3 - 23 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Ch. 4 - Ch. 5

[jwdenzel]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for reading this submission. If you missed the earlier chapters, that's OK. You can pick up right here and not be too lost.  (Or you can email / PM me if you want the earlier chapters, too)

This submission is lovingly dedicated to Frog, who in her review of my last submission,  said this about the King's sword:

"It will speak for itself."

 That's one spiffy sword.

You have no idea, my friend.

Looking forward to everyone's feedback!

J

[maxonennis]

I don’t care for the "omniscient-ness" of the chapters. From what I can remember of the prologue-chapter three, it seems to me to go against the previous feel of the story, and for me it gets tiresome. There’s also the whole breaking the forth wall thing.

Joining them now, is one more artifact, a sword. Through  the inky, hazy darkness it falls, as if in a trance. Under normal circumstances this sword would sink to the lowest depths, land upon the bottom of this dark abyss and remain there forever, forgotten.
But this is no ordinary sword. It is the sword carried and subsequently lost by Aric the Conquerer.

This should all be one paragraph, not one multi-sentenced paragraph and an one sentence paragraph. Oh, and conqueror is misspelled.

It took until the middle of page three before anything happened. I admit, by that time I was bored.

... after all, practical limits to what it could do alone.

I like the idea of the sword having limits to what it can do, however this sentence wasn’t really necessary to get that point across.

I see four one sentence paragraphs. The point of a one sentence paragraph is to make it stand out, but if it is used that much it loses its affect.

... A wind carrying the autumn chill breezed its way through the low-hanging branches of the forest, bringing also the smell of sea salt with it.

The opening of a POV, especially the first time the POV is used, is like the opening of a book. As the writing rule goes, “don’t open with a weather report”. I don’t know about others, but for me when this happens I have to force myself to continue reading.

He moved cautiously, deliberately placing each footstep in such a way that he wouldn't leave much of a trail. It was just the way he'd always done it.

Maybe it’s just me, but the kid (I’m assuming he’s a kid) is walking on sand. How can you not leave a trail?

The old tales told of legendary "ships" that sailed the Endless  ocean, but until recently, he had thought they were just stories for the babies.

This makes me that these islanders aren’t sea fairing people. Which, the intervention of magic aside, I find hard to believe.

He found the body of a drowned man several hundred steps down the beach. Nola searched him, looking for treasure, but didn't find any. The man's arms and joints were stiff.

This felt like an add on sentence.

So, the sword changes shape depending on the personality of the wielder, eh? Cool!

The story picked up by the end of chapter four, but chapter three and the beginning of chapter four were hard for me to get through primarily because of the switching from first "omniscient" to third limited.

[jwdenzel]

Hi maxonennis,

Thanks for the good feedback.  The third person omnicient / breaking the 4th wall POV is important to me and to the story, so I'll work on that.  If you have other specific suggestions to make it less hard to swallow, I'd very much be interested in them.

The most interesting feedback I got from this was that you saw Nola as a kid.  Which was not my intention at all.  But looking back, I can see how you got that.  hmmm.  I need to work on that.  He's intended to be in his 20's. 

Thanks again for reading.

[maxonennis]

The problem for me isn't the switch from omniscient to limited, but the switch from third to first. You start a chapter in first person omniscient and it evolves into third limited. I did the same thing in the story I'm rewriting now. What I did to change that was make the entire novel third omniscient. Of course I have set limits as well; my narrator is non-biased, isn't allowed to address the readers, follows one character at a time, isn’t allowed to jump into a character’s thoughts, and is essentially invisible to the reader. In short the narrator is the vessel through which we see the story, and nothing else.

You say that breaking the fourth wall is important to the story, well that sounds like the best and most helpful opinions for the POV can be found with an alpha reader, who would to sit down and read the entire novel to tell you if it works. Reading on chapter-to-chapter bases, we can help you identify a lot of the small things within the chapter, but for reliable feedback on the POV you need an alpha reader. (There are people on the board that would be happy to do that for you.)

[RavenstarRHJF]

Ok, overall impressions first.  From the synopsis you provided in the email, I couldn't help but think this story was influenced by another work of epic fantasy I've read recently.  But that's not necessarily a bad thing; it depends on where you take it from there. (Also, I haven't been privileged to read the previous chapters, so I don't really know for certain.  If you'd like to send them to me, I'd love to read them.   )

I actually like the "Storyteller" style at the beginning, but I think Max is right in that it's too... drawn out.  If you could condense it a bit; still provide all the information, but take out some of the unnecessary phrases that are simply repeating what you've already said.  Like here:

But in the end, all we can do is pray their
souls to the Garden so that we will one day meet them again.
Praise them for their contribution to this story and then move
on. To dwell longer upon it would discredit them. Acknowledge.
Pray. Move forward. Always forward; always upward.

