Author Topic: Mormonism & Sanderson's Writing  (Read 5356 times)

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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2009, 08:35:19 PM »
I'd read it. If I saw him at a book signing, I'd probably make like I hated it even if it was a masterpiece. But I'd still read it.
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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2009, 08:51:14 PM »
All writers put their worldview into their works. They don't do it intentionally or deliberately - it's an unavoidable consequence of being human. As a reader, you can't avoid it unless you want to stop reading.

There are a lot of things in Mistborn that resonate positively with me, as a Mormon. I can clearly see the influence of the LDS perspective; it's one I share, and I like that. Elantris - actually, it was the Mormon view on courtship, family, and love that came through strongest in that one for me.

As a counterexample, I've read a few books by Holly Lisle. They're great stories, and I have nothing against her skill as a writer. However, she has very strong liberal and libertarian political views and a vehement anti-religious bent, and it shows in her writing. I don't hold it against her; it is, as I said above, not only natural, but inevitable. Nevertheless, it lessened my enjoyment of the books enough for me to stop reading.

Can you enjoy an author's work whose worldviews you don't agree with? That's the question you've got to ask yourself. In my case, it depends on the author, and on the views.

Now, let me ask you something.

Quote
I'm interested in how others feel about how Sanderson's faith has influenced his novels, with examples given from his writing, and also any portions of his novels that reveal a break with Mormon teachings. If I'd been aware of Sanderson's beliefs at the time I'd read his books, I'd have had a keen eye on which characters if any imbibed coffee or smoked tobacco.

Why do you care about things that reveal a break with Mormon teachings? Are you looking for fuel to call the author a hypocrite? Or are you just trying to feel better about reading a book written by a Mormon?

I don't remember any mention of either coffee or tobacco in any of Sanderson's works. As far as I can tell, they don't exist in his fantasy worlds. Tea exists in Mistborn, and is drunk by characters both good and bad. Same with alcohol. What does this say about Sanderson, or his books?

Actually, not a whole lot. So he portrays characters doing things he would not himself do. News flash: that's what authors of fiction do. Again, I'm not sure why you even care.
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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2009, 09:12:31 PM »
I just wanted to thank those that have responded to Skeptic  so thoughtfully and considerately.  Too often the shrillest and least rational are those that post or get into the media and especially lately I'm glad for kind and reasonable voices discussing religion.
I am also LDS and enjoy the perspective that gives me to fantasy and fiction. I also enjoy the various voices that come together on this forum in a remarkably civilized way.  Thank You.

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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2009, 09:28:59 PM »
Since I am a Mormon and also noticed some Mormon themes in Sanderson's writings, I wanted to post my thoughts.

First, I really only noticed one Mormon theme in Mistborn. Mormon scripture teaches that the universe is governed by law. God is God because he obeys and uses those laws. Theoretically, if God were to be unjust, He would cease to be God, though of course that is inconsistent with His nature. That theme appears in the Mistborn series, especially the final book, as the main characters try to discover the laws that Ruin has to obey. It also appears in Alcatraz versus the Scrivener's Bones, with the Curators who obey their laws. I doubt Sanderson intended this to be a religious theme, but it may have been influenced by his background.

Second, I wanted to respond to a couple of Skeptic's concerns.
Quote
those that elevate racism to the status of divine judgment of a people's intrinsic worth as human beings.
Honestly, most Mormons would find it offensive to be called racist. (Although, of course, there are racist Mormons, just like there are probably racist people in every religion and culture.) I don't think this board is the right place to have an in-depth theological discussion, but I'll touch on it briefly. It is true that the Church refused to ordain people with black African ancestry to the priesthood for a long time. However, the Church never, ever taught that any race is superior or inferior to any other. Priesthood is a privilege, and even in the Old Testament God only allowed the Levites to hold the priesthood. The Book of Mormon itself states, "he [God] denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile" (2 Nephi 26:33). In other words, the restriction of the priesthood was never intended to be permanent, and it was never intended to affect the salvation of any race or person.

But I can certainly see why it bothers some people.

Another thing that bothers a lot of people is the idea of humans becoming like God in every way, essentially becoming Gods of their own worlds and spiritual children. It may bother you less to know that we also believe that this can only happen through the grace and atonement of Christ, and that we will always be subject to God as our Eternal Father. In other words, He will always be our God. (Not to mention that we believe that it will take a tremendous amount of learning and work and instruction from God after we die before we reach that point.)

Anyway, I hope that helps. :) Many religions seem absurd at first glance, but almost every religion has been analyzed but scholars and laypeople for years, if not centuries, who continue to believe the religion they have studied. Mormonism makes sense to me.

I think Brandon Sanderson has done a very good job at not putting his religion into his books. Core beliefs, such as the universe being a logical, orderly place, and such as family being very important, will obviously show up in his books. Otherwise they wouldn't truly be his books.
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happyman

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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2009, 09:32:37 PM »
Consider the book Elantris again, and the description of the curse in it that is the foundation for the novel (i.e., a fair-skinned race turned dark and loathsome