Timewaster's Guide Archive

Thanks so much for posting the comparison document between drafts one and two.  It's fascinating to see this process in action: it's one thing to hear "don't worry about X, Y or Z in the first draft, you'll have the chance to fix them in later drafts" and another to actually see that happen.  I'm as critical of my own writing as I must seem to be here; I think I'm an editor by mindset, but I enjoy the act of writing too much to be an editor.  I write very slowly, always trying to make the first draft perfect...it's something I'm trying to cure myself of, and your courage in posting this helps enormously.  I know you and your publisher had some initial concerns about what posting chapters online would do to the novel's eventual sales when it reaches print, but know that I at least will definitely be buying it, to see the final result of all the drafts and editorial work as compared to the first draft.

Anyway, catching up with reading the chapters:

I really liked Vivenna in Chapter 32; she's been such a controlled character, it makes her much more human and sympathetic when all her thoughts and emotions start to boil over.  I also thought it was neat how you had Vivenna decide to use her Breaths, and then fail in the attempt: choice without benefit, in contrast to the scene where she acquires them, which was benefit without choice.

I also really liked Dust, the storyteller in Chapter 33, and his multimedia method of storytelling.  Very imaginative!  (I'm imagining though the pile of debris he must leave in his wake, there's some untapped potential for humor there at the end of the chapter.)  The we-storytellers-know-the-truth-about-the-God Kings explanation works as far as Siri's ignorance but sidesteps the larger question of why nobody else has noticed (scholars in Idris, Llarimar or Lightsong in previous chapters, etc.) and told her.  Some alternate ideas: a) what if everybody knew about this but Siri, simply because she hadn't paid attention to tutors; or b) what if, as I hinted at suggesting before, the sacrifice of the God Kings after an heir is born is part of the religion, something Susebron had been indoctrinated for by the priests from a young age.  I don't know if either of those actually work with the story, with what you have planned for Susebron, but the explanation presented in this chapter still feels a little forced to me and somewhat dilutes the main surprise of the chapter, that the Idris royalty is descended from the First Returned.

I confess, even after this chapter I'm still confused (perhaps even more-so) about who was fighting who in the Manywar.  Were the Five Scholars all within Hanald, or were they spread out among other nations?  This chapter also makes me a bit confused about Austre.  If the Five Visions date to the start of Hanald, was Austre worshiped there, in the merchant nation based on colorful dyes?

MattD

I agree, a nice chapter.  The characters are showing an interest in the mysteries you're using to keep us readers interested, which makes me "connect" with the characters more strongly.

MattD

That was a really good chapter.  I liked the dialogue, Vivenna's thoughts all seemed interesting and focused, and there were small subtle developments on many fronts.  I loved the line "It had blood in it.  That makes it a good metaphor." -- in fact, I think I'm going to add it to my signature.

My only criticism here is that there are a few times Denth mentions something mysterious and Vivenna doesn't call him on it.  Denth mentions Vasher and Vivenna doesn't ask, "just who is Vasher?"  Denth mentions Jewels not being interested in Peprin because she has someone else, and Vivenna doesn't ask about that.  In these cases, where there's no reason for Vivenna not to ask these things, I as the Reader am far too aware that you as the Author are holding things back from me.  It jerks me out of the story as a living thing that I'm participating in, and makes me aware that it's a rigged game of someone else's design.  It's not mysterious so much as it is annoying.  The true mysteries are the things the POV characters don't know and have to strive to find out, not the things that they inexplicably haven't bothered to ask about.  So I would suggest either cutting those bits of dialogue, start getting into the answers, or give Vivenna a reason for not asking or Denth a reason for not answering quite yet.

I think the book  probably is a bit slow.  When I draft a novel, I tend to go through and cut about 15% just to keep the pacing up.  I haven't done that for this book, so that will help.  After that, I'll have to look and see if I need to speed anything up plotting-wise.

I think cuts might help the pacing, but also just infusing the previous chapters with more -- of everything -- will help, too.  Show us more about the characters, their characteristics, interests, expectations and goals.  Show us more about the world.  Right now it's difficult to give specifics because I don't know what is supposed to be mysterious (things the POV characters legitimately don't know or would want to keep quiet about) versus what could just use a little more explanation or description (as above, things the characters do know but just haven't gotten around to telling us).  But I can get back to this when you reach the finish.

I had guessed that the story was more at the 2/3 or 3/4 point, so I think it bodes well that there's a whole half of the story left: the recent chapters have all shown an upward trend in terms of interesting events and dialogue.

