards to pull it out.  *sigh*

But because this is a critique thread and we should stay on topic, here's some more contribution to the topic at hand.

*thinks of something*
Oh yeah...

The bloody swearing reeked of Robert Jordan. Nothing wrong with that. RJ swears well.  But I think you can be more original. 

(Bloody Steelers!)
 

[deckacards]

Yeah, I struggle with how to bookend it, though without doing two things: 1) I want the way she ended up buried alive to be a mystery until much later in the book...saving it for a specific issue in the book. 2) I don't know how to bookend it without giving Chapter 1 a choppy feel...I hate it when people do that in their first chapters...I usually want time to settle into the character before switching POV or jumping ahead.

Plus...I don't think it would work to have her start the chapter buried, then somehow pass out to have the dream, then wake up again to end the chapter...the only thing i can think of that would cause her to go unconscious in the hole would be sufficating...and if that happens, then she better be found quick or she'll die at that point...and she wouldn't be able to wake up until out of the hole, then...and I'm still left with the "choppy" feel to the chapter...would have at least 2 breaks in the first chapter.

I may try to work on the first part and "spif it up" a bit as well as shorten the scene a bit to address the passivity...although, I will say my writing style does include the occasional passive, get-to-know-your-character-at-rest aspect to it...but I don't want too much...much more action in later chapters.

Hmmm...any suggestions about how to address my concerns above?

Also...regarding the "better part of an hour"...yeah, they're practicing but I originally had the time being about half an hour for the very reason you mentioned - endurance...but I struggle with a seven year old's perception of time...would a seven year old know how long a "half hour" felt well enough to dilineate between hour and half hour? not sure...I may go with a non-specific time frame...

And I LOVE "bloody"!!! I wonder if it will still work just because it is real swearing? UGH! It's also in their for Bael because it is characteristic of his homeland...others would swear differently...have to revisit that...

Finally...the "canvas" smell in both the memory and the final scene was intentional as a connection to memory...but more "after the fact" because of the way the chapter is structured...a tidbit...read the very last line of the chapter AND then read the very first line of the chapter

Question: The memory of Ana's experience with Han is important to her character...but I may be able to put it (because of events)...later in the book (a chapter or two later)...which would you prefer? Remember...taking the memory out of Chapter 1 would "get it going" sooner/faster...but at the expense of not knowing her character near as well until maybe the 3rd chapter...which would be best?

Thanks!!!!

[jwdenzel]

Forgot to mention this earlier:  the best writing I've seen yet from you was how you gradually revealed that she was buried alive.  FIrst we think she's lying down. Then there's a sound by her feet.  Then.. OMG, she's being buried alive!  Then... OMFG... she's upside down and has a bag over her head.

That's insnanely good suspense IMO.  Once you go back at some point and polish the prse a bit (it's good now, but can always be better, eh?)  that scene will really shine.  So good work.  Do more of that.  ;-)

1) I want the way she ended up buried alive to be a mystery until much later in the book...saving it for a specific issue in the book.

That's fine. No need to explain it. Of course I'm curious what happened. But you do not need to reveal it yet.

2) I don't know how to bookend it without giving Chapter 1 a choppy feel...I hate it when people do that in their first chapters...I usually want time to settle into the character before switching POV or jumping ahead.

Well that's up to you then.  Maybe your opening for this chapter is one paragraph:  an un-named character is laying down and struggles for air and smells canvas.... <transition to your flashback>  <Do flashback>  <Return to Ana and finish out the scene where her situation is gradually revealed to be worse and worse.>

Plus...I don't think it would work to have her start the chapter buried, then somehow pass out to have the dream, then wake up again to end the chapter...the only thing i can think of that would cause her to go unconscious in the hole would be sufficating...and if that happens, then she better be found quick or she'll die at that point...and she wouldn't be able to wake up until out of the hole, then...and I'm still left with the "choppy" feel to the chapter...would have at least 2 breaks in the first chapter.

Fair enough.  My suggestions are just suggestions. Just because I think something is too "passive" doesn't mean I'm right.  See what other people think.  Most importatnly, if you have considered all this and STILL think you're right... then go with your gut! 

One more thing... I once met Brandon Sanderson and had lunch with him.  (I brought sandwiches and we played MAGIC: THE GATHERING... lol)   While we were talking about stuff, he said something very wise yet obvious too in some ways:  Good chapters, he said, are like mini stories within themselves.  They have a beginning, middle, and end.  (We were talking about chapter 24 in Robert Jordan's KNIFE OF DREAMS).  This is hard to do, but if you do it right, those chapters feel very rewarding to the reader.  I get the sense that this chapter has the potnetial to be one of those chapters.  The thing that will make it work is a clever and effective execution of the flashback "memory."  Right now, IMO, they're awkwardly glued together. A bookend is just one possible way I can think of to smooth it out.

