Timewaster's Guide Archive

Getting my writing published someday is more of an idle fancy to me than a real thought.

Don't let that stop you from trying. Send your stuff into Writers of the Future, etc and hope for the best.

Hell, I'm sure all of the publishers out there would love to discover the next Christopher Paloni.

After reading book two my friends and I were convinced that Elend was the Hero of Ages.

What I kind of wonder is who wrote the prophecies about the Hero of Ages? It doesn't seem like either Ruin or Preservation had any idea that it was Sazed.

(Also, I would change the title of the thread even more, trust me, it sucks to have the ending spoiled online. I accidentally read that Sazed was the Hero of Ages in a thread here before I even opened the book I had bought. I'd put something like SPOILER - How The Hero of Ages Ends)

I really enjoyed this submission, Erik! The prose was readable, the plot moves briskly, and at the same time Kail was mildly humorous as a narrator. For example:

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Don’t get me wrong. I’m not a huge car or bike guy. I only knew what it was because it said Ninja on the gas tank and ZX-14 on the back.

I love those lines. They're keepers, for sure. It's little quips like this that make Kail seem way out of his dimension, and that makes him seem more real.

Thanks, those lines kind of worried me. When I was writing the scene, it was just what I could see Kail saying. Now that I know at least some people like them, I'm going to be sure to keep them.

The gunfight did, however, feel a bit strange. Not overly so, but there are a lot "the man" and "one of the men" which seem a tad disorienting. It's not a huge deal because I could get through the scene just fine, though it may need some refinement.

It felt a little strange to me to when I wrote it. I am actually trying to clean that up right now. Right now I am making it a little longer, pretty much giving each goons demise its own paragraph. I'm just hoping that its not too long and makes the action seem slow. I want to convey that Kail was surprised that Lance was such a bad ass. Another thing I need to convey is that the goons are just a bit off. (But I go back and forth on if Kail would have noticed that).

I didn't really feel that Kail and Lance were really close friends, but I will take your word on it.

That's something I am trying to work on now as well. I only have a few paragraphs to show that Kail and Lance loved each other like brothers. (In my first, first draft I actually had Lance tell Kail that he loved him and didn't mean to get him mixed up in all of this as he was dying, but I think I cut that out of the draft I sent you).

Normally I wouldn't point out line-edits, but I didn't understand this at all:

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Lance in a lot bigger than me, but I cradled in my arms like he weighed nothing.

Missing word, perhaps? This was the only time I noticed a sentence grinding to a halt like this, which is better than I can say for my own writing

LOL, "but I cradled him in my arms..."

Regarding chapter two, I don't think it was as bad as the others suggested. After the action of chapter one, it actually felt good to let a little bit of the tension out. Ellie appeared to be a pretty normal narrator and felt human--that's another positive thing. I did not find the jump in chronology too jarring. In fact, there was one plus for doing it that way: it made me feel a little sorry for Ellie. I was thinking, "Wow, that sucks for Ellie. She certainly isn't going to watch any movies with them." I eagerly await her reaction to the events.

Yeah, I'm still not sure what I think about moving the chapters around. I really feel like the book should start with Kail and not Ellie. I'm also worried that if I start the book with the scene where Kail comes to get Ellie for work that it's getting too close to the dreaded "Starting a book with the character waking up."

I'm still debating just leaving them how they are, chopping them up and rearranging them, or just putting the two first chapters with Kail together, then going back to Ellie and doing two chapters with her, then back to Kail.

That said, I also thought the constant mentioning of animals was a tad overdone. Perhaps it is important for Ellie's character (Judging from your comments about the supernatural stuff we haven't seen yet, I'd venture to guess Ellie's experience with animals would help with the supernatural creatures we will see later), but it feels unintriguing. I don't really care about her animals at this point, so it got a little laborious.

Mainly its just my way to convey that Ellie is a lover of animals, which is important later on. I'm hoping that in those three sentences the reader will understand that animals are her life. She likes spending time with them, wants to be a vet and is really good with them.

One last thing I'll say about chapter two. If you want to do this "release the tension for a little bit" here, that's fine, but make the setup in chapter two pay off. Then I won't mind at all. But it better pay off

Well, Chapter Four is the next chapter with Ellie and so far its my favorite. I think Ellie really shines in it and I really like how it turned out. There is plenty of tension in Chapter Four I think. 

Final word: I would really to like to know why Lance, who has all of this weird magic stuff and fake passports, would work in the same place as Kail. Or why, if he was being chased, he could afford to settle down and work there. (Not that it feels unrealistic right now. I'd just like that particular part explained at some point )

Yeah, that is pretty strange. I better remember to explain all of that   

Erikson has more happen in a single novel than most people have happen in entire series. Martin is absurdly simple by comparison, as is everything done by Jordan (which most people consider the more "complex" and "involved" series). There really isn't much out there that is comparable to Erikson. Scott Lynch (who is awesome) gets some of the humor that Erikson manages to put in there, and Joe Abercrombie (who is awesome) gets some of the grittiness that Erikson has.

