Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: SarahG on July 17, 2008, 08:10:02 PM
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I just noticed this detail, MB1 p.46:
That left only the small box that contained her personal effects: a pebble from each city she'd visited, the earring Reen said Vin's mother had given her, and a bit of obsidian the size of a large coin. It was chipped into an irregular pattern - Reen had carried it as some kind of good luck charm. It was the only thing he'd left behind when he'd snuck away from the crew half a year before. ... She gripped the bit of obsidian in her hand and pocketed the pebbles. The earring she put in her ear.
Is this obsidian good-luck charm an insignificant detail? Or does it tell us something about Reen? Could it somehow have protected him against the discovery of the Inquisitors (he left it behind the day he was captured)? The detail in which Sanderson describes it hints that it might mean something, but the fact that he never mentions it again (as far as I know) makes that less likely. Insane theories, anyone? Or is it an indication of insanity even to search for meaning in a detail this small?
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Last time I read that bit of the book, I wondered about it as well, not the obsidian in particular, but all her possessions, but drawing focus to the obsidian show's it in a new light?
We know obsidian is used to make more durable non metal weapons for mistborn, and is in the inquisitors axes, perhaps it has some other properties in hemalurgy, maybe the inquisitors carrying obsidian weapons was part of which held Ruin off. Perhaps another gift from their mother? Who was this woman?
Just some random thoughts on the obsidian!
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the thing i wonder about is what irregular patterns it was chipped into...
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Yes, you're right.
Vin also says Reen always just picked random times to move on didn't she? What if Reen uses the obsidian to know when the inquisitors are coming for him, and then moves on before they get there? Maybe it can sense inquisitors some how, or maybe it has some future seeing ability, and Vin's mom used it to predict Vin would become a Queen?
This is intriguing indeed, and perhaps it was a mist pattern?
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I would think its right to assume that Reen moved at random intervals due to the Steel Ministry getting to close. I would find it difficult however to believe the obsidian some how aided him in avoiding them or that it informed him of there presence. The thing is we already know that the Steel Ministry wasnt full of super spys, i mean if Camon's crew could hide from them then theres no reason Reen couldnt, and as far as we know until Vin comes along there was no reason for the ministry to be perticularly interested in him. Now i understand that there is alot about Reen we dont know such as the reason the steel ministry would be interested in him but i do how ever think you hit on something with the obsidian. is may not be an item of power but it could abssolutely be one of significance. maybe that piece of obsidian had something to do with Vins obligator father? or maybe it had been fashined as an indication of. . . i dont know the significane but i can feel that its probably important. my bad on my BUSHY imput
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I would think its right to assume that Reen moved at random intervals due to the Steel Ministry getting to close.
This is almost certainly true.
I would find it difficult however to believe the obsidian some how aided him in avoiding them or that it informed him of there presence. The thing is we already know that the Steel Ministry wasnt full of super spys, i mean if Camon's crew could hide from them then theres no reason Reen couldnt, and as far as we know until Vin comes along there was no reason for the ministry to be perticularly interested in him.
Especially because all magic systems that we have seen seem to have something to do with metals. Metals and (somehow) the mists have been clearly outlined as the driving element behind all the magic in this world. It doesn't seem like EUOL to break that rule just to drive a perfectly manageable plot point.
Now i understand that there is alot about Reen we dont know such as the reason the steel ministry would be interested in him
They weren't interested in him. They were interested in Vin. Vin was the center of their ploy to gain control of the ministry by proving Lord Tevidan's corruption, which they succeeded at at the end of MB1. They tried to find Reen because Reen was with Vin or knew where Vin was.
but i do how ever think you hit on something with the obsidian. is may not be an item of power but it could abssolutely be one of significance. maybe that piece of obsidian had something to do with Vins obligator father? or maybe it had been fashined as an indication of. . . i dont know the significane but i can feel that its probably important. my bad on my BUSHY imput
It may be significant, but it seems unlikely to be magical. Unless we find any further hints (or, in fact, ever see it mentioned again) it may just be an indicator of the kind of person Reen was.
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i definitely think that the obsidian has some significance. Obsidian already has a place in the book as a weapon against Allomancers, if it really is just a rock why not any other kind? And what "strange designs" are carved on it? The only designs we know of represent metals, and at the time Vin would have no idea of these symbols.
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Obsidian makes a great non-metal weapon because it chips into a very sharp blade.
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Valid point obsidian becomes like broken glass when chipped making a very crude but good blade. the idea that brandon would make an allusion to such a basic piece of weaponry and that alone is its impotance is kinda weak. i would rather think that IF the obsidian is of any impotance its not because of its use as a weapon. unless vin gets into a bind and somehow uses it as a last resort weapon. there are unlimited possabilities and not that i agree that the obsidian is of great import i think it means something..
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Vin uses Obisidian daggers thoughout the second book, instead of her more fragile glass ones.
Perhaps the symbols are a hidden message of sorts, and Reen carved it onto obsidian, because it was something that Allomancers couldn't affect.
I have a question, Ruin can't affect things written is steel, but could he affect things carved in stone or obsidian?
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i am definitely not saying i think its significant because its a weapon. right now its just....a rock. I am saying obsidian already has a place in the books as a weapon, so why not use any other kind of rock to represent what kind of person Reen was? Its supposed to stand out.
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Vin uses Obisidian daggers thoughout the second book, instead of her more fragile glass ones.
Perhaps the symbols are a hidden message of sorts, and Reen carved it onto obsidian, because it was something that Allomancers couldn't affect.
I have a question, Ruin can't affect things written is steel, but could he affect things carved in stone or obsidian?
Actually obsidian is more fragile than glass.
I think it could, I mean it can change words written in ink, or the rubbings. So I would think it possible. Also we have the fact that he said ANYTHING not written in STEEL cant' be trusted.
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From Wilipedia: "Obsidian is a naturally occurring glass formed as an extrusive igneous rock." Also "Obsidian is used in cardiac surgery, as well-crafted obsidian blades have a cutting edge many times sharper than high-quality steel surgical scalpels, with the edge of the blade being only about 3 nanometres wide [4]. Even the sharpest metal knife has a jagged, irregular blade when viewed under a strong enough microscope. When examined under an electron microscope an obsidian blade is still smooth and even."
Being a natual glass it probably has similar strength/fragility to regular glass.
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very interesting, thank you. I had no idea it was used in modern medicine
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Then why do Vin's glass daggers shatter (twice?) in the first book, but her obsidian ones never do, is this just because she never drops them??
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I've actually done some flintknapping, so here goes...
Obsidian and glass are pretty much the same, with the exception that with obsidian, you have to deal with a cortex usually (the rough, weathered outer area) and obsidian can have natural imperfections in it (weathering, etc). I'm not sure, but at least on the covers, the glass knives look like just broken pieces of glass. These would shatter fairly easily. If you've gone through the trouble to flintknap an obsidian axe or knife, however, they'd shatter less easily. The way you'd make the weapon would reinforce the edge and the body as a whole (bifacial flaking). The edge might get roughed/chipped, but retouching it wouldn't take long, even if you didn't have the skills required to make a knife yourself.
As far as unusual shapes go...the Classic Maya took flintknapping to a very artistic level. I tried to find some good pictures of obsidian eccentrics, but wasn't very happy with my results. Often very small, I've seen things over two feet long with the curves and delicacy of doilies. Here's a link to a picutre, though not as impressive as I would have liked. :-[ A lot of them are simpler than this, but it gives you an idea. When you think about how it was made (carefully hitting the obsidian with another rock/pieces of antler), I think it's amazing. Archaeologists today can't recreate this sort of thing yet, thought they're getting closer.
http://exchanges.state.gov/culprop/elsalvad/fi/0000006d.htm
I don't think Reen's would have looked anything like this, but it gives you an idea of what can be done with obsidian. We tend to think of obsidian as crude, I think, because in the Western world the technology was abandoned in favor of metal before it ever reached this kind of awe-inspiring sophistication.
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Then why do Vin's glass daggers shatter (twice?) in the first book, but her obsidian ones never do, is this just because she never drops them??
That would be my guess.
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The images of the weapons on the covers can't be taken as canonical (except for that sword on the book 2 hardcover maybe).
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The images of the weapons on the covers can't be taken as canonical (except for that sword on the book 2 hardcover maybe).
So the daggers are actually sai?
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cannot be taken as canonical.
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cannot be taken as canonical.
xD
Sorry, my bad. I was like. . . asleep when I read that.
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some times its fummy how thread topics can alter during the time of a thread. How things like the significance of "Reens Obsidian" can turn into a well informed conversation on variouse obsidian facts. not that it bothers me, i acctually find most of those inpromptu tidbits interesting. The reality is the obsidian was mention along with the earring as items from Vins past. Both of which once belonged to a past family member. now no matter how many times the earring is mentioned it doesnt seem to have any underlying importance besides being a last ditch jumping or shooting anchor, so i dont really follow the idea of a huge importance with the obsidian. i understant the thought that it might mean something but i would dought it has any real significane in the story line except maybe reminding Vin of Reen at some important time. also glass has the ability to be formed into a fairly soild item that has the capability to withstand slicing and stabbing just as long as the bones are avoides during either motion the glass dagger could be fairly effective.