Not everyone from the King's fleet was lost that night,
however. No, indeed not. For that would make for quite a brief
tale, and I'm certain neither you nor I would be witnessing this
chronicle if that had come to pass.

This and following seems like an awkward shift in the narrative.  Previously, the reader was there with the narrator, seeing everything that happened.  Why, then, would the narrator stop asking him to "look at what happened" and shift to "let me tell you what happened?"  Either find a way to say the same thing in the same style as before, or let us know that we're now moving away from the scene we just saw and back to our respective hearths.

...benevolent goddess moons.

Wouldn't it be better to say "benevelont moon goddesses?" Or are they not actually goddesses, just viewed as such?

... the tide brought carried the sword...

Just thought I'd bring this to your attention.  

Since we move to a different POV in chapter 5, I wouldn't start out with the omniscient there.  I'd find some way to transition at the end of 4 so you can start out fresh with Nola.  I disagree, btw, with Maxonennis about the "weather report" styling there.  I thought the wind made for a good transition, sort of like in a movie when the camera zooms in from a wide shot to focus on a particular character.

 There's no real feel for how much time has actually passed between the storm, the shipwrecks, and when the sword actually made it to the beach.  Even though I read the part where it described the sword waiting at the bottom of the ocean and then floating on the tide, I was still inclined to automatically assume Nola was on the beach the day after the storm hit.  Perhaps you could include some info on what he was doing during the intervening time?  And some description on what he looks like?

I'd also think that there would have been other scavengers among the wreckage considering the amount of time that has passed.  It would be unlikely that Nola was the only one to notice what was going on and be curious, and if so, it's highly unlikely he would have been the first to find either the cup or the sword.

Pretty good concept (as far as I know what it is) you've got going on here!  I look forward to more!

[jwdenzel]

The problem for me isn't the switch from omniscient to limited, but the switch from third to first. You start a chapter in first person omniscient and it evolves into third limited.

Okay, I see now.  Thanks again.  My intent was to always be in 1st person POV: to have the narrator simply tells a story about the sword. Like somebody telling you those events while at a campfire.   We're not supposed to get inside the sword's head and hear its thoughts.  Just have them desribed by an outside source.   Seems like I did not achieve that all that well.  I'll work on it.   Thank you for the input.

J

[jwdenzel]

Thank you Ravenstar for the excellent feedback.  I think you and max are saying much of the same things about the awkward transition from 1st to 3rd person POV.   I particuarly like your advice to transition this somehow between chapters.  Good stuff.

Wouldn't it be better to say "benevelont moon goddesses?" Or are they not actually goddesses, just viewed as such?

I tihnk you're going to get a chapter dedication somewhere down the line.

J

[ryos]

OK, I just got through this. All I can say so far is, "floating islands? Cool!" I liked the prologue; it was poignant and effective and has me interested in seeing the magic in this world. I'm intrigued by this god-king and what purpose he may have had in sending such a large fleet to die (I assume he knows enough about these islands to be able to predict their fate, though that may be an invalid assumption). I like your writing style; even if these drafts are a tad rough around the edges, I'm confident you can fix that with a line-edit pass.

That said, the narrative structure is just not working for me at all. I honestly feel like you hooked me with a strong prologue, strung me along for a bit, then cut the line. The first three chapters felt a bit slow to me, but that may well be inevitable and I was able to ride the wave of the prologue through to the magical storm and subsequent shipwreck, where things started to pick up--then, we get yanked out of the narrative into some random narrator's ramblings about nothing. He served us well to start things off and set the tone, but here he's just getting in the way.

It felt like the story was starting over; almost like you were calling a mulligan on those first chapters. It left me wondering what the point of the beginning was, and what it was trying to accomplish.

I'm belaboring this point that others have also brought up mostly because you said it was important to you to have that narrator in the story and, for me at least, it completely destroyed everything you'd worked to build. I would encourage you to think dispassionately about what the narrator's interjections are actually adding to the story, and consider whether or not that's a darling you should kill.

One strategy that might work would be chapter headings, like in Ender's Game. Those headings told a kind of metastory, with the teachers and administrators discussing and reacting to the actions of the main characters. That approach could work, but only if what he has to say adds depth to the narrative.