Glen Cook (who is awesome) told me that reading Erikson is like seeing the movie Platoon for the first time - the brutal reality of it all mixed with people who become larger than life. My personal opinion is that while Cook is like Platoon in a fantasy setting, Erikson is like Platoon on every steroid known to man in a fantasy setting mixed with all of the social and political gears of intrigue. Book 1 is confusing. Book 2 (especially the end) makes you think that Erikson is pretty good. Book 3 makes you wonder why you hadn't started the series years ago.

And Erikson helped get R Scott Bakker (who is more than awesome) published. That's how I discovered Bakker. To me, after I read those two, I feel like the guy who just had the most awesome Porterhouse steak who is then forced to going back to the 4.99 special at Dennys.

So . . . you're saying I should take the time to try these Malazan books?   

As for The Darkness That Comes Before, I'll give you the warning I give to everyone: it's really dark. When I say dark, I mean it. If you are easily offended (or not so easily for that matter) you may want to think hard before picking this up. The first book is very heavy with psychology and philosophy, with an ending that is NUTS. The following books get heavier into action.

Erikson does require an investment of time, I'm not gonna lie. The complexity of his series puts nearly all others to shame.

Now you've got me wanting to read The Darkness That Comes Before even more. I don't mind dark, few things in fiction bother me. (About the only thing I've ever stopped reading because of content was the Merry Gentry books, even though the setting, story and characters were cool, I got sick of reading about gang bangs that lasted 4 chapters. . . and I still might go back and finish them dammit).

I'm kind of curious what you mean by complexity, just keeping track of plots, characters and who's doing what? Is there anything that you could compare it to?

I've actually thought about starting on them for a while now but I've been kind of jumping from novel to novel lately, trying new things. I've also been looking mainly for things involving the Sidhe and Fae since they are important in the book I am working on. I'd love to find something featuring Scandinavian type Trolls, not the big dumb hairy ones, but the magical faerie type ones. So far the only book featuring one I've found is Holly Black's Valiant (which I recommend to anyone, I really liked it. I've heard a rumor that they are making a movie out of it). 

(Nevermind, I just looked it up and they ARE making Valiant into a movie, MTV is doing it and it comes out next year).

Anything by Roger Zelazany (he blends Sci-Fi and Fantasy on an ungodly level has 6 Hugo's and 3 Nebula's) is good and most classic Sci-Fi such as Dune and Foundation

RZ is my favorite Author. If I was smart I would just go and read anything of this that I haven't read yet. LOL, I was actually reading chapter one of Nine Prince in Amber before I posted this, just to compare how he started out his book to how I am starting out mine.

I should also mention that the list I gave above is just what I've read in about the last six months. I've read a ton of other stuff. A lot of people suggested Dune and I've read some of that series (my buddy got me to read God Emperor of Dune first, then I went back and read books one and two I think, I stopped on the one about the Duncan clones).

Pretty nice first submission.  I like the plot so far.  My main issue right now (and I take into account that this is a first draft, and you're already revising) is your prose in general.  It just seems... like a first draft.  Like you were just getting your ideas onto the page, and not worrying about artistry.  Call me a snob, but it grated.   (granted, you've probably got more of your story written now than I will in the next two months, simply because you're willing to use sloppy prose on a first draft, so don't take it too hard )

Ya, almost everyone I've talked had told me that the most important thing is to just keep writing. I try not to waste time getting it right the first time, right now I am just trying to get the general ideas and plot down and then maybe by draft 6.0 it will start to look pretty   

I, too, feel like Ellie's intro should occur in the same time frame.  At the very least, you should move Ch. 3 to the no. 2 spot- Kail riding off on a motorcycle is a much better point to leave off than right before he escapes from the office building.  And again with the prose thing... although in this case, it's almost like you don't fully realize who she is yet, so the way you write her naturally feels... unnatural.  Especially so in her interactions with Sonja.  Also, who is Jack?  Kail's Dad?

Damn, I was actually feeling like I had a better grasp on Ellie then I did on Kail. If it feels unnatural hopefully it's just because I'm trying to write from a woman's point of view for the first time and you know, understanding their point of view is impossible (ducks).

And yes, Jack was Kail's father. He was shot and killed two years back. The two men that shot him soon turned up dead.

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The section of the wall I had just touched swung back easily like it was on hinges, revealing what it had hidden.

Yes, but what was it hiding?!  A shallow compartment?  A movie theatre-size space?  You don't give us any hint of the actual dimensions of the room, other than it's obviously big enough to house a desk, a table, and a bookcase with room to move about between them.  But take into consideration that this is an apartment- that means standard configurations in each living space.  If it's a big room, give some clue, like how the walk-in closet is shallower than he's expecting, or something like that.   Sorry for the rant.  That one sentence just really bugged me.