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now no matter how many times the earring is mentioned it doesnt seem to have any underlying importance besides being a last ditch jumping or shooting anchor, so i dont really follow the idea of a huge importance with the obsidian.
So in your opinion, the countless posts regarding the earring are for naught?
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please dont take it the wrong way. i dont think posting opinions and ideas about certain aspects of the books are ever for naught. i only beleive that i should express my own opinion while at the same time attemping to stay unbiased. its not that i believe either the earring or the obsidian have no relevance, its more that i can argue either way. i think that both items have the potential to be important but having the potential to be important doesnt make the items important. leaving these items so odscure allows countless ideas to form about their relevance, leaving us (the reader) open to interpritation until something concrete is actually founded. this is an aspect in branons writing i really enjoy. had he for instance talked about the obsidian or whatever is carved on it as much as the earring people would almost instantly see an underlying importance but because he doesnt it makes us feel like there sould be an importance that is only being hinted at.
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It seemed to me that you were saying despite the fact that the earring was mentioned frequently in the book and that there are plausible theories in abundance, that it actually held no real significance and therefore neither did the obsidian. I was merely trying to ascertain where you stood on the issue.
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Red herrings are another tool in Brandon's box.
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Red herrings are another tool in Brandon's box.
He doesn't need them though, that's what the forum is for, lol.
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i know thats what you were doing i just didnt want it seen in the wrong light. the beauty of opinions is that the are forever alterable. i could read a post that has a great point and on the spot change my idea about the relevance of anything in the books. i just find aruguing subjects like these so entertaining that its hard to pass up questioning something even when i might beleive in it. i think in a past post i expressed that i dont know the items significance but i beleive there to be significance. i only argue both points sometime to play "devils advocate"
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Don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to make anything out of it, I was just trying to understand your correlative argument.
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Red herrings are another tool in Brandon's box.
Red herrings are annoying. And smelly when you pickle them.
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now no matter how many times the earring is mentioned it doesnt seem to have any underlying importance besides being a last ditch jumping or shooting anchor, so i dont really follow the idea of a huge importance with the obsidian.
So in your opinion, the countless posts regarding the earring are for naught?
Wait GreenMosta . . . . did you even READ teh books? Not to be rude or anything, but her earring has has been pivotal on many occasions. (I.E. The end of book one!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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While the implied significance of Reen's obsidian exists, it is much more likely that a Skaa thief who had a more advanced understanding of allomancy than most other Skaa would choose to keep an unassuming, undetectable weapon in his possession. I know this isn't a very sexy theory, but not every block can be the keystone, can it?
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Yes, but why did Reen leave it behind on that fateful day? Did he just carelessly forget to put it in his pocket?
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Yes, but why did Reen leave it behind on that fateful day? Did he just carelessly forget to put it in his pocket?
Probably leaving it behind hoping that Vin would figure it out eventually.
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now no matter how many times the earring is mentioned it doesnt seem to have any underlying importance besides being a last ditch jumping or shooting anchor, so i dont really follow the idea of a huge importance with the obsidian.
So in your opinion, the countless posts regarding the earring are for naught?
Wait GreenMosta . . . . did you even READ teh books? Not to be rude or anything, but her earring has has been pivotal on many occasions. (I.E. The end of book one!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Ok i can undertand your reasoning and im not faulting it. that was part of my point. yes the earring has served as an important piece to Vin allomanticly but does it have any significane other than being a piece of metal stuck in her. because if your point is that the earring is important due to how she uses it then i agree but that also means that the obsidian could be important because she might use it as a last ditch way to kill someone with allomancy. and im kinda sure i already posted that idea. i think the items can be important situationally but not nesessarily deeply like some are trying to imply. now dont get me wrong im alwase down for a crazy idea or two so im not locked in but i like to point out that like you suggested about the earing being pivitol im sure a metal splinter would have been just as good.
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Ok i can undertand your reasoning and im not faulting it. that was part of my point. yes the earring has served as an important piece to Vin allomanticly but does it have any significane other than being a piece of metal stuck in her. because if your point is that the earring is important due to how she uses it then i agree but that also means that the obsidian could be important because she might use it as a last ditch way to kill someone with allomancy. and im kinda sure i already posted that idea. i think the items can be important situationally but not nesessarily deeply like some are trying to imply. now dont get me wrong im alwase down for a crazy idea or two so im not locked in but i like to point out that like you suggested about the earing being pivitol im sure a metal splinter would have been just as good.
Only if the metal splinter in question involves the sacrifice of Vin's sister...
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I'm not sure what to make of the quote.
I am near certain that the earring is crucial to the story as portend in many of the threads on this forum. Brandon mentions the earring as part of the collection and then goes into detail about the obsidian and in parting fashion, offhands a single short sentence regarding the earring. The obsidian appears to be a masterfully placed red herring; then OtM mentions red herring and creates a whole new dilema.
But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of Ookla. Are you the sort of Mok who would purposely mention red herring when one doesn't exist, to create a red herring? Now, a clever man...
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I'm not sure what to make of the quote.
I am near certain that the earring is crucial to the story as portend in many of the threads on this forum. Brandon mentions the earring as part of the collection and then goes into detail about the obsidian and in parting fashion, offhands a single short sentence regarding the earring. The obsidian appears to be a masterfully placed red herring; then OtM mentions red herring and creates a whole new dilema.
But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of Ookla. Are you the sort of Mok who would purposely mention red herring when one doesn't exist, to create a red herring? Now, a clever man...
Inconceivable!
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I sometimes give hints when I think someone's close to a breakthrough. But sometimes I make misdirecting comments...when I think someone's close to a breakthrough. ;)
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now no matter how many times the earring is mentioned it doesnt seem to have any underlying importance besides being a last ditch jumping or shooting anchor, so i dont really follow the idea of a huge importance with the obsidian.
So in your opinion, the countless posts regarding the earring are for naught?
Wait GreenMosta . . . . did you even READ teh books? Not to be rude or anything, but her earring has has been pivotal on many occasions. (I.E. The end of book one!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Ok i can undertand your reasoning and im not faulting it. that was part of my point. yes the earring has served as an important piece to Vin allomanticly but does it have any significane other than being a piece of metal stuck in her. because if your point is that the earring is important due to how she uses it then i agree but that also means that the obsidian could be important because she might use it as a last ditch way to kill someone with allomancy. and im kinda sure i already posted that idea. i think the items can be important situationally but not nesessarily deeply like some are trying to imply. now dont get me wrong im alwase down for a crazy idea or two so im not locked in but i like to point out that like you suggested about the earing being pivitol im sure a metal splinter would have been just as good.
The forums here consider the earring important because Vin's mother gave it to her after messily killing her sister. Sorta like Marsh got spikes staked through him after several people were messily killed.
The bottom line is that Vin seems to have several powers that seem to be related to hemalurgy, not least of which is the ability to pierce copper-clouds. The earring would then be a piercing, like the inquisitors spikes, which somehow give or maintain this power. The sacrifice to give her this power would be her sister. Thats why the earring has gotten all the forum-time, especially because we understand so little about hemalurgy.
However I'm intrigued by the notion that Reen knew enough about Allomancy to keep a non-Allomantic weapon handy. That may well be meaningful as well.
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now no matter how many times the earring is mentioned it doesnt seem to have any underlying importance besides being a last ditch jumping or shooting anchor, so i dont really follow the idea of a huge importance with the obsidian.
So in your opinion, the countless posts regarding the earring are for naught?
Wait GreenMosta . . . . did you even READ teh books? Not to be rude or anything, but her earring has has been pivotal on many occasions. (I.E. The end of book one!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Ok i can undertand your reasoning and im not faulting it. that was part of my point. yes the earring has served as an important piece to Vin allomanticly but does it have any significane other than being a piece of metal stuck in her. because if your point is that the earring is important due to how she uses it then i agree but that also means that the obsidian could be important because she might use it as a last ditch way to kill someone with allomancy. and im kinda sure i already posted that idea. i think the items can be important situationally but not nesessarily deeply like some are trying to imply. now dont get me wrong im alwase down for a crazy idea or two so im not locked in but i like to point out that like you suggested about the earing being pivitol im sure a metal splinter would have been just as good.
The forums here consider the earring important because Vin's mother gave it to her after messily killing her sister. Sorta like Marsh got spikes staked through him after several people were messily killed.
The bottom line is that Vin seems to have several powers that seem to be related to hemalurgy, not least of which is the ability to pierce copper-clouds. The earring would then be a piercing, like the inquisitors spikes, which somehow give or maintain this power. The sacrifice to give her this power would be her sister. Thats why the earring has gotten all the forum-time, especially because we understand so little about hemalurgy.
However I'm intrigued by the notion that Reen knew enough about Allomancy to keep a non-Allomantic weapon handy. That may well be meaningful as well.
Well, we never know if Reen's father is the same as Vin's or not. He could potentially have been an allomancer himself. PLUS we never are told what happens to him. He could be out there somewhere still. ;)
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The forums here consider the earring important because Vin's mother gave it to her after messily killing her sister. Sorta like Marsh got spikes staked through him after several people were messily killed.
