Timewaster's Guide Archive
General => Rants and Stuff => Topic started by: Nessa on September 20, 2007, 04:07:31 PM
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I don't think that having those opinions makes you a jerk. They're just opinions about someone's writing and you didn't care for it. Personally, I really liked his books. I can agree with you that his characterization was not the best, and I see what you're saying about the symbols lacking a tradition, and I think you're right there. But then I'm the kind of reader who will overlook a couple of faults to see the bigger picture/story. And Jordan's bigger picture was worth reading.
Sure there are complaints about the cast being too big. The plot too convoluted. But let's be honest here, he wasn't writing this book for the sake of a forward moving plot or to see actual resolution. He was writing for the sake of his imagined world, and he wanted to explore it as much as possible. This, of course, drove most readers insane because it meant the story didn't get anywhere. But for some readers that's why they loved these books. Because it was the exploring, but it took time to get through all that.
And for someone like you with the attention span of a peanut, of course you hated it.
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I have a problem respecting any writer who can't END a story. And I don't just mean because he died. I mean because he took 13 books to get to the (supposed) ending. I don't care how good it is, I'm never going to read that, because I can't respect it. There is no literary virtue that can trancend the inability to bring rising tension to a close.
So I don't think you're a jerk. I feel the same way.
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I've never read any of Jordan's stuff but I have a co-worker who's a fan yet he feels the same way Eric does about Eye Of the World--that basically Jordan had no experience and it showed in his first few books. The guy really likes the later books and the story as a whole but he really doesn't care for the first two books in the series.
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I may be wrong, but I was led to believe that Eye of the World was not Jordan's first published work.
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No, it wasn't. He'd done several books in the Conan world by then. I liked Eye of the World, and kept reading up through about book 9, though I'd given up at about book 5 that he'd ever end it. When he started introducing "major" minor characters and giving them more time in books 6-10 than the original main characters, I gave up.
But I admire what he did in getting people into fantasy--what he did to get me into fantasy again. I loved fantasy, but had stopped reading it in high school because I couldn't find anything good at my local library (a tiny library in a tiny town with no bookstore). I read a few Star Wars novels (the Timothy Zahn ones) but wasn't sure how to find more like that. My freshman year of college, the guy I was dating gushed about Robert Jordan when I told him about the Star Wars books, and showed me (*lightbulb goes on*) the fantasy section of the bookstore. I seriously didn't know how to find fantasy books in a bookstore before that--I grew up more than a half hour from the nearest one.
At any rate, I understand the mixed feelings. He wasn't doing such a hot job there at the end. But I felt bad for him being so sick, too.
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You're not, Nessa. Wiki mentions 6 different books that he published (under a different name) before the Wheel of Time began. And although I don't pay any homage to the world of wiki, I can say for a fact that I've personally seen 5 of the 6 books mentioned there.
Anyone can hate his books. They aren't meant for everyone. But dang if they weren't accepted as great books by a lot of people. Sales have shown that. Heck, everyone loved Harry Potter. Personally, I thought the last two books were a chore to get through. And even though I can say that the story was great, the writing and methods of story-telling were horrid! Of course, that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. But Rowling still sold millions of books despite that fact, and if she died I would still think it a sad thing because of what she was able to accomplish. Erikson's Malazan books are tedious for me too. For different reasons than Rowling, but I still don't think I could ever read another one of his books again. And millions of people love his stuff too. That doesn't really bother me though. I'll still tell people this stuff, and then get on with my life.
Robert Jordan was a popular writer. He affected a TON of people. Not every author can do that. Not every author should be given the chance. He affected a lot of people for the good though. And for that, I think that it's sad that he died. That doesn't mean that everyone else should think the same thing.
And it shouldn't make one bit of difference to anyone what any other person thinks. Like I said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you hated Jordan's books, fine. Say your piece, and then get off your pedestal. Nobody hates you, SE. If everybody had the same opinion of everything, this world would be a pretty crappy place to live in. But it's not. Rock on.
And, solely for the piece of me that loves gratuitous MK violence...
GET OVER HERE!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>>> !!!SCHPLAT!!!
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I don't think Jordan was a particularly good writer as far as writing skill goes. But he was a good writer as far as wildly succeeding at what he intended to do.
I read the Eye of the World and wasn't impressed. It was plodding and needed serious cutting down. There's one section I'm still not convinced was not an editing error (the repeated scarf scene).
Because I wasn't impressed, I didn't pick up the next book for several years. Then I had some tedious Photoshop work to do, and started listening to books on tape while working. I listened to the next few books, and eventually got hooked by the world and the characters, even though I don't think his writing improved much. The plodding of the first book he improved by writing around it instead of figuring out how to write it better.
The series did lack direction for a while in the later books, but I found the "side" characters interesting, so it didn't bother me. I was very happy however with the most recent book Knife of Dreams, since it wrapped up a few major plot threads and indicated the series was heading toward a clear end. Robert Jordan had every intention of finishing the series, and would have done so had he lived.
