Timewaster's Guide Archive

I know, I'm feeling a little like Sazed and twyndil, making all these notes on writings and texts, not knowing that I'll later find all I have believed to be false.

I just know he has some twists and turns planned that I can't even fathom.

Plus, when we get close to figuring something out he will probably also play the roll of Ruin and go through and edit our posts to modify the original point we were making so people who read them are thrown off the trail.

Another bit of info that I literally just read from the annotations (Chapter 37 part 3)

A little bit of metal can go a long way, and you don't want to miss any. Now, this isn't as big a deal for the Inquisitors, who can use Allomancy themselves to see sources of metal a person might be hiding on their body.

He specifies they can use Allomancy.  That to me, says that they do so in the same way, with the same rules.  i.e. they burn the metals.

I am sorry if this has been discussed already. I did not look on all threads that were created before I arrived. But this has to be discussed and studied...

Reading Brandon's annotation is enlightening

Quote from: Mistborn Chapter Seven Part Two

Kelsier's warning about not flaring metals too much is a foreshadowing for book three of the trilogy. You'll see what I mean in a couple of years. Also, there's something very important about Vin's brother that will be hard to pick out, but has been foreshadowed since the first book. . . .

So I would wish us to discuss what we think we discovered about Reen that would be so hard to pick... for one person by his or herself... 

The main thing about Reen that struck me as interesting was that Vin hears his voice in her head.

When reading MB2 for the second time, it reminded me a lot about how Zane was spoken to by God.

I don't think there is any evidence of the God/Ruin <-> Hemalurgy link in the first book, but that is when you learn about the history behind Vin's earing.

Thus, I supposed that IMO what is "hard to pick out" is that Ruin (or maybe Preservation in this case) is speaking to Vin as Reen.

Elend di have a traumatic experience, Kelsier says he almost died in  a house reaid, I'm pretty sure the bead gave him the power.

I don't remember that specifically but now that you mention it, it does sound vaguely familiar.

I think that's the great thing about discussing this stuff as a group, someone else can add things that we don't remember or never found significant.

Excellent, Phaz. We definitely needed a topic on this.

Kelsier mentions that Allomantic power is latent before you Snapped. But, since he's the guy who told us that there's always another secret, I don't think he is the most objective on the subject.

There are interesting things to say about Kelsier, though. I would think getting originally caught by the Lord Ruler would be pretty traumatic. Instead, his powers waited until Mare died. Maybe that is because Mare essentially kept him going until she died, when he Snapped. Still, it seems that he could've Snapped many times during his time as a thief.

I think the trauma of the Snap is in direct relation with the powers you'll have. Just thinking from my Chemistry class today, which was about state changes. There's a thing called Heat of Vaporization (or Enthalpy of Vaporization), the energy it takes to move something from a liquid to a gas. Gases are very energetic compared to a liquid, so Vaporization energy is always very high for gases. Now, the Vaporization energy differs for different substances. A substance like salt (which has a boiling and melting point because the ionic bonds in them are very powerful) will have a far higher Vaporization energy than something like water.

So say for example, we have a "Trauma point" that is proportional to the amount of power you have as an Allomancer. More power requires more trauma.

Therefore, some noblemen mistings who were less powerful would need less traumatic experiences. I basically just restated what you just said, but with some nonsensical cross-referencing with chemistry.

Let's talk about Vin, too. Kelsier says there could've been many times Vin could've Snapped. Well, since she is so powerful, under this theory it would take a lot to get her to Snap. So, what point would she have Snapped? I think when her mother slays her sister. That seems traumatic enough.

I think Vin and Kell are both strong arguments in support of that theory.   It does kind of make sense from the standpoint of Snapping being what unlocks your power.  If you are more powerful, you need something more traumatic to unlock it.

Interestingly enough, you could also use this as an argument against the theory that it was what Elend swallowed that made him an allomancer, and it was just that the experience Snapped him. 

Elend was the son of a very very powerful nobleman.  It's unlikely he experienced something as traumatic as him being stabbed at the Well at an earlier point in his life.  This could of very well been the tipping point for him.

I know that it's by far the more popular opinion that the bead is what made Elend a Mistborn, but this is just something to think about.

Also, I know that one of the strongest pieces of evidence about it being the bead that made him one was Vin saying "Now we know where the first Allomancers came from."  But that is a somewhat vague statement.  She could of very well been referring to the Well or to Ruin or the power she released or something other than the bead.  In addition, even if Vin was referring to the bead, it doesn't mean she was right about it.

Well, I think the mists are present, day or night. Think of it from a Physics perspective: there exists the Law of Conservation of Mass. It means that matter can't be created or destroyed. Now, I understand this is fantasy so we can manipulate physical laws like that, but come on. Do the mists get "destroyed" just because it's daytime (during the LR's time, of course)? That would mean the Lord Ruler would need to create a new massive set of mists every nighttime when they came out, which would be ridiculous. He's not that powerful.

Just because we can't see the mists doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the day or in buildings. They could just be invisible, for all we know.

(Then again, I don't really know. But when I put it like that, it sounds awfully good, right?)

The only evidence I can think of  that goes against that logic, is that whenever talk about the mist being there or not being there, they typically (if I remember correctly, which might not be the case) don't say that it 'appears' or "disappears' but rather they use words like "coming" and "going."