I think I'll also try to make it less of a 'mystery' that all the previous God Kings gave their lives away at that point.  It can be widely known, I think, but still a surprise to an outsider, if I work it right.

Sure.  Also, does it need to be a surprise?  I've been hesitant to make suggestions or offer specific ideas here for many reasons (it feels presumptuous; I don't know the full story so don't know if anything I suggest would actually work; I don't know if things I might suggest would fit your writing style) which I think results in my posts being predominantly critical.  So here's one idea, that I can elaborate on if you like: how much of Susebron's condition needs to be a surprise for Siri and/or the reader in order for the story to work?

MattD

I think the dialog in all the recent chapters has really taken a nice jump forward.  Partly it's that the characters are becoming more active, partly that the story is now giving your writing abilities more room to shine, and partly it's that interesting characters are finally interacting together -- so many of the previous chapters were characters talking and thinking mainly to themselves.  It's true even within the same chapter: Siri by herself, trying and failing to converse with Bluefingers, seems rather unimpressive; Siri and Lightsong together really sparkle.

I'm not sure I buy that nobody before has noticed the pattern of God Kings sacrificing themselves just when an heir is born.  That jumped out at me.  Did the Idris King not notice this before sending his daughter?  Did Vivenna not wonder about it during her studies?  Did the Monks who tutored her not realize?  It's not the kind of thing you can hide, and anyone not of the Hallendren faith would immediately think conspiracy.  It also struck me that the new-and-improved investigative Lightsong didn't pick up on this suspicious pattern.

I'm not sure whether I'm pleased with Siri's unthinking selflessness that she didn't ask what happened to the previous Vessels, or annoyed at her oversight.

Re: Ookla's (Spoookla's?) comments on sexuality...the Siri scenes didn't strike me as any more graphic than, say, a PG-13 movie, or some of Anne McCaffrey's Pern books that you alluded to earlier.  That being said, I do remember reading Dragonflight, Dragonquest and The White Dragon when I was around 12 or 13 and thinking of the more sexual bits that this was clearly weird adult stuff that I didn't really understand, that made me a little uncomfortable in a pubescent sort of way.

Susebron's sexual ignorance isn't necessarily unbelievable although you do get into nature vs. nurture there in terms of instinct.  It is totally believable for me that he wouldn't confront Siri about what she was doing...initially he wouldn't have had the vocabulary, and also would have assumed that Siri knew what she was doing (that is, that what Siri was doing was how babies were made).  Also, in the beginning he's trying to decide if she's someone he can trust and confide in, and her actions probably confuse him and make him delay approaching her.  At least, that's the sense I got.

It does raise the issue that the listeners are picking up on Siri's sounds of simulated sex but not on her teaching Susebron to read.  Also, did the priests really expect Siri to seduce Susebron and not become aware of his tongueless state?  To "don't ever try to talk to him" they would need to have added, "don't ever try to kiss him or expect him to kiss you."

MattD

(Edited to add paragraphs about sexuality.)

I just finished "The Gate of Gods" by Martha Wells, the final book in a trilogy.  Not bad, but far from her best work.  Wells is known for single-volume genre fantasies that avoid epic fantasy tropes (no elves, dwarves, dragons or wizards with long gray beards).  The best introduction to her work would be "Death of the Necromancer" but fans of "Elantris" might also be interested in her "Wheel of the Infinite," which features a somewhat similar plot element (I can't say what, it would spoil things for you).

I too have enjoyed most of Brusts' Taltos books (and most of his other works), but I didn't much care for the Bartimaeus books, or at least the last one (I have reviews of it and "Death of the Necromancer" up at Amazon if you're curious).  Too many plot problems.  I read "The Prestige" back when it came out, about 10 years ago.  I remember thinking that it was fairly good, but I can actually imagine it being a better movie than book.  That's rare, but it's a fairly compact, character-driven story.

I'm also currently reading "Designing Interactions," a non-fiction book by Bill Moggridge.  Next in my fiction queue is Italo Calvino's "The Nonexistent Knight and The Cloven Viscount."  Then it'll be time for something light again!

MattD

We had a really great discussion here a while back about how to write an empowered feminine character who isn't just a man in a dress.

Could you post a pointer to this previous thread?  It's of particular interest to me because I'm mid-way through writing My First Novel (tm) and my main POV character is a young woman.  I wouldn't say that the writing is any more difficult than when I write a male lead (writing is always difficult for me), but I am a little less sure, a little more aware that here be things that I may just be flat out wrong about.  The story required a young woman, though, so that's what I'm writing.