The bottom line is that Vin seems to have several powers that seem to be related to hemalurgy, not least of which is the ability to pierce copper-clouds. The earring would then be a piercing, like the inquisitors spikes, which somehow give or maintain this power. The sacrifice to give her this power would be her sister. Thats why the earring has gotten all the forum-time, especially because we understand so little about hemalurgy.
However I'm intrigued by the notion that Reen knew enough about Allomancy to keep a non-Allomantic weapon handy. That may well be meaningful as well.
I'm not so sure we should dismiss Vin's earring being a red herring so easily. Is it stated anywhere for sure that piercing copper clouds is a Hemalurgic ability? It could be something akin to not being able to affect metals in someone's body, but with less of a strength barrier. All the people who can pierce copper clouds are very Allomantically powerful in and of their own right, and Marsh even tells Vin when he's first training her that most Allomancers dismiss Bronze as one of the weakest powers.
Of course, Vin is strange in other ways as well, so the mystery continues . . .
And Miyabi, when the Inquisitors are interrogating Vin at the end of Mistborn one, I'm pretty sure they mention that they captured Reen and tortured him to death trying to extract Vin's whereabouts. It's true they could have been lying, but I can't see a very good motive for them to make up such an unhelpful story.
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the only thing is, in one of the annotations Sanderson mentioned Reen being important. Whether that means he is still alive we don't really know.
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I sometimes give hints when I think someone's close to a breakthrough. But sometimes I make misdirecting comments...when I think someone's close to a breakthrough. ;)
Well, I guess that's good news - either way, it means we're close to a breakthrough. Unless Ookla neglected to mention that he also gives hints and makes misdirecting comments when someone's way off on a wild tangent.
Only a great fool would reach for the herring he was given. We are not great fools, so we can clearly not accept the herring. But Ookla knew we were not great fools - he would have counted on it - so we can clearly not ignore the herring.
OK, we can quote that movie for the rest of this thread and I'll be happy. What makes it funny is that most of our theories and arguments do sound a lot like Vicini trying to win the battle of wits. Almost every argument we can make has a counter-argument, using the same evidence to prove the opposite point.
But it's my opinion that the counter-arguments to the earring's importance are pretty weak. That would be way too much of a red herring, even for EUOL, I think. The obsidian, on the other hand, probably is pretty much an insignificant detail. Who knows, though? It's fun to speculate.
As for Reen being still out there, here's the quote:
MB1, p. 610
"Sold you out?" Kar said. "He died promising us that you had starved to death years ago! He screamed it night and day beneath the hands of Ministry torturers."
I agree with Czanos that the Inquisitors wouldn't have much reason to lie. I believe that the annotation refers to something else we'll discover about Reen, perhaps connected with Ruin; I don't think it means he's still alive.
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I sometimes give hints when I think someone's close to a breakthrough. But sometimes I make misdirecting comments...when I think someone's close to a breakthrough. ;)
Well, I guess that's good news - either way, it means we're close to a breakthrough. Unless Ookla neglected to mention that he also gives hints and makes misdirecting comments when someone's way off on a wild tangent.
Only a great fool would reach for the herring he was given. We are not great fools, so we can clearly not accept the herring. But Ookla knew we were not great fools - he would have counted on it - so we can clearly not ignore the herring.
Mwa ha ha ha ha.
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Mwa ha ha ha ha.
Do you ever get tired of wielding such enormous power over the rest of us? ;)
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Well, regardless of if it's a herring or not, Ookla's post implied that we were getting close to something before he posted. (Or that we were wandering aimlessly, but I see more logic behind him efforting up a vague post in a topic close to something as opposed to just arbitrarily throwing a few in there. Of course, now that I've posted this, it's possible he could do it elsewhere to throw us off. Or not do it elsewhere, to throw us off.)
The main point is, I think either Reen's piece of obsidian is important, or Vin's earring is not. Or both. The most current posts before Ookla's were about how just because something has the potential to be important it does not have to be important. I think that in the future we should be very careful not to immediately attribute importance to Vin's earring, but look at it from both sides.
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i agree whole heartedly. the possability of importance instantly creats the opening for countless theories.
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lol i can picture Ookla sitting in front of his computer right now, snickering and rubbing his hands together gleefully. "All is proceeding as planned. Mwa ha hahaha hahahaha!"
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lol i can picture Ookla sitting in front of his computer right now, snickering and rubbing his hands together gleefully. "All is proceeding as planned. Mwa ha hahaha hahahaha!"
Haha. You're probably right. Because whether we decide he was hinting that we were close or that we are way off then we are actually probably wrong so he is laughing hysterically at us.
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that more than anything makes me spite alpha readers. dont get me wrong, that would be one of the perks of the job and i would love nothing more than pushing and pulling on all the readers while i knew the answer
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that more than anything makes me spite alpha readers. dont get me wrong, that would be one of the perks of the job and i would love nothing more than pushing and pulling on all the readers while i knew the answer
Sounds like you're a hypocrite.:P I'd be one too, so all is well.
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Well, regardless of if it's a herring or not, Ookla's post implied that we were getting close to something before he posted. ... The main point is, I think either Reen's piece of obsidian is important, or Vin's earring is not. Or both. The most current posts before Ookla's were about how just because something has the potential to be important it does not have to be important. I think that in the future we should be very careful not to immediately attribute importance to Vin's earring, but look at it from both sides.
My vote between those two options (if those were our only options) would be that the obsidian is important. Vin's earring is mentioned so often that I think it would be bad storytelling for it not to end up meaning ANYTHING. It would be the kind of false foreshadowing that leaves readers feeling not just tricked but betrayed. (Then again, that's exactly what EUOL did in Alcatraz, to prove how mean authors are.)
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Well, regardless of if it's a herring or not, Ookla's post implied that we were getting close to something before he posted. ... The main point is, I think either Reen's piece of obsidian is important, or Vin's earring is not. Or both. The most current posts before Ookla's were about how just because something has the potential to be important it does not have to be important. I think that in the future we should be very careful not to immediately attribute importance to Vin's earring, but look at it from both sides.
My vote between those two options (if those were our only options) would be that the obsidian is important. Vin's earring is mentioned so often that I think it would be bad storytelling for it not to end up meaning ANYTHING. It would be the kind of false foreshadowing that leaves readers feeling not just tricked but betrayed. (Then again, that's exactly what EUOL did in Alcatraz, to prove how mean authors are.)
It is quite possible that he wanted to do something with the Obsidian, but then never got around to it, or never found room for it and simply dismissed it. So we could be right on both counts. Maybe it WAS going to be important, but now isn't.
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It is quite possible that he wanted to do something with the Obsidian, but then never got around to it, or never found room for it and simply dismissed it. So we could be right on both counts. Maybe it WAS going to be important, but now isn't.
Yes, that seems very likely. It would explain the unusual detail about the obsidian in one paragraph, and the complete neglect of it through the next two books.
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i have to point out that since the all powerful Ookla made his satement about sometimes pushing people if they were in the right dirrection and sometimes not the topic of conversation had a dramatic fall off. people stopped talking about their insane ideas and started talking about the plain validity of the topic. its it important? this just goes to show the kind of power said people have over us and how much i envy them. besides the point i am often a hypocrite and i enjoy being one. nothing is ever fun unless you can have it both ways.
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i have to point out that since the all powerful Ookla made his satement about sometimes pushing people if they were in the right dirrection and sometimes not the topic of conversation had a dramatic fall off. people stopped talking about their insane ideas and started talking about the plain validity of the topic. its it important? this just goes to show the kind of power said people have over us and how much i envy them. besides the point i am often a hypocrite and i enjoy being one. nothing is ever fun unless you can have it both ways.
That's just part of it. The other reason no one has said anything is because there is nothing to be said. The obsidian gets one paragraph of description, period. At least the earring shows up a few more times and might (or might not!) be effecting Vin's magic.
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i have to point out that since the all powerful Ookla made his satement about sometimes pushing people if they were in the right dirrection and sometimes not the topic of conversation had a dramatic fall off. people stopped talking about their insane ideas and started talking about the plain validity of the topic. its it important? this just goes to show the kind of power said people have over us and how much i envy them. besides the point i am often a hypocrite and i enjoy being one. nothing is ever fun unless you can have it both ways.
That's just part of it. The other reason no one has said anything is because there is nothing to be said. The obsidian gets one paragraph of description, period. At least the earring shows up a few more times and might (or might not!) be effecting Vin's magic.
EVERYTHING in the books points towards her earring having a HUGE significance in what she can do. the odds of it being not what is helping is nil to none.
In any case I still stand that it was possibly intended for something big, then neglected, OR it was just being saved for a last minute bit of intuition from Vin.
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i have to point out that since the all powerful Ookla made his satement about sometimes pushing people if they were in the right dirrection and sometimes not the topic of conversation had a dramatic fall off. people stopped talking about their insane ideas and started talking about the plain validity of the topic. its it important? this just goes to show the kind of power said people have over us and how much i envy them. besides the point i am often a hypocrite and i enjoy being one. nothing is ever fun unless you can have it both ways.
That's just part of it. The other reason no one has said anything is because there is nothing to be said. The obsidian gets one paragraph of description, period. At least the earring shows up a few more times and might (or might not!) be effecting Vin's magic.
EVERYTHING in the books points towards her earring having a HUGE significance in what she can do. the odds of it being not what is helping is nil to none.
