Immigration, Deseret News article, Aztlan

[Skar]

The tax issue is a double edged sword though, because their employers are also not paying the taxes they should and in many cases its on purpose.

Absolutely.  And I've stated that people who employ illegal immigrants should be punished as well.  No argument there.

In addition many of the migrants dont have access to the benefits of those taxes so the point is mostly moot.

Au contrair.  They do have access. Why else would they bother to leave Mexico or wherever else they come from if it wasn't better here than there?

Sorry, I tend to side with the person being screwed out of their benefits rather than the person benefiting from them.

 No need to be sorry.  We agree.  Where we differ is in who we think is being screwed.  You can't be screwed out of benefits you never earned or had any right to, which defines illegal immigrants.  They are not being screwed out of anything because they were never entitled to anything.  You and I, however, citizens of the country the illegal immigrants are leeching off of, ARE being screwed out of benefits. (Read the article I linke earlier for one example of what I'm talking about)

Plus some illegal migrants get the velvet glove treatment from our government, while others dont. If a cuban touches american soil now, they cannot be sent back to cuba. The reason they can stay has nothing to do with communism (If you get em at sea almost none of them are allowed in) and everything to do with political organization.

I certainly wasn't arguing that the legal immigration system was perfect as it stands, exactly the opposite actually.

Did you know that the bulk of all illegal migrants arent actually mexican or central american ? They are college students and previously legal greencard holders from all of the world who stay past their visa date?

 Yup.  I refrain from listing all categories of illegal immigrants for the sake of brevity.

I dont disagree that we should do something about migration, but there seems to be an awful lot of blaming the migrants and very little blame being meted out to the people who willingly hire them to make a quick buck.

Actually, legislation to punish those who "hire them to make a quick buck" is a primary goal of the anti-illegal-immigration movement and something I fully support.  The press spins it to equate with discrimination and mean-spiritedness, but it's always been there.

I also feel that we should be doing more diplomatically and commercially to improve working conditions and wages in countries that the rampant illegal migration
comes from. Doing anything else is treating the symptom and not the problem.

Yup. The root problem is the conditions extant in the countries the illegal immigrants are coming from.  No doubt about it.  And we're already doing a lot to fix those conditions diplomatically and commercially.  Some say too much and point to the instability caused by paying workers who happen to work for American companies wages that amount to 100 times the average salary elsewhere in those countries but that's another discussion.  I accept that you think we ought to be doing more.  My question is, at what point does it stop being our responsibility to improve peoples lives in other countries and start being their own responsibility?

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

My question is, at what point does it stop being our responsibility to improve peoples lives in other countries and start being their own responsibility?

When the flow of immigration starts going the other way. Its no less a war than the one on drugs or terrorism. If we decide to close our eyes and hold our hands over our ears yelling nah nah nah nah nah then we wont do anything to put a dent in immigration. Lets face it, migrants face the prospect of death coming here (Ive pulled them out of the boats with my own hands and helped give CPR to a Cuban who died on the deck of my ship) migrants die every day crossing the desert, or in the holds of cargo ships. Do we really think that the threat of jail is going to stop them? In my experience I've seen 20 people on a styrofoam boat with a makeshift sail try to make the run to Florida from Cuba, and I've treated Hatians suffering from exposure trying to do the same thing. For many of those people it was their 3rd of 4th attempt. We cant stop that except by making their countries better.

I guess thats the downside to being as rich and powerful as we are.

[Skar]

...Do we really think that the threat of jail is going to stop them?

Nope, but secure borders and jail for those that employ them will certainly help.  By accepting the illegal immigrants (refugees) from Cuba, Mexico, etc... we're actually propping up the regimes that made them want to leave. If people so desperate to leave were instead forced to stay, en masse, internal regime change would come about more quickly.  Especially if we were helping their revolution.  Amnestying the flood of illegal immigrants simply postpones the day the governments they are fleeing will have to deal with the problems the illegal immigrants are trying to get away from.  Are we doing the people in those countries a favor by propping up their governments?

In my experience I've seen 20 people on a styrofoam boat with a makeshift sail try to make the run to Florida from Cuba, and I've treated Hatians suffering from exposure trying to do the same thing. For many of those people it was their 3rd of 4th attempt. We cant stop that except by making their countries better.

Agreed.  We can't stop people from fleeing despotic regimes.  How are you suggesting we go about "making their countries better"?  Are we talking regime change?

I guess thats the downside to being as rich and powerful as we are.

The downside of being as rich and powerful as we are as a country seems to be the same problem many rich individuals experience.  Everyone wants a handout.  As mean as that sounds it's right back to the give a man a fish and feed him for a day or teach him to fish and feed him for a lifetime principle.

Edit: I guess my question is, how does accepting illegal immigrants into our country en masse improve conditions in the country where they are coming from?

[FirstMateJack]

Jeffe is exactly right. the real problem is that their nations don't provide the opportunities that they hear you can get in the U.S. and they will keep coming back. There isn't too much we can do to make other nations better. You can remove dictators and terrorists and watch the media and U.N. scream and nations start to band because they fear they are next. Or you can start giving handouts and welfare, and see corrupt officials take it for themselves.

There aren't very many good ways to do it.

[Fellfrosch]

Another thing I learned while living in Mexico is that things really aren't so bad over there--going illegal in the US was almost never a good idea. People would jump the border and end up living 15 to a room and working a menial job for low pay and no insurance, all the while hiding from the migra and living in fear. Yes they earn American wages, but they pay American prices for food and rent and usually end up with little or nothing to send home to their families.

Meanwhile, those who stayed in Mexico could find a job (there's plenty of work there, thanks in large part to NAFTA), live like free men, and support their families both financially and emotionally. Plus the food is way better.

[FirstMateJack]

I don't know how accurate this is, but I read in someones article (possibly just propaganda) that what you are saying is pretty much true, and the only people who come here are the desperate and criminal.

I think there might be truth in it, but I don't think it's entirely true, you would probably know better than the rest of us.

[Skar]

Fell: So, are you saying that the people who come here to America are looking for things other than these  "a job (there's plenty of work there, thanks in large part to NAFTA), live like free men, and support their families both financially and emotionally."  What do they come here for then?  I'm not disagreeing with you just wondering why they come here if it's like you say in Mexico.  

[Peter Ahlstrom]

If people want to come to this country, why not let them come legally?

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

i don't think anyone has a problem with that, ookla. We just want controlled immigration, so we have some vague idea of what kind of people are coming

[FirstMateJack]

Right, it's a country, not a park.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

i don't think anyone has a problem with that, ookla. We just want controlled immigration, so we have some vague idea of what kind of people are coming

I agree with that. The current system is not letting enough people into the country simply enough.

[Fellfrosch]

In my experience, the people who actually jump the border are just fooling themselves--they know that someone, somewhere, got rich in America, and they're determined that it's going to be them. The US is really kind of an Emerald City for a lot of people, with a vast mythology of hope that makes it difficult to see the reality. I wouldn't say that the ones who come to America are inherently lazy or criminal, just...blinded by the flashy lights, if that makes sense.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

My experience with the ones I've known is that they're just normal people trying to make a normal living.

[House of Mustard]

Yeah, my experience has been similar to Ookla's.  I work in the construction industry, and the illegals I've met don't seem any different than other construction workers -- they don't live 15 people per apartment, or seem to have any regrets about immigrating.  They're pretty normal people, with families and jobs.

[Spriggan]

A significant percentage of illegals already have a job before crossing, these are usually construction or factory jobs and some farming (depending on what part of the country they're willing to goto).

the 15 people per house happens but it's all the common anymore since more and more companies are willing to pay them a decent amount.