I can say that what I'm doing is writing a sparser first draft than I otherwise might, keeping the character focused on her goals.  Then I intend to solicit comments from my female friends about how believable my character is as a woman and things I could do to make her more-so (in the sense of perspectives, reactions and areas of concern, not "more scenes where she's applying lipstick"), without alienating a male audience in the process.  That to me is the key question: how can a writer best write a major POV character, make that character's gender matter, and yet not alienate the other gender?

I think a lot ultimately depends on the author's self-awareness, which leads into an awareness of others and overall imaginative faculties.  There are a lot of female writers who I think can't (or don't) write women, just Mary Sues, and male writers who can't or don't write believable men -- gender by itself guarantees nothing.  As far as my character goes, I am making sure she is "empowered" in the sense that she has real choices about her future, with relatively few financial, social, etc. constraints.  As you say, activities and skills are hardly ever gender-specific...the few that are mostly involve childbirth and rearing.  While some men are just threatened by "empowered" women, I do also think some feminists have helped create or at least support the "pretending to be a man" concept by equating "empowerment" with "empowered to choose traditionally male roles," rather than the broader, "empowered to choose whatever role they want."

Re: Lord of the Rings, I don't know, All Hallows E, if you're familiar with Neil Gaiman's concept that there are male and female stories, as well as characters (which would be another interesting topic for discussion), but one of the interesting things about LotR is that I think there's a very "male" story in the foreground overlaying a very "female" story in the background that peeks through every now and then.  I think that's part of why it has such cross-gender appeal.

I did wonder, though, whether Merry (who was male but not a man) or one of the Dead Men wouldn't also have been able to take out that Nazgul...

MattD

Matt,
Could you state, more specifically, which of the arguments you feel are straw men?  I'm aware of what that means, and I think I've got the scenes you're talking about, but I'm not quite certain (on the Siri one especially) where you are finding the characters to be less sophisticated than the reader.  

Certainly...

With Vivenna I was referring to page 14 in chapter 26, specifically the parts where Vivenna is thinking that to believe someone is wrong about something is to put yourself above them.  I thought the part before it, the conversation with Jewels, was really good, so I was disappointed that Vivenna then got mentally stuck at this point.  It seems to me that it's a simple trap that any mode of thinking offers some "out" from.  The "modern" approach of reason and rationality would state that believing someone is wrong about something is simply not putting yourself above them; you're only putting yourself above someone if you deny their ability to learn via reasoned debate the incorrectness of their belief, or deny them the same chance to convince you that they are right and you are wrong.  Some religions would assert that their precepts only apply to those who abide by the same faith, so it's okay to place yourself above non-believers.  In feudal times there was the parents vs. children argument, that commoners were like children who needed the guidance of the nobility and/or priesthood.  Etc.

So it seemed a bit of a straw man for her to be getting stuck on this question, because every society has some built-in way of answering it.  Vivenna is a Princess, after all: a monarchy must be based on some justification for putting some people above others, that she must be familiar with.  The scene thus felt like an artificial delay in Vivenna's story -- she wouldn't be grappling with this question, because she would already have a socially-supplied answer.  She would either be grappling with the justification that underlies that answer, or with the other fundamental questions she's facing.

With Siri, well, I myself have been called sarcastic more than once in the past (shocking, I know), so I guess the way she tries to define and justify sarcasm jumped out at me.  I think her definition (at the top of chapter 25, page 9) is actually backwards: sarcasm is when you say something with one meaning, often a meaning that might in other circumstances be kind, but mean it in a negative way, the opposite of its literal meaning.  When my younger brother messes up and I say, "oh, brilliant!," that's sarcasm.  It is by definition derisive: one of the roots of "sarcasm" means "to tear flesh."  When Siri says that being sarcastic is when you say "things that might be hurtful to someone, but you say them in an affectionate way, or in a playful way," really that's just irony: saying the opposite of something to achieve a particular emphasis.  Sarcasm often includes irony, but all that is ironic is not sarcastic.  Ironically, Siri's and Susebron's banter is in fact somewhat sarcastic -- even though none of it actually fits Siri's definition.

(Apologies for the lecture...don't even get me started on "sardonic!" )

Anyway, I thought this was a straw man because Susebron asks Siri some pretty big questions -- "why do people not say what they mean" and "why do they make fun of each other" -- and Siri gives an overly-simple answer to the straw man: "to be playful or tease."  

Does that make sense?  Maybe it's just me, but in each of these scenes, as I was reading them I found myself thinking "that's not right," or "I could answer that better," or "come on, the answer is obvious," etc.  That the scenes occurred in back-to-back chapters made it especially noticeable.

MattD