I did really like the sword's swimming sequence, once the narrator got out of the way. It reminded me of the children's book "Are You My Mommy?". The juxtaposition in my mind of a deadly weapon flying about decapitating inanimate objects, all the while pleading for something - anything - to be its [strike]mommy[/strike] master...well, it made me grin. It made me think that, when you say this:

My intent was to always be in 1st person POV: to have the narrator simply tells a story about the sword. Like somebody telling you those events while at a campfire.   We're not supposed to get inside the sword's head and hear its thoughts.  Just have them desribed by an outside source.   Seems like I did not achieve that all that well.  I'll work on it.

...you may be intending to work on the wrong thing. I'd take it the other way, weaken the storyteller angle, and give the sword a stronger POV/voice in the section. That would strengthen the narrative, whereas IMO your stated intent would actually weaken it.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing what comes next.

[Reaves]

This submission is lovingly dedicated to Frog, who in her review of my last submission,  said this about the King's sword:

"It will speak for itself."

 That's one spiffy sword.

You have no idea, my friend.

First off: Good call.

I really like the introduction. It brings us back to how you started the book and establishes a pattern. However, you might want to think about the formality/floweryness of the language used, as the introduction itself reads like dialogue.

It reached out to the nearest life form and found a simple ocean-bottom creature affixed to a crown that
once belonged to a great queen from miles above.

This sentence is rather awkward. It broke the flow and I had to read it twice.

It sensed life nearby; human life; and knew that's where it had to go.

Normally the contraction "that's" means that is. It seemed odd reading it here.

It almost sounds funny saying it, but this is great characterization for the sword  Very nice, viewing the world through the eyes of a sword lol.

The ocean rolled beneath the blade, beckoning to it. Its
deep voice called to the blade, enticing it to enter forever
into its watery embrace. How easy it would be to succumb to
that, and awake in a new age in untold years when the sea had
left and the earth gave forth its hidden treasures. Perhaps its
master would be there then? No. The sword had a message to
deliver. It pulled on its energy, and went on.

Rotten wooden crates,
loose lengths of rope, and even a water-bloated body now and
then.

I hadn't thought of it until now, but this made me think of it. There would be a LOT of bodies from a hundred-fifty strong fleet.

Here are a few of my thoughts as I read from Nola's perspective:

-He is a cautious man with a humble opinion of himself.
-What could he be so afraid of on the beaches?

eighteen perhaps, not much older
than Norell...

his son?

"May the Goddesses lead
you to the Garden," he whispered.

This, coupled with something our introduction mage said, makes me think that the introduction mage is a descendant of the people living on the floating islands.

  Featuring a beautiful, naturally curved hilt,
there wasn't a straight line on it save for the blade itself.

You are saying here the blade is the only part that is straight...

The metal darkened and
moved, straitening from a curved blade into a long, straight
one.

but here you say the blade was curved?

"Head south two hundred
steps and you will find some stored provisions. You are hungry."

I want that sword.


Very nice!! I loved this chapter. My memory is very fuzzy as almost anyone can attest, but I feel like this is your best submission to date. I really loved the characterization of both the sword and Nola. If I were reading this in a bookstore I would want the next chapter!

[jwdenzel]

Thank you, Ryos for your excellent feedback.  I start with the narrator again in chapter 6, and am hoping we can discuss this more in that thread.  I look forward to your comments on the matter.

It reminded me of the children's book "Are You My Mommy?".

I'm glad you picked up on this.   I have two little kids whom I read books to each night. I was definitely "inspired" by a similar story to the one you mentioned.  I wanted to convey Spectre as infantile in some ways.  Also, the search for a master is (as I am now discovering) one of the themes of the book.   Lots of people seeking their mommies.


Reaves... thanks for your feedback and kind words.    Oddly enough, when I wrote these chapters, I hated them, but they grew on me much later on.  So I'm glad you enjoyed them so much.

I want that sword.

Funny you should mention that...

Last year I filmed a short movie called "Spectre".  (www.spectre-movie.com) Yes, it's the same Spectre we're talking about, although there are no Seven Islands, no Nola, Aric, or King.   (I wrote the movie plot long before I got going on this plot, so they don't really match up).

Anway, I had the sword custom designed. It's available for order from this website.    (And no, that's not me in the photos)

J

[ryos]

Thank you, Ryos for your excellent feedback.  I start with the narrator again in chapter 6, and am hoping we can discuss this more in that thread.  I look forward to your comments on the matter.

You're welcome, and I'd love to...just as soon as you send it to me. 

[jwdenzel]

I sent it out this morning. Did you not receive it? Again... lol)

I'll resend to you to make sure
J