In any case I still stand that it was possibly intended for something big, then neglected, OR it was just being saved for a last minute bit of intuition from Vin.
I agree with your assessment about the earring. I was trying to concede that the point was possible in pricinple. Personally, though, I would be astounded if it didn't mean anything.
I am much less certain about the obsidian. I could go either way on it, but we have almost nothing to go on about it.
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Happyman I agree, I understand that the earring stands a good chance of being more than it is along with the odsidian. I also agree that with the amount of talk about the earring in the books there is a bettrer chance of it being of importance. These things alone do not mean that there is importance. That was the only point i was attempting to make. The earring has already been pivitol to Vin and it again is mentioned at the end of WoA when she reaches and pickes it out of the well. I was only saying that the earring could be important just due to the fact that its metal. it doesnt need anymore story, Vin may use it at an important time as a last ditch peice of metal to accomplish somthing importanct, or it could be more.
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The earring is much more important than it appears. The clues are there, especially when you add in the annotations. EUOL makes sure to mention it in several key scenes. The most important two in my opinion are when she draws on the mist only after the earring is ripped out of her ear by TLR (add in the fact that she has the earring on whenever she tries to draw upon them again and can't), and when Elend notices that the mists are being repelled by her at the end of book 2, which we all know is a telltale sign of Hemallurgy (Inquisitors, Zane). Reen's little block of obsidian, however, gets less than one sentence and is never seen nor heard from again. It could still have some significance, but it would come from out of nowhere.
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The earring is much more important than it appears. The clues are there, especially when you add in the annotations. EUOL makes sure to mention it in several key scenes. The most important two in my opinion are when she draws on the mist only after the earring is ripped out of her ear by TLR (add in the fact that she has the earring on whenever she tries to draw upon them again and can't), and when Elend notices that the mists are being repelled by her at the end of book 2, which we all know is a telltale sign of Hemallurgy (Inquisitors, Zane). Reen's little block of obsidian, however, gets less than one sentence and is never seen nor heard from again. It could still have some significance, but it would come from out of nowhere.
I still think it was something he had a plan for, then it just never happened. Then again remember in Elantris. . the only mentioned like once how the city was laid out until like the very end of the book when suddenly it was important.
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Yes but the chasm is mentioned all the time, along with the fact that Elantrians only come from that area. There are several references to how the powers are tied to the land. The importance of the city's layout would have given the whole ending away if it was mentioned any sooner. Anyway, it would be cool if there is some hidden message or whatnot that is on the obsidian, but I think it's done. Maybe EUOL originally had Vin killing an Inq with it, like poetic justice or something.
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Soory, I was away all week, so I'm backtracking a bit.
Wow you guys have been busy all the way, and Ookla, just so you know, I'm ignoring your posts from now on, they are just too much for me (although I did enjoy you muhahaha). No hard feelings I hope.
Someone mentioned Reen being an allomancer, I don't think he can be, otherwise the inquisitors could have used him to expose Tevidan, the fact that he was an allomancer born of Tevidan's skaa mistress would have been enough to condemn him, that and his uncertainty. But they continued after Vin, thus Reen has no allomancy.
I'm game for thinking he's the mist spirit though ;). Or am I? Maybe I'll just play BOTH SIDES of this one.
Seriously, you guys crack me up, I've missed TWG. And Sarah, your Princess Bride reference (it was Princess Bride wasn't it? I'd feel very stupid if it wasn't.) was hysterical, I loved it. Thank-you for making my day.
Back to the thread's topic (boy has this been a tangent) if it's not important, why does Reen carry it around?? He doesn't seem like the sentimental type, he's rather practical to the extreme, it's Vin who carries pebbles from every city she visits with her, so why would ever pragmatic Reen, carry a mere token with him. I'm grasping a straws, of course, but I think I have a point.
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Soory, I was away all week, so I'm backtracking a bit.
Wow you guys have been busy all the way, and Ookla, just so you know, I'm ignoring your posts from now on, they are just too much for me (although I did enjoy you muhahaha). No hard feelings I hope.
Someone mentioned Reen being an allomancer, I don't think he can be, otherwise the inquisitors could have used him to expose Tevidan, the fact that he was an allomancer born of Tevidan's skaa mistress would have been enough to condemn him, that and his uncertainty. But they continued after Vin, thus Reen has no allomancy.
I'm game for thinking he's the mist spirit though ;). Or am I? Maybe I'll just play BOTH SIDES of this one.
Seriously, you guys crack me up, I've missed TWG. And Sarah, your Princess Bride reference (it was Princess Bride wasn't it? I'd feel very stupid if it wasn't.) was hysterical, I loved it. Thank-you for making my day.
Back to the thread's topic (boy has this been a tangent) if it's not important, why does Reen carry it around?? He doesn't seem like the sentimental type, he's rather practical to the extreme, it's Vin who carries pebbles from every city she visits with her, so why would ever pragmatic Reen, carry a mere token with him. I'm grasping a straws, of course, but I think I have a point.
You may well have a point. Reen knowing something about Allomancy would be interesting. It just seems unlikely that its a magical piece of obsidian when all other magic has focused on metals.
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And Sarah, your Princess Bride reference (it was Princess Bride wasn't it? I'd feel very stupid if it wasn't.) was hysterical, I loved it. Thank-you for making my day.
Princess Bride quotes are always hysterical. It's one of the laws of the universe. However, to give credit where credit is due, VegasDev and Reaves started that particular quote-fest.
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I also agree that Reen MUST have known something about allomancy, otherwise, why would he have kept Vin around? Now before you get all mushy on me. . . he does NOT seem like the type that would let emotions put him in danger.
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I also agree that Reen MUST have known something about allomancy, otherwise, why would he have kept Vin around? Now before you get all mushy on me. . . he does NOT seem like the type that would let emotions put him in danger.
Cannibalism is rather fashionable these days....
No, seriously, you can usually find a use for another person. And if he didn't know about Vin's allomancy, he wouldn't know that she would be putting him in danger. Any problems, he would most likely assume stemmed from him.
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However, to give credit where credit is due, VegasDev and Reaves started that particular quote-fest.
Thank you for the props, SarahG. I'll most likely kill you in the morning.
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I also agree that Reen MUST have known something about allomancy, otherwise, why would he have kept Vin around? Now before you get all mushy on me. . . he does NOT seem like the type that would let emotions put him in danger.
Well, whether it was emotions or something else, keeping the Inquisitors away from Vin was at least important enough to Reen to be worth lying about and thus prolonging his torture. You can call me mushy, but I believe he actually did love her. (And death cannot stop true love, all it can do is delay it for a little while.)
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That's true. Hadn't thought of that.
We'll probably get through all of this to find that Reen isn't actually dead, he's been mostly dead for the last ten years or so.
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Does this mean the the obsidian is both important and unimportant? It has been tough to comment lately. After all, you must use different tactics when theorizing with half a dozen people than when you only have to theorize with one. <passes out>
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I think this is generally leading to people thinking the obsidian has some importanct. It seems that Reen probably wouldn't carry something of no value around for sentimentality. Not that he's incapable he just seems to practical to the point of coldness sometimes. I also agree that in the end Reen loved Vin. I think he beat her and treated her the way he did to prepair her for the type of world he thought she would grow up in. I'm not sure if I beleive that he was aware of her Allomantic abilities but I can beleive that he knew she was special in a way he might not have understood.
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Yeah, but it was HER powers that got them into thieving groups and kept them there for the times they were there. He would have seen her be used as a tool and would have likely tried to figure out WHY she was so useful to the groups, even if he hadn't figured it out at first I think he eventually would have.
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You may well have a point. Reen knowing something about Allomancy would be interesting. It just seems unlikely that its a magical piece of obsidian when all other magic has focused on metals.
well was Reen Vin's full brother? Perhaps were they twins? If so he could easily have been an allomancer as well.
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Ooh, I just thought of something way out there! What if Reen kept it to protect himself against Vin? I bet he knew about her powers, and kept it in case she figured them out and tried to use them against him! Its as good a theory as any. He could have used it to shave for all we know.
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I like it. its simple but would justify him hanging on to it for so long.
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That actually makes the most sense of anything I've heard yet. I like it, darx. He would have wanted to keep Vin around, but wouldn't want her to be a threat, so...
Makes sense.
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Thanks for the reality check. We tend to expound on things to the point that they are completely unbelievable. . . sometimes we all need to be pulled back down to earth.
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sometimes we all need to be pulled back down to earth.
On this particular forum, quite frequently, actually. As mentioned earlier, darx, I actually really like that idea. I've not been so keen on the obsidian having some special significance the whole way through this thread, so I guess it's nice to see someone on the same page as me.
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I doubt that it protected Reen from Vin; he wouldn't have left it with her if that was the case because it would have rendered her helpless. At first glance, I would say that the obsidian isn't noteworthy, I mean how does Reen, a member of a thieving crew, acquire this all important relic let alone Vin not know about it's importance. Then I go back and look at some of these quotes that we posted and it brings up questions about Vin and her family.
a pebble from each city she'd visited, the earring Reen said Vin's mother had given her, and a bit of obsidian the size of a large coin. It was chipped into an irregular pattern - Reen had carried it as some kind of good luck charm. It was the only thing he'd left behind when he'd snuck away from the crew half a year before.