Go watch the movie MAVERICK for example: it opens with Mel Gibson hanging from a noose.  We have no idea who he is or why he's there.  Then the next 45 minutes leads up to how he got there. 

Also...regarding the "better part of an hour"...yeah, they're practicing but I originally had the time being about half an hour for the very reason you mentioned - endurance...but I struggle with a seven year old's perception of time...would a seven year old know how long a "half hour" felt well enough to dilineate between hour and half hour? not sure...I may go with a non-specific time frame...

Maybe your muscles are far stronger than mine.    I encourage you to lift a sword and do constant sword forms and swings for as long as you can.  If you can do 30 minutes of enraged fighting, then I will post a youtube video of myself bowing to you in worship.  If you can do 10 minutes or more, I'm casting you in my next movie.  I had an actor on my last shoot who was a martial arts champion and he was winded after just a few minutes.  Most swords are heavy!

Question: The memory of Ana's experience with Han is important to her character...but I may be able to put it (because of events)...later in the book (a chapter or two later)...which would you prefer? Remember...taking the memory out of Chapter 1 would "get it going" sooner/faster...but at the expense of not knowing her character near as well until maybe the 3rd chapter...which would be best?

That's your call. I have no idea what's to come.  All I know is that if you remove the flashback, you hardly have anything in the chapter.  Just a hint of her being buried.

I think the memory works. Just add some tension up front.

And this is now officially the most I've talked about any one chapter.  Reaves is going to be jealous. ;-)

[Reaves]

hehe...thanks, man! I was rooting for the Arizona Cardinals last night...however, MY cardinals are the St. Louis Cardinals of baseball

Considering our season last year (and our fourth place finish...)...I'll take your condolences, apply about 15% to last night's game...and 85% as a belated response to the 2008 baseball season.

Thanks for the thought, though!

lol AHAHAHA! Thats what you get when you don't pay attention...

[Flo_the_G]

This chapter has a very good opening, especially when compared to the prologue. It introduces characters, setting, adds a bit of tension, dangles a few things before the reader's nose that are explained later on... nicely done indeed, as is the rest of the chapter.

I sometimes had the impression, however, that some of the sentences were a bit too short. A few times I expected a sentence to go on when it didn't, which created a contrast between the pacing of the action and that of the prose.

I would have expected Ana's uncle to need more convincing before he trained her, because you described him as being "incredulous" at the proposition.

You should mention earlier that it's nighttime, as is I pictured the scene to take place in broad daylight at first.

It's already been said that the transition from the dream to the present is clumsy, that probably is because the scene before is written like a memory, not a dream. A dream would have less detail, and Ana would have no control over her actions.

The part where she's buried didn't entirely make sense, to me. Wouldn't the first thing you notice be that you're upside down? I think it takes more than closing your eyes to fool your sense of balance, and you'd also have all the blood rushing to your head (which you feel pretty much instantly if you so much as bend over) and I assume you'd also feel the weight of your body pressing down on you. I believe practical experimentation is in order.

[deckacards]

The part where she's buried didn't entirely make sense, to me. Wouldn't the first thing you notice be that you're upside down? I think it takes more than closing your eyes to fool your sense of balance, and you'd also have all the blood rushing to your head (which you feel pretty much instantly if you so much as bend over) and I assume you'd also feel the weight of your body pressing down on you. I believe practical experimentation is in order.

Hehe...YES! Practical experimentation! It sounds like we're planning a Reading Excuses picnic, here First, we'll all swing swords for half an hour...then, once jwdenzel has properly worshipped us on Youtube, we will take turns burying each other upside down...

I'll respond to the rest once a bit more reviews are in...good stuff...but I wanted to address the idea that you would notice you were upside down...

I wrote that portion with a surprising fact/tip in mind...I heard that when climbers are buried alive in an avalanche, they often (seemed like almost always...) become disoriented and literally can't tell which way is up and which way is down...they don't know if they are upside down or not...in fact, this thing i heard was saying many die in avalanches because they climb the wrong way when they are trying to climb out. So, this deal said the first thing you should do when buried alive in an avalanche is spit...seriously...by spitting, and paying attention to which way your spit "falls", you can tell which way is up and which way is down and can then climb UP to get out.

Just thinking about that makes me dizzy...

[Revast]

OK, here we go.

As another has said, make me realize it is nighttime far earlier. I was picturing a bright sunlight, even hot day, with caravan guards fighting back bandits all around the wagon. Then I'm sure the girl has been found and a multitude of awful, gut wrenching things are about to happen to her.