This would imply that the mist isn't just something that is always there, and just becomes visible or not, but it's something that actually moves across the land.

I think this is also evident when you look at it inside buildings.  In the very first chapter when Kell opens the door to the Skaa hovel, the mists come in through the door.  They don't just materialize around the door.  The same goes for when Vin fights Zane.  The mist is described as entering the room.

I know that isn't a direct contradiction to your theory, but again, Brandon knows the answers, and if it was something like that I assume he would of used different words when describing these things.  (From this book and his others he does seem to be very careful when choosing particular words)

Phaz - Um, how'd you get to the conclusion that everyone would have to be mistings? I'm a little confused by that logic. If you could elaborate on that, I would appreciate that.

As for your comments about the Lord Ruler creating Allomancy, there are plenty of great topics where that's been discussed. I'm not trying to shut you up or anything--I like new viewpoints--I just want you to be informed. The main one I can think of is The Mists, which begins with my theory about an Allomancy-Mist connection. Perhaps you'll find that interesting.

I do, however, greatly like the points you brought up about how Partum is burned. I touched on this paradox on my last "The Mists" post, but it seems really strange that Partum can be burned at all if you aren't already a Mistborn, which would, of course, defeat the purpose of the metal entirely.

The Snapping thing is something I've definitely not talked about (or have seen it mentioned). Perhaps I could explain it in terms of Allomancy heredity.

You are right, Allomancy is a genetic trait. But, certainly, after the Ascension, the Lord Ruler would've had to create Allomancers. It is common consensus that the Lord Ruler just gave them this metal to eat, and then blam, you have Allomancers.

I don't think that means you need to Snap. (Note: I am beginning to think of a contradictory idea to this, which I will explain near the end of the post) I think, that since a "Genesis Allomancer" (first allomancer)'s kids would not have eaten this metal, they would need a Snap to awaken the power in the first point. Or something.

Contradictory theory time: What if all Partum did was essentially cause a Snap where there was none? I mean, make it so you are ABLE to Snap even if you don't have Allomantic heredity, and then immediately Snapping at the same time.

What is Snapping anyways? If you prefer to use my Mist-based definition of Allomancy in "The Mists" topic, then, I guess I would say that Snapping is the act of... being able to pull the mists. Or something!

I'm confusing myself now, I know it, and if I know it, you certainly must feel it. Therefore, I think I'll just stop talking and talk when I actually have something intelligent and comprehensive to say.

The logic (and definitions) I used are thus:

First, we assume that a Misting is someone that can burn one metal.   I think most people would agree that there are all kinds of mistings, including Atium, Alumninum, etc. 

We also assume there are 16 types of metals, and thus, there would be 16 types of Mistings.

If one of those 16 types of metals was one that granted you the powers of a Mistborn, than that would mean only Mistings who could burn that type (i.e. can't burn any others) are the kind that could become Mistborn.

This would leave you with 3 different types of allomancers:

1) People who are born Mistborn
2) People who are born a Misting of one of the other 15 types of metals
3) People who are born a Misting and can burn the metal to make them a Mistborn

I suppose that you could also create a 4th group, of people who have no allomantic power what so ever.  However, I don't think that logically it makes sense to have that group if you look at things in this manner. Thus, I group all the 'extra' people into the 3rd category, meaning they could become Mistborn.

The reasoning behind why it doesn't make sense to have people with no allomantic power and people who have the single ability to burn the metal that makes them a Mistborn is because it just doesn't seem to have the strength of a positive addition to the setting in the way that Brandon's additions typically do.

It's obvious that this magic system is very well thought out and very carefully planned.

It just seems silly to me that you would have people who are Mistborn, and then certain other people who could come Mistborn, but just have to find this other metal and burn it once in their life at some point, then they will be full Mistborn.  Why not just make them a Mistborn in the first place?  Plus, if this metal does grant the powers of a Mistborn, it seems like it would be something powefull enough that would grant anyone the power to become a Mistborn, not just a small portion of the population.

Plus, there are also issues with the first Mistborn.  If you went by these assumptions, you would have to assume that all those people (presumably before Mistborn even existed) would of all been Mistings that fell into the 3rd category (who could just burn that one metal making them Mistborn).

I guess logically I don't have any strong evidence against that, but it seems like the real answer is something much more clever.

I'm not sure if this makes sense at all, but I guess the short answer is if you accept those definitions and assumptions (which I think are logical) it just doesn't make sense that the metal that makes you a Mistborn is one of the 16 metals, because if that were the case, it would imply that everyone would be a Misting (with most people just in the way that they can burn that metal that makes them Mistborn).

Again, I can't think of any strong evidence against it, but the argument of it being one of the 16 metals just doesn't hold up well enough on it's own or seem clever enough to be the answer in this case.

Here's something I can't fully make the connection with.

There is lots of evidence that Hemalurgy is tied to Ruin (ie God with Zane and Marsh).  Hemalurgy has something to do with the metal in your body,  the presence of which also attracts Ruin to you.

However, Ruin is also seems to be repelled by metal.  "I write these words in steel."

So on one hand, Ruin seems very connected to (and gains his power from?) metal.  But in the other case, it seems to be something working against him.

Has anyone come up with any ideas to explain this?  It seems like a partial contradiction, so maybe one of the assumptions are wrong.