Tevidian was visibly shaking. “I … I think I got them all, my lord. There … there was one I may have been too lax with. I didn’t know she was skaa at first.
First, Vin has traveled to other cities besides Luthadel. I don't get the impression that a thieving crew would travel great distances when Luthadel is ripe for the taking. When Vin first leaves the city with Kelsier it's almost as if it was the first time she had gone outside the walls, except we know by the first quote that she had seen other cities. So that leads me to the conclusion that she had traveled when she was young, probably when her mother was alive because I just can't see Reen traveling alone with a very young Vin.
The second quote, Tevidian says he didn't know she was a skaa at first. Now, he could have been lying to save his life or he could have been telling the truth. If he was telling the truth, how does a Skaa pull off such a trick. We saw what it took for Kelsier and crew to get Vin infiltrated into their society and he had a very large source of funds. How did Vin's mother pull it off?
So we see that Reen and Vin have traveled outside of Luthadel and Vin's mother was able to seduce not just an Obligator, but one that had VERY good bloodlines. Reen walks around with this obsidian like it is his good luck charm and one day leaves it for Vin without ever returning because he was unable to avoid the Inquisitors for the first time. I would think that anything to do with Vin's mother and Reen need to be carefully examined because none of it looks like mere coincidence.
I have alot more to theorize, but I have been up a very long time and we still got a couple months to formulate and reformulate.
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I'm pretty sure Reen and Vin moved around after escaping their mother because he was avoiding the Inquisitors. It's true Luthadel is very good for thieving crews, but it also happens to be the home of The Lord Ruler and his Inquisitors.
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After reading the quote in Vegasdev's post, I realized that I missed something. I had it in my head that he piece of obsidian was shaped into a sharp object, but it says that it was shaped in an irregular pattern. Now I want to know exactly what it looks like. I am now imagining it as some sort of medallion. Don't get me wrong, I am still not convinced that it is of any real significance, but I am no longer writing it off, either.
I disagree that Reen and Vin didn't move around a lot. When Vin says she is seeing the world outside Luthadel for the first time, it is because she is burning Tin, and is not on the run. She mentions that every time she moved with Reen it was at night, and normal people can't see anything at night. Plus they were just going from safehouse to safehouse, with no time to appreciate the surroundings. It's just pointing out her first real taste of freedom, I think.
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Don't get me wrong, I am still not convinced that it is of any real significance, but I am no longer writing it off, either.
Plus they were just going from safehouse to safehouse, with no time to appreciate the surroundings. It's just pointing out her first real taste of freedom, I think.
I agree on both counts.
I am a bit sketchy on the first one however. I mean, if had been important wouldn't it have actually described the pattern instead of just saying it had one?
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I disagree that Reen and Vin didn't move around a lot. When Vin says she is seeing the world outside Luthadel for the first time, it is because she is burning Tin, and is not on the run. She mentions that every time she moved with Reen it was at night, and normal people can't see anything at night. Plus they were just going from safehouse to safehouse, with no time to appreciate the surroundings. It's just pointing out her first real taste of freedom, I think.
The constant movement from city to city had been Reen’s choice; he had been obsessive about never getting locked down. He usually got them places on canal boats run by underground crews, never staying in one place for more than a year. He had kept moving, always going. As if running from something.
From this quote, you are right that they did travel alot, although they didn't do it at night (at least not between cities) because prior to this quote, she was amazed that they (Kelsier and her) were going outside the city at night.
However it doesn't change the tone of my post. Vin's mother was somehow able to seduce a very high ranking obligator for reasons of her own. From this quote, we can deduce that Reen was avoiding the Inquisitors and able to pull this off for years until one day he leaves his obsidian behind and is caught by them. These aren't minor coincidences, both had obvious motivations, we just don't know what they were. Now I'm not saying that the obsidian is important, I'm just saying that anything to do with either Vin's mother or Reen cannot be discarded offhand when they both had large roles in shaping Vin's creation and survival.
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So, VegasDev, are you saying that you think that the obsidian is some sort of...anti-inquisitor charm? That makes sense, I guess. I, like Darx, was assuming that the obsidian was sharp, so I'm not really sure what I think at the moment.
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I don't really think the obsidian has any special or magical qualities of its own. Everything having to do with magic in these books are metal. I am more interested in where he got it and what the symbols or carvings mean.
To me, Reen seems like a very down-to-earth person. He is not wasting his time carving meaningless symbols into a black rock; he is busy ripping off nobles. He must have got it somewhere....and where does obsidian come from? Ashmounts...
just some random thoughts.
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I assume Ashmounts are semi-active Volcanos and if this is true than obsidian is created by volcanos. Maybe the obsidian is in someway connected to the ashmounts. The ashmounts being volcanos and producing obsidian would explain the abundance of obsidian in the books so far. I wonder if there is a connection between Reen, Vin and the Ashmounts? Trust me I'm aware I am streching this farther and farther now seeing how I am inclined to beleive more along the lines of a simple explination for the obsidian but there is a possability.
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I'm not saying that the obsidian is an inquisitor repellant or anything like that.
It's possible that he only left it for Vin to remember him by. However, when I take into account the lengths Vin's mother went through to give birth to and bestow power upon her, as well as the lengths Reen went to keep her out of the ever searching Inquisitors eyes, I have to wonder about it's importance when he leaves his good luck charm behind.
Heck, it's possible that it is a doubloon and if she lines it up with the lighthouse, the rock and the restaurant she will find the atium supply. Or maybe the markings are cryptovariables for analyzing old texts. Who knows. It may be something or nothing at all.
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First of all your my hero for that reference. That was amazing. Second I think this is such a wide ranged topic due to its lack of information. We know nothing about this peice of obsidian so it could very well be a "Dabloon" as you say. It could have something to do with Inq's or Ruin. thats the fun
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Thanks for the clarification, VegasDev.
I personally believe that the obsidian has no special properties, Reen just kept it as a sort of good luck charm.
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I agree that it probably had no magical properties (three magic systems, and two almost dieties are enought I think), but that doesn't mean it isn't important. Why did Reen leave it behind that day? He took everything else he owned with him. This gets me thinking: Reen knew he was about to be caught. He knew the inquisitors were close to catching him, so early one morning, he takes all his things, and leaves, making Vin think he abandoned her. This was either to teach her a lesson, or so that she wouldn't go looking for him, or try to seek revenge or something like that. So Reen marches off, meets his death, swears Vin is dead, and dies. Vin thinks he is vanished and is long gone because he took all his things, gives up hope of ever finding him, and just contents herself to stay with Camon. But Reen left one thing behind. A piece of Obsidian with strange markings, for Vin. These strange markings are they simply a different language perhaps? What would happen if Vin showed the obsidian to Sazed I wonder. Does Vin ever mention some of the things she sees in other languages is framiliar?
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This hadn't fallen off page one so I thought I would add to this topic. I've gone past this quote in several threads, book rereads etc. but never thought anything of it. I just happened to be thinking of this thread when I ran across it again and this stuck out.
You could say that circumstances forced me to leave my home behind—certainly, if I had stayed, I would now be dead. During those days—running without knowing why, carrying a burden I didn’t understand—I assumed that I would lose myself in Khlennium and seek a life of indistinction. I am slowly coming to understand that anonymity, like so many other things, has already been lost to me forever.
Probably means nothing, but it just sounded very much like Reen to me.
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This hadn't fallen off page one so I thought I would add to this topic. I've gone past this quote in several threads, book rereads etc. but never thought anything of it. I just happened to be thinking of this thread when I ran across it again and this stuck out.
You could say that circumstances forced me to leave my home behind—certainly, if I had stayed, I would now be dead. During those days—running without knowing why, carrying a burden I didn’t understand—I assumed that I would lose myself in Khlennium and seek a life of indistinction. I am slowly coming to understand that anonymity, like so many other things, has already been lost to me forever.
Probably means nothing, but it just sounded very much like Reen to me.
But it wasn't Reen. . . o.O
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I wasn't saying it was Reen, because it obviously wasn't. In this quote Alendi was running but didn't know why (turns out it might have been death), carrying a burden he didn't understand, long before he met Kwaan and matched the prophecy.
What I was saying is that the behavior was like Reen, who always kept them (Reen and Vin) running from the Inquisitors that he probably didn't even know were looking for them.
As I said, the quote probably doesn't mean anything in regards to Reens obsidian, I was just pointing out that his behavior matched that of Alendi. Fleeing to another city without knowing why doesn't seem to be normal behavior, but in both cases huge events followed.
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Oh I see. I misread what you were saying. ha ha.
I still think there was a reason he left it though.
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I still think there was a reason he left it though.[/color]
I do too. It may be something as simple as just a reminder to Vin or it may be that it is important. Perhaps it is something that told Alendi when to move on and Reen somehow got ahold of it. Maybe Ruin talks through metal spikes in people's bodies but preservation speaks through that particular piece of obsidian. Just extra theories while we wait. ;)
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There is also the possibility that it was initially intended to be something important but then wasn't.
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So, Reen is actually Alendi...and Vin has pieces of obsidian all over inside of her, put there by Reen (Alendi) so that preservation can control her and she can become the hero of ages, except his plan doesn't work, because Ruin uses Vin's mom to give vin hemalurgy. The secret to allomancy is also to have high concentrations of obsidian in your body.