Ha, everyone has had something to say about that sentence. You know, when I was writing it I spent hours trying to think of some cool way that Lance had hidden it, then finally I said 'screw it' and kind of wrote past it to get to what was inside. I've decided I need to touch that up a lot too. For instance, I can't think of any reason why that hidden closet wouldn't be filled with guns and a lot of other crazy stuff. Either it's full of tomes, books, scrolls, and various magical stuff, or Lance kept it all somewhere else.

I second Renoard's comments about the action, but would add that the action itself was confusing. I had a hard time telling who was shooting who with what when.

I also think we should see an obvious sign of Lance's supernatural abilities. His ability to stay up and going with such brutal wounds would be a dead giveaway if Hollywood action heros didn't routinely pull off similar feats. I was unable to tell just by reading the story that you weren't just pulling unrealistic Hollywood crap.

In that same vein, it felt odd for Kail to fail at breaking a bottle while a severely wounded Lance accomplished the significantly more difficult feat of smashing a head in a CRT monitor. Again, supernatural yadda yadda, but I don't get that from the scene as written.

I agree that I need to clean up the action, its another one of those spots where I found myself spending a lot of time so for the first draft said 'good enough' and continued on (I do that a lot and I find that it REALLY helps to avoid the myth we call writers block).

I keep debating if I should show Lance as obviously supernatural in that scene but I feel that it would change how Kail goes about things too much. As written right now Lance is only wounded once and the only thing he does after that is pick up and smash a computer monitor on the head of the goon who is completely focused on Kail.

The bottle I just pictured to be one of those thick Soobe bottles. Those suckers never break 

Lastly, it was a little funny that he thought a bullet bike with a sword strapped to it would attract less attention than an ordinary Dodge sports car.

He mainly got rid of the car because it was full of blood and he was afraid that the goons might know it. LOL, if anyone is interested this is the car I decided to use as Lance's. I just searched for 'fast cars' and got this online.

http://pictures.topspeed.com/cars/dodge/2007-dodge-charger-srt-8-super-bee-ar11097/IMG/crop/200607/2007-dodge-charger-srt-8-_1600x0w.jpg

Again, thanks for all of the help!

Ok, so firstoff, I liked your story, but I'm not completely buying into it yet, I don't feel drawn in totally, and so far some your plot seems cliche, with the sword, gauntlets, black suited guys, etc. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I didn't see anything that made your story stand out from other urban fantasy I've read in the past. Sorry if I seem harsh or whatever, I did really enjoy reading this, I just think it needs something to set it apart.

I know exactly what you mean. The problem is that right now in the story nothing is as it seems. As far as Kail knows the guys in suits are just that, thugs in suits. They aren't. I'm just uncertain how many spoilers I should put online, etc. I do worry though that the first few chapters seem run of the mill. You don't see Trolls, Unseelie Spirits, The Empire of Mu and world jumping until later on.

About your first paragraphs, it felt rushed, I wanted some more characterization and more dialogue between Lance and Kail(nice name, I use the same one w/ different sp in my book).  I think that you could have started off with a slightly longer intro to your setting and characters, maybe show some of Kail's routine, and then BAM hit us with bad guys coming in.
Again, it felt rushed, like you wanted to hook us right away with some action, but it needed more setup, more depth, instead of a shoot up a few paragraphs in. I didn't care that Lance died, I didn't care that much about Kail, because it was a sudden happenstance on people that I had first seen a few paragraphs ago. Okay, so it sounds like I hated it, but I didn't, I did want to see what happened next, but I think that you have the potential to do so much better than what you have here, so I'm trying to be more critical than uplifting.

Yes, I'm working on a rewrite of the first few paragraphs right now. The main thing I am changing is taking all of the things Kail tells us about Lance and instead having a dialog between Lance and Kail, after Kail finishes with that phone call, that reveals it.

Regarding chapter 2, I actually liked it, sure it was an infodump, but it was one of those necessary ones that sets up alot of background about characters and setting, so I enjoyed learning more. BUT. But I think that if you are going to have an action bonanza in the first chapter, it's cruel to not continue on in the next chapter. It grated a bit, a confusing transition, because at first I thought it was present time. I've done this in my writing too, I set up a character and conflict in one chapter, but in the next I go to a new one. I think that defeats the purpose, because you want the reader to feel connected to the characters, and alternating chapters don't really work that well, especially at the beginning of the book. I definitely think that you should either move this chapter, or cannibalize it and use some of it as flashbacks or integrate it into late conversations. Just my opinion, but I think it could work.

Ya, I'm not sure what  to do with chapter 2. I've toyed around with making the opening of chapter two into the beginning of chapter one, then having a scene where Kail and Lance drive to work, then going forward with Kail taking that phone call. I think I'll just have to write it and see how it looks. I would then put the rest of chapter two at the start of chapter four (which is my favorite chapter so far btw so I am loathe to screw with it yet )

Overall, great job, I really did like it, even if I sound like I didn't. Very impressive for a first draft, I wish my stuff was that good on first draft( or any draft really). Hope you give us more of this later, good luck with your writing class!

Thanks for the comments! I'm really glad I joined the group.