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I have a copy of Eye of the World that I got back when I was doing the Science Fiction book club. I did read it back then, but it's been years. A while ago I picked it up again and only made it through about two pages. Something about the way the sentences were constructed was bugging me, I think. I suppose I'll have to give it another try one of these days and see if I can pin down what exactly I didn't like.
I always wondered about that scarf scene. And I remember a "lay" that should have been a "lie," too. (Funny how these things stick with you.)
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I realized the other day from a song lyric ("If I lay here, if I just lay here, would you lie with me") that some people use it subjunctively.
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(Originally posted in the wrong thread. Oops.)
Thank the maker, I thought I was the only one who felt this way. The first 3-4 books were good, but after that he just kept dragging things out. In the last one I read (don't remember which) the entire book took one day of story time, jumping back and forth among the different storylines. After that I vowed never to buy or even read anoter of his books.
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I'm surprised anyone would say 'wow that first book was tedious but boy oh boy that 10th one, it was Great!' I have read them all twice (well okay up until his last one I've only read that once so far) and the first time I sped through all of them and didn't know at all what anyone was talking about when they said they slowed down. but the second time through I saw it....
I agree that he is good for the sake that he explores every avenue of the world... when I see a fantasy book with a map of this entire world and the book only explores 2/3 of it, it kills me, I'm always wondering things like...
"if this is the end of the world, what the heck is that lot doing?"
the first one I read by Jordan was 'New Spring' (the prequel) and I liked it so much I went to find more from the same author, I hadn't read more than LOTR in fantasy.... I'm completely hooked now. I love fantasy and give 99% credit to TWOT.
It makes me sad to think that with one man's death an entire world has died too, (way too deep? my husband would say I was sounding fanatical again) that is what I dislike.
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See, my thing is, the world didn't interest me at all either.
Ok, you've got big monster orcs. Oh, i'm sorry, their "trollocs" and they're "different" because they have bird or dog or whatever features. ok.
And you have a werewolf. That's original.
I am surprised by the first one sucks, but if you get ten books in it's good. Why do you bother?
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I'm trying to figure out what the werewolf your talking about is?
I agree that they are in the typical style of Fantasy.... Dark Lord, boy discovers he is the prophesied deliverer, great journey, education in magic, the teacher has to kick the bucket at some point....
most fantasy is like that, I mean... Mydraal, Dementor's, Ring Wraiths, what are they all? dark cloaked figures that show up at the worst possible moment out of seemingly nowhere.
I think that's why I like EOUL's books, they were off from the stereotypical fantasy.
I also agree that if you don't like the first book, why read ten more, but I liked them.
It's like that movie Napolean Dynamite, everyone kept telling me, "I didn't like it the first time, but the second time it was hilarious!" :-\ second time? I don't read, watch, taste anything a second time if I didn't like it the first.
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Quote:
I'm trying to figure out what the werewolf your talking about is?
Perrin being a Wolf-brother.
One of the reasons why Jordan took 11 books to explore his world, beyond the fact that he enjoyed it, is that he could. People kept buying the books thus TOR was quite happy to publish 11 books.
WOT is a traditional fantasy series in the Lord of the Rings, Dune tradition it therefore includes many of the same elements. Brandon Sanderson's writings are the other side of the coin, They take the original premise and ask what would of happened if evil had triumphed.
That many readers today no not have the attention span to enjoy an 8,000 or so page series is true but so what. Most of these people would not be able to get Through the 2000 pages of War and Peace, the 1100 pages of Don Quixote or the 900 pages of Les Miserables, the fact does not detract from the pleasure that some of us receive from reading those works. WOT of course is not in the same league as those books but it is still quite entertaining.
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Please stop reviving dead threads.
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I'm sorry if this would be considered reviving an old thread, but I wanted to make a reply, and I don't know where better to make said reply than the thread in which the original comment was made. If there is a better place to reply, please let me know and I'll post it there instead.
I just wanted to comment on the "repeated scarf" scenes. I think the scenes you are talking about occur as Rand and Mat travel from Whitebridge to Caemlyn.
The way I read it, I always assumed it was an in medias res scene. Rand and Mat are traveling, Mat already has the scarf around his eyes because he was blinded by the lightning, and Rand is sick from channeling the One Source. We, the readers don't know all this because it hasn't been explained to us. Rand thinks back to what has happened in the past few days, and then we read the account to discover what has happened up to that point.
This type of storytelling used to be a lot more common. Apparently it has become so much less common that it isn't easily recognized, and is a source of confusion.
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I know that's a prevailing theory about the scarf scene, but I don't think it was written clearly enough. It looks like a mistake rather than something that was done on purpose.
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Id say one of the things that make his stuff different is that he'll take something everyone has seen before (a werewolf) and make it something completely unique. There are literally dozens of these. More obvious ones are stuff the Forsaken talk about (elevators, phones). Trollocs i agree are uninspired, but a golem? (gholam) I was impressed.
Personally, i didnt like EOTW. The way i look at the series, when viewed as a whole is that the beginning and ends are bad (minus Knife of Dreams) but the middle is pretty good.