It was almost a let down when I found out it was just a practice and she has been grabbed by her uncle. The little emotion you were getting from me immediately vanished. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing. You did pull me in, you made me want Ana to stay quiet and escape. Learning that she was never in any real danger just seemed a let down.

The drilling, either mention several pauses in the fighting as men catch their breath, or don't give the hour/half hour/any time frame. I loved the fact that the band was drilling in the middle of the night to let one of their own burn off some girl-scorned steam. Great way to show camaraderie and a unit really caring for each other. The scene of Nicholas walking away into the night head down with the arm of his comrade around his shoulder really cemented that idea and stood out to me.

Her uncle's reaction and the immediate acceptance of Ana being trained in sword play was just not believable. Perhaps if you played this out as something they had done before, the lecture a false one, just play-acting that Ana and her uncle do for the soldiers benefit. Or something else you can think of. I just couldn't buy that it all happened so easy.

The buried alive scene; loved it. Good emotional pull, good staging as the scene keeps getting worse for Ana. Then even her rescue is perhaps not a good thing.

I won't post anything in the Prologue thread because in your email you said it was currently undergoing a major rewrite. However this chapter began much better.

Looking forward to the next installment.

[Reaves]

Alright. Finally got to it, and I'll jump right in.

I'm kinda with Revast on this.

As another has said, make me realize it is nighttime far earlier. I was picturing a bright sunlight, even hot day, with caravan guards fighting back bandits all around the wagon. Then I'm sure the girl has been found and a multitude of awful, gut wrenching things are about to happen to her.

It was almost a let down when I found out it was just a practice and she has been grabbed by her uncle.

I wasn't sure what was going on. The bit about Constance at the beginning did not make me think she was in danger of her life, and the mention of an hour made me think this wasn't a serious fight, only practice, but I still wasn't sure.

As for the time period, it was too long. However, it was made worse by saying they were only wearing leather, they were using steel swords, and they weren't (at least Nicholas) pulling their blows. Generally a fencing bout is to either 5 or 15 points, in a limited target area with lots of rules about right of way, point in line, and other restrictions that you probably don't care about. That takes about 10-15 minutes. Why someone isn't dead yet, I don't know   
       I would be fine with the rest if you give them helmets and take away the hour. Also note, I am only somewhat less guilty of this in the first chapter of my own manuscript, for reasons that are unimportant right now.

At first I wasn't sure if the Uncle was friend or foe, even after several lines of his dialogue. Would he send her back to the castle, or let her stay? Before I realized the swordfighting was only practice, I wasn't sure if he might be part of a coup. I don't know if that's what you intended, I just thought you should know.

I mentioned this somewhere else but thought I should say it again: your dialogue is very good. It seems very real and like something someone would say in real life but it still fits perfectly in written word. Bravo.

I also was interested in Uncle Han's leadership techniques. Its nothing groundbreaking that ups tension or anything but I was involved in the story and it further introduced his character.

The way you describe Bael as a big, red-bearded man glancing skittishly around makes me think he is insecure. I suppose it doesn't really matter though, because he probably won't show up later, but hey.

The description of the footwork was accurate, except for this part:

  With that, his rear foot took a step backwards and his front foot dragged quickly through the dirt to follow.

You don't drag your feet, or at least that is not how I have been taught. You sound like you know what you are talking about though, so if you've been told to do that by a coach I defer  Everything else though you got right.

Now that you've explained the scent connection between the dream and where she actually is, it seems pretty cool. I would only suggest that you make it the first thing she smells in both segments to show the reader that! 

I must agree with jwdenzel on the suspense as she is slowly realizing she is buried alive. Very well done. I could feel her fear. The steadiness and insistence of the digging... And then being dragged backwards out of the hole...can you say AAAAAAAUHHHH!! The claws tickling her ankles...

btw, I'm just going to guess what is going on so you know what your reader is thinking after the first chapter. The thing dragging her out is  some kind of zombie, hence the rotting flesh scent. Also, the undeadness explains why the enemies attacking Thorn's city are "seemingly invincible."

I really liked it! The first part of her as a six year old could maybe use a bit of tightening up but I am really interested in the story you are telling us. Good job!

[deckacards]

I KNOW HOW TO BOOKEND THE CHAPTER!!! I KNOW HOW TO FIX IT!!!!

It came to me on the way home...I'll start the chapter by telling the story from the POV of the man who buried her...a despicable man that is burying a girl's body...and I will have him refer to it as a body...because to the man, she's as good as dead...hopefully, the reader won't suspect that she is alive when he buries her...and I can do it by conveying a sense of urgency on the man's part 'cause he clearly doesn't want to be there long...and then he leaves when he hears a sound...THEN...into Ana's memory/dream...which I will clean up and apply your suggestions...THEN...end with the scene with her waking up...