I like it.
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So, Reen is actually Alendi...and Vin has pieces of obsidian all over inside of her, put there by Reen (Alendi) so that preservation can control her and she can become the hero of ages, except his plan doesn't work, because Ruin uses Vin's mom to give vin hemalurgy. The secret to allomancy is also to have high concentrations of obsidian in your body.
I like it.
lol sounds painful.
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That was pretty intense. . . but I don't buy it.
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I don't either but I like the find though, and you are right it does sound like Reen, however perhaps the burden was "on his arms"
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lol i was kinda assuming it was a joke...
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Yeah...maybe I need to work on adding emoticons in such a way as to better express my sarcasm........
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The [/sarcasm] tag is always wonderful. ha ha.
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I like to chose the :D smiley myself but that's just me.
So Reen's obsidian... I still think it's some sort of code or something, that holds an important bit of info but that's just me, perhaps it's what the Alendi's birthmark looked like? Who knows. Just random thoughts. Maybe the "random patterns," change somehow, altered by Preservation and show the future.
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That sounds pretty plausible, but I think it would have been mentioned AT LEAST one other time if it was something that extreme.
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Early in this thread it is surmised that Obsidian is likely as fragile as other forms of glass. This is certainly not true. Recalling the Wiki description, it is extrusive igneous rock. As silicon oxide becomes glass when melted, the source rock for obsidian turns to the glass form. But it is volcanic glass, and it's source material has far stronger a crystalline structure than silicon. Obsidian is extremely hard, and difficult to break. This is precisely why the inquisitors use it for their axes, they are strong, sharp, and non-metallic, therefore immune to allomantic pulling/pushing. Obsidian is used for weaponry and certain armor components in many fantasy stories, and indeed in historical cases as well.
The hardness and strength of obsidian could lead one to wonder about the "chipped into an irregular pattern" and such from Reen's bit of obsidian, but I've noted that a few folks have inadvertently translated "irregular pattern" as "strange design", or "unusual symbols". Beware the random misinterpretation, it will surely lead you astray. I think that when Brandon says "irregular pattern", that's all he means. It was simply an oddly shaped piece of a not terribly common volcanic rock. Something Vin would certainly hold onto after Reen's disappearance.
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OK look, I'm tired of the obsidian or glass being stronger. According to Mohs Sale we have:
window glass, 5.5;
obsidian, ~5-5.5;
SO depending on the obsidian it is either a bit weaker or the same strength as glass when it comes to hardness.
However, obsidian is MUCH MUCH MUCH sharper than glass could ever hope to be. MOST LIKELY the reason they use obsidian is because it is freaking sharp as hell.
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Just because it is the same hardness, does that mean that it has the same fragility as well. I am sort of out of my element in this area, but I don't think it matters too much.
And Accident, the reason some of us think that the obsidian is special, is because it belonged to Reen, who is by all accounts a very practical fellow, who wouldn't seem the kind who would carry around a good luck charm, but he does, and on the day he is taken by the inquisitors, he takes EVERYTHING he owns with him EXCEPT for the obsidian. Unless he was expecting to leave or be caught, why take everything with you and leave the obsidian behind. I have made my theory clear in a previous post, so I won't reiterate.
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The fragility, as coma put it, would be determined more by the strength of the bonds between atoms, which depends on structure, so it could theoretically be stronger...but it doesn't matter. This thread is about the significance of REEN's obsidian, not the uses of obsidian in general. Wow. I just got angry over a thread-jacking. That's like the first time ever. Anyway, I still don't think the obsidian has any significance.
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Then tell me, why did Reen have it in the first place, and then subsequently leave it behind? Hmmm?
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Why does my little brother pick up rocks all the time, carry them with him for a while, then subsequently leave them behind? It looks cool?
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Ah, but your little brother and Reen are entirely different individuals:
1. Your little brother is little, and thus prone to pick up many different sorts of random things. Most likely he discards these things as soon as he loses interest. Reen is not little, and he hold on to this bit of Obsidian for a long while.
2. Reen is very practical, and would not pick up something because it looked cool, and certainly would not keep something that wasn't in some way useful.
3. You still haven't answered why he just happened to leave it behind, when he took ALL of his other belongings the day he was captured.
Your move Andrew.
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[takes Andrew's move] Maybe he had a hole in his pocket and couldn't carry it with him that day? :P Remember that our only knowledge of Reen comes from Vin. We can't be sure what type of person he was based just on the perspective of his battered sister. We know he refused to give her up, but we don't know anything else about him. This is all speculation, and while fun to do, we shouldn't take any theories too seriously, yet.
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Touche
You are of course, correct. But you haven't disproved my theory, only shown that there is a possibility for wrongness. I still think there is something to that obsidian.
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OK look, I'm tired of the obsidian or glass being stronger. According to Mohs Sale we have:
window glass, 5.5;
obsidian, ~5-5.5;
SO depending on the obsidian it is either a bit weaker or the same strength as glass when it comes to hardness.
Hardness and strength are independent attributes of a material. I stand corrected in referring to superior hardness. Still, an axe made of glass would be foolish, as it would shatter on impact with just about any metal. Not so obsidian, it is indeed much stronger than silicon-based forms of glass.
I never said Reen's piece of obsidian wasn't of any significance or value. The only point I made was that some folks began to theorize based on believing that the "irregular pattern" it was chipped into really meant "unusual symbols" or "strange designs". Its a common trick of the mind to wander off what you really read to what you'd like to have read, and it can lead you astray. On the other hand, nearly two complete books later and no following word about the item leaves me doubtful. Vin's earring? Yeah, I'm waiting to learn it's true importance, because it is visible too often in the text not to mean something more than we know now.
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*Takes move even though darx already stole it*
1) My little brother is 5, so you have a point. That being said, he doesn't do this with just anything. It's only cool-looking rocks. He leaves them behind when he finds cooler looking ones. So maybe Reen just found a cooler piece of obsidian?
2) Maybe it had some sort of sentimental value? Perhaps it was his mom's (who from what we know of her would pick up something because it looked cool) and he took it to remember her? Or something like that?
3) He found a cooler piece of obsidian. Or he lost this one through a hole in his pocket. Which would explain why he never told the inquisitors about Vin. He was too distraught over the loss of his obsidian.
And ]Accident[, I think the reason we all perceive the irregular pattern to be more than we're told is because it's a irregular pattern. Which implies that it is some sort of design, though true, does not straight out say it.
Anyway, I still think that the obsidian is insignificant.
*[/move]*
Your turn, Coma.
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Okay. You're still missing point number 2. Reen is (well I guess I can only say 'seems' after darxbane's post) extremely practical, and sentimentality does not seem to be one of his strongest attributes. I also extremely dislike this whole "hole in pocket business.' That doesn't mean it's not correct so perhaps you have a point there. But if it was so important to him (or if he had a 'sentimental,' bond to it, wouldn't he be more careful with it? Careful enought not to place it in a holey pocket. I'm afraid of losing small things in pockets without holes. And if there was indeed a hole in his pocket, why was this the only thing left behind?
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why was this the only thing left behind?
He found a cooler piece of obsidian.
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That is hardly a logical explanation. He's not five you know. :P I'm also assuming there isn't a bunch of obsidian just lying around here. Where did he get the first piece, and where would he get another one? Probably not from the same place, seeing as how they moved around so much. He might have gotten it from his mother or something, but I seriously doubt he just found a 'cooler,' piece of obsidian lying around. Got anything better?
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Frankly, we have no real reason to believe the obsidian has special properties. It could just be a 'good luck charm.' Since obsidian = volcanic glass, and ashmounts = active volcanoes, the assumption that there isn't much obsidian lying around is not necessarily a good one to make.
And do we actually know that Reen had anything else that he took with him? I don't recall. And even if he did, it's entirely possible that he was leaving in a rush (being chased by Inquisitors and all) and just grabbed for his possessions and missed the obsidian. I don't see any reason to believe it's significant.
Here are our options.
Insignificant obsidian - enough said.
Significant obsidian - What the heck does it do? Is it like a super duper Ruin-reducing device? Anti-inquisitor charm? All in all, it isn't necessary for the obsidian to be significant. If I am wrong, you can laugh at me and say I told you so. However, until then, this is my stance.
Besides, Reen was 5 once. And if I have a pencil and I see a cooler pencil obviously lost and abandoned, what am I going to do? So, if Reen has cool piece of obsidian and sees a cooler one...
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But Reen was going from city to city, I doubt he'd just take a trip out to one of the Ashmounts in order to find some random piece of obsidian. And when Vin is looking through her box she sees the obsidian and says it was the ONLY thing he didn't take with him when he left. Reen needed to take everything with him, otherwise it wouldn't look like he abandoned Vin, and she might come looking for him and get caught by the inquisitors. I don't think the obisidian is magical, I just think it's important. Perhaps there IS a code in the irregualar pattern or maybe it's some sort of key. Who knows. I just think it's important. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, since I can't prove it's important, and you can't PROVE it isn't.
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I think we shall have to agree to disagree as well. The only thing I'm still going to make a point on is that the ashmounts could likely quite easily have gotten obsidian out to some point nearer the cities. Even volcanoes that aren't very explosive can launch rock quite a ways, and there's ash falling almost constantly. For there to be that much ash, it follows that there would be a decent amount of obsidian around. Not necessarily common, true, but not necessarily scarce, either.
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I also agree we should agree to disagree (as I said before), but I also have one more thing to say (uh-oh, I see where this is going). From my understanding, Obsidian is a sort of volcanic glass, and someone with more scientific knowledge can correct me here, but I don't think obsidian is included in the rock and things that are launched out of volcanoes. And these volcanoes are a ways away from Luthadel. You can only see one in the distance I don't think theyare that common in cities. But this is getting into a debat of the likelihood of finding obsidian in Luthadel, so I digress.
A quick question that occured to me though while typing. Are there ashfalls in all parts of the empire? Or just the central dominance. IF so, how does the ash travel everywhere, when the ashmounts are all near the center. The winds would carry it fairly far, but still. Wouldn't the corners of the empire be relatively ash free?
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That's a good question. (By the way, I agree to stop talking about the likelihood of finding obsidian if you will) You're right, it makes sense that there wouldn't be ashfalls elsewhere in the empire.
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Well a really big volcano can affect weather patterns across half the US for months, so i don't think its too hard to believe the ash gets spread everywhere.
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Yes, but the point is, the ash seems to be everywhere about evenly; it seems like it would at least be heavier some places than others.
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well we don't have a whole lot of places to choose from. Most of the story takes place in Luthadel. We do have the cave systems, the atium mine, and the little town where Elend saves the villlagers in MB3. Oh yeah and we have Sazed travelling around and thats about it.
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We also have the plantation where Kelsier kills Lord Tresting, and we know that there's lots of ash there, because not only is it falling from the sky, but that's the main work of the skaa, to push the ash away from the plants. Tresting's manor is several days north of Luthadel.
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several days by canal, horse, carriage or foot?
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Doesn't say. Here's the quote.
MB 1, p. 21
He was annoyed about something - something more than just Vin. Perhaps he had heard about the skaa rebellion several days to the north. One of the provincial lords, Themos Tresting, had apparently been murdered, his manor burned to the ground. Such disturbances were bad for business; they made the aristocracy more alert, and less gullible. That, in turn, could cut seriously into Camon's profits.
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In the sample chapter in the back of MB1 (that's right, I was in mcnally's today), (POSSIBLE SPOILERS AHEAD FOR THE SAMPLE CHAPTER) Spook is in Urteau, and I think the ash is the same there, although it's hard to tell because it's at night with the mist and such.
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I was just noticing that this thread for a while goes like this:
Andrew
Coma
Andrew
Coma
Andrew
Coma
Andrew
Coma
Followed Shortly by
Reaves
Sarah
Reaves
Sarah
Reaves
Sarah
Just found that amusing.
And I think ashfalls are fairly heavy all over the empire, though we have mostly seen Luthadel. But that does raise the question of why.
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lol well i just got back from vacation so im a twg spree
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I was just noticing that this thread for a while goes like this:
Andrew
Coma
Andrew
Coma
Andrew
Coma
Andrew
Coma
Followed Shortly by
Reaves
Sarah
Reaves
Sarah
Reaves
Sarah
Just found that amusing.
And I think ashfalls are fairly heavy all over the empire, though we have mostly seen Luthadel. But that does raise the question of why.
there is not nearly enough chaos in that equation. I miss that guy!
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The reason for me not posting in this topic is less "I wasn't able to access the internet the past week" and more "I think this topic is silly." I just don't post here because I find the whole notion of the obsidian being important... silly.
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Perhaps it will play an emotional role in the third book rather than a mystical one.
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Obsidian being volcanically created, thus coming (one would assume) from the Ashmounts... but weren't the Ashmounts created by TLR at some point? We could theorize these Ashmounts held some sort of power, being made from such a ... powerful entity. Who's to say shards of hardened volcanic-innards don't carry some transient power?
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The only problem being, it wouldn't fit into any of the magic systems. Nope-nope it certainly would not.
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Yeah and nobody still has a firm grasp on the complexities of the magic systems, yet, so why so quick to dismiss? ;)
Furthermore I did not say it had to be part of a magic system, only that it could potentially hold some power - a particularly general, vague and sweeping statement. Don't try to box it down into a tiny little idea, ne?
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Any type of "power" has to come from somewhere. Thus, it would need to come from "magic", whether it causes the magic or was created by the magic.
The problem with obsidian is it breaks the main rule of the system; it's not a metal.
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It was, albeit indirectly, created by TLR. You don't think the taint of magic can leave a footprint?
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I'm just saying it would be a like throwing a wrench between perfectly functional cogs. There has yet to be any sign that the Magic can affect anything other than metal. Aside from what we see Ruin do with the rubbing and writing, but even that, depending on the medium used, could be from metal. (i.e. Lead used for the rubbing and iron based ink for writing.)
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You think a glass-shard formed from something burning deep within the earth doesn't contain metal?
Pure obsidian is usually dark in appearance, though the color varies depending on the presence of impurities. Iron and magnesium typically give the obsidian a dark green to brown to black color.
;)
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-Opens mouth and raises finger to make a point then says nothing.-
Uh, I didn't know that. ;D I learned something new today. ha ha.
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Uh, I didn't know that. ;D I learned something new today. ha ha. [/color]
Me too. However, I think your main point still holds, because I don't think EUOL knew that either. If he was aware that obsidian often contains metals, then why would that be the anti-Allomantic weapon of choice? And why would none of the battle scenes involve people pushing or pulling on the obsidian axes? It seems to me that obsidian, in the Mistborn world, is essentially metal-free.
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We know that Inquisitors can see based on trace metals in non-metal objects, but can they push or pull on them? I can't remember, did the Lord Ruler pull on Vin's trace metals during their fight? The trace metals in obsidian are probably also difficult to pull/push on.
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We know that Inquisitors can see based on trace metals in non-metal objects, but can they push or pull on them? I can't remember, did the Lord Ruler pull on Vin's trace metals during their fight? The trace metals in obsidian are probably also difficult to pull/push on.
I think, during the fight, two things happened that shed some light on this:
1) TLR pushed on the metals inside Vin's body. This took a *lot* of strength.
2) TLR managed to push the *glass on the floor*, but barely.
Thus we know TLR could push on the metals in generic glass. He could probably also push on the metals in obsidian. However I don't think there is any indicator that this a matter of anything besides TLR having crazy-strong allomantic strength, and I doubt we've seen any other character strong enough to duplicate the feat. In general it seems likely that obsidian is not unusually responsive to allomancy.
It was, albeit indirectly, created by TLR. You don't think the taint of magic can leave a footprint?
No, we generally do not. The magic in this world follows specific rules. We don't know all of them, but every last one that we have seen, every last one that has ever been found, *including the examples listed above* all involve metals, and only metals. Not only that, but trace metals play only the smallest part in the system and seem very unlikely to get involved unless crazy-strong allomancers get involved. Even if they do, it will still be the metal that is special.
In addition, none of these powers leave "footprints" in the usual sense of the word. Once pushing or pulling (physical or emotional) is done, the item (person) moves on its new trajectory following the "non-magical" laws of physics; it has been changed, but the change does not continue; there is no allomantic radiation given off, or any continuing magical change. I've heard rumors that internal pushing and pulling might leave permanent scars, but that's probably more like bending metal with a pull and leaving it be; there is no trace of pulling left over after, just the bent metal (or person).
What you don't seem to understand is that we don't expect EUOL to change the rules midstream. We expect the final picture to make sense in terms consistent with what we already know. You could keep saying things along the lines of "Prove that obsidian can't have magic powers!" and we won't have a final answer for you until we actually read the last book. That doesn't mean that our answers aren't sufficient; we logically cannot prove a negative. We just have to give reasons to think the negative is unfruitful and why we choose to ignore it. Your protests to the contrary aren't swaying anybody; they're just ticking us off, largely because they aren't really adding anything to the debate.
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Where is metal involved in the Mist Spirit tearing off the corners of pages? Or in Ruin altering the text of written pages?
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Where is metal involved in the Mist Spirit tearing off the corners of pages? Or in Ruin altering the text of written pages?
Ooh, ooh, an Ookla-clue! Now we know that Ruin altered the text, but the Mist Spirit tore the pages! I wasn't sure till now who did what in that situation.
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Ooh, ooh, an Ookla-clue! Now we know that Ruin altered the text, but the Mist Spirit tore the pages! I wasn't sure till now who did what in that situation.
Somewhere, Ookla sits in front of his computer screen with fingertips touching in an arch, an evil grin on his face and a mild chuckle escaping his lips. 'Excellllllent.....take the bait my pretties.'
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Move along... Nothing to see here...
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No, we generally do not. The magic in this world follows specific rules. We don't know all of them, but every last one that we have seen, every last one that has ever been found, *including the examples listed above* all involve metals, and only metals. Not only that, but trace metals play only the smallest part in the system and seem very unlikely to get involved unless crazy-strong allomancers get involved. Even if they do, it will still be the metal that is special.
In addition, none of these powers leave "footprints" in the usual sense of the word. Once pushing or pulling (physical or emotional) is done, the item (person) moves on its new trajectory following the "non-magical" laws of physics; it has been changed, but the change does not continue; there is no allomantic radiation given off, or any continuing magical change. I've heard rumors that internal pushing and pulling might leave permanent scars, but that's probably more like bending metal with a pull and leaving it be; there is no trace of pulling left over after, just the bent metal (or person).
What you don't seem to understand is that we don't expect EUOL to change the rules midstream. We expect the final picture to make sense in terms consistent with what we already know. You could keep saying things along the lines of "Prove that obsidian can't have magic powers!" and we won't have a final answer for you until we actually read the last book. That doesn't mean that our answers aren't sufficient; we logically cannot prove a negative. We just have to give reasons to think the negative is unfruitful and why we choose to ignore it. Your protests to the contrary aren't swaying anybody; they're just ticking us off, largely because they aren't really adding anything to the debate.
okay happyman, when did you read about the powers TLR acquired presumably from WoA? It's not in the two books, but you certainly know exactly how it happened and what traces of magic don't exist. Also, just because something isn't making itself readily apparent doesn't mean it isn't so - Mr. Sanderson likely has a better imagination than you & I so get off your dilly and use your brain. He hasn't forced everything into a petite little present for you just yet, so wait and see what other surprises he might have before mucking with a valid metal comment.
If the Ashmounts have anything at all to do with anything then I can almost assure you he was quite aware of what obsidian was made of.
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Move along... Nothing to see here...
these aren't the droids you're looking for... :D
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No, we generally do not. The magic in this world follows specific rules. We don't know all of them, but every last one that we have seen, every last one that has ever been found, *including the examples listed above* all involve metals, and only metals. Not only that, but trace metals play only the smallest part in the system and seem very unlikely to get involved unless crazy-strong allomancers get involved. Even if they do, it will still be the metal that is special.
In addition, none of these powers leave "footprints" in the usual sense of the word. Once pushing or pulling (physical or emotional) is done, the item (person) moves on its new trajectory following the "non-magical" laws of physics; it has been changed, but the change does not continue; there is no allomantic radiation given off, or any continuing magical change. I've heard rumors that internal pushing and pulling might leave permanent scars, but that's probably more like bending metal with a pull and leaving it be; there is no trace of pulling left over after, just the bent metal (or person).
What you don't seem to understand is that we don't expect EUOL to change the rules midstream. We expect the final picture to make sense in terms consistent with what we already know. You could keep saying things along the lines of "Prove that obsidian can't have magic powers!" and we won't have a final answer for you until we actually read the last book. That doesn't mean that our answers aren't sufficient; we logically cannot prove a negative. We just have to give reasons to think the negative is unfruitful and why we choose to ignore it. Your protests to the contrary aren't swaying anybody; they're just ticking us off, largely because they aren't really adding anything to the debate.
okay happyman, when did you read about the powers TLR acquired presumably from WoA? It's not in the two books, but you certainly know exactly how it happened and what traces of magic don't exist. Also, just because something isn't making itself readily apparent doesn't mean it isn't so - Mr. Sanderson likely has a better imagination than you & I so get off your dilly and use your brain. He hasn't forced everything into a petite little present for you just yet, so wait and see what other surprises he might have before mucking with a valid metal comment.
If the Ashmounts have anything at all to do with anything then I can almost assure you he was quite aware of what obsidian was made of.
I can't prove negatives. I can only say "I think that's likely" and "I don't think that's likely". And I'm sorry I got you riled up; perhaps I was a bit harsher than intended.
However, Ookla has made a good point. There are more powers in the world than we are aware of, and presumably the obsidian could be involved in those somehow. In fact, the power in the well apparently didn't focus on metal either, so I retract some of the more extreme comments I made.
Unfortunately, when we allow these kinds of speculations in, the field is wide open. The obsidian could be...anything. It could be the place preservation is hiding. It could be the focus for killing the inquisitors. It could magically open the door to the ashmounts so we can get to the lake where the last treasure is kept. That's the problem; when we go beyond what has been seen, the world is wide open. We can use imagination all we want, and as creatively as we want, but nobody will be able to argue for any one of the choices in any coherent way. Certainly not with the extremely limited screen time the obsidian has had.
As things stand, "nothing" is still the most coherent thing the obsidian does.
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Just thought I'd point out that in the Ruin and Preservation thread we talked quite a bit about who did the tearing and who changed the writings, and the theory that Ookla just (semi-)confirmed just supported what we had already. (Though I admit I still thought it was Ruin who did the original page-tearing.) I think that this is one of the problems of all of our theorizing, is that we have so much information and no way to easily categorize it if we need to check the current theories on any one topic.
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The Mist Spirit can use Allomancy from what we see, but it is also a Spirit potentially able to do other things physically without having to use magic. As far as editing the texts, a VERY acute ability to push/pull and affects the iron used in the ink.
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But the changes were first made to Sazed's charcoal rubbing, which was basically just carbon, right?
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Were they charcoal rubbings? I remember them being lead. . . but then again this is just from random memory, nothing too defined there.
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Really? I definitely don't remember that. Will have to look it up.
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Just thought I'd point out that in the Ruin and Preservation thread we talked quite a bit about who did the tearing and who changed the writings, and the theory that Ookla just (semi-)confirmed just supported what we had already. (Though I admit I still thought it was Ruin who did the original page-tearing.) I think that this is one of the problems of all of our theorizing, is that we have so much information and no way to easily categorize it if we need to check the current theories on any one topic.
Actually, I always thought it was the mist spirit that cut the pages. I thought it was trying to tell Sazed that something was wrong with the manuscript. (After all, it cut the most false part out, the part that absolutely had to be corrected. And Sazed's response was to become more suspicious of the document.) The mist spirit seems to be awfully limited in what it can do, and this seemed to be as good a way as any that was available to it.
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The key, I believe, is that while Allomancy's power is based upon metals, its EFFECTS don't have to be about metal. Sure, pushing and pulling do, but pewter enhances your body, and I highly doubt that it does this by affecting metals. It's even less likely in one like tin, and emotional Allomancy? That's about the furthest possible thing from a metal as possible, the abstract thing called emotions.
All of Feruchemy is storing decidedly non-metal attributes.
Hemalurgy is metallic because we place gigantic spikes inside of someone, not necessarily that it directly affects metals.
Now, I have no idea how Ruin and Preservation exert their will (methinks it involves the mists and how it relates to the magic systems, somehow) and whether its Allomancy or not. It's far beyond Allomancy, so I believe this is above the three magic systems in some manner, or a distinct application that has not been envisioned yet (again, the mists are very mysterious in this matter. We don't know how they operate, much in the same way as we don't know how R&P work. We know that Ruin and Preservation are intertwined with the magics somehow, and we know the mists are as well. The thing we don't know is why.)
As things stand, "nothing" is still the most coherent thing the obsidian does.
Quite right.
On the other hand...
It could magically open the door to the ashmounts so we can get to the lake where the last treasure is kept.
I am not opposed to primary villains being thrown into lava, lava in the scene of a battle, or Vin falling into the lava and the real Hero of Ages, Emperor Palpatine, comes into play and saves Vin by turning her into Darth Vader.
Anything with lava, really.
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The rubbing was made with charcoal. However, I doubt it was pure charcoal. I am sure there was some trace metal in it, as well as in the parchment used in the rubbing.
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Maybe there was lava in it.
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Maybe there was lava in it.
Now we're getting somewhere.
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i never dismiss any small detail, im going to look more into this...reen must have been a remarkable person given that he never broke when the inquistors torchered him, and we know that kelsier thought Marsh, when he persumably found him lying dead on the floor, would have not been able to....so he is not a character to dismiss, and since he is supposedly dead this piece of obsidion is all thats left to consider...this is not coming out as clear as i would like...let me start again. ehm. Reen is a very important figure, or concious in Vin's head...he seems to have done what very few can(bearing the inquistors torcher) and by default we can assume he loved Vin though he never mentioned it once to her....he and his obsidion piece are no small detail...but i guess we will find out come the fourteenth of october! Umm, if you guys havent already, to kill time, and so you dont loose your minds waiting, here are a few books like, or as good as the Mistborn trilogy....enjoy!
The Name Of The Wind--Patrick Rothfuss
The Eye Of Heaven--David Keck
and for a more satirical approach, Goblin Quest--Jim C. Hines
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The Name Of The Wind--Patrick Rothfuss
Whereas you weren't directly speaking to me you are probably the fourth person this week to recommend Rothfuss to me.
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Have you not read name of the wind yet? I've stopped recommending that one on fantasy forums just because I thought everyone had read it. Anyway, if you haven't read it, it's a good read.
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I've never read ANY Rothfuss
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If you havent read It you havent read any actually...its his debut novel. lol. Read it, take the hint that the book gods have obviously given you....if it sucks, or you dont enjoy it at all i promise, you can elbow me in the neck....wat do you say?
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Well, I've never even heard of Rothfuss before, does that make me a sinner?
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Patrick is cool. I met him at Worldcon. Brandon got to have lunch with him though.
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yes. you are a sinner >:(. go read that Book and you will return to the path of righteousness. Did i spell that right?
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I've never read him ready, but I'm also very picky with my books.
Lava? Come on you guys (Allthough it would be cool to see a fight scene in one of the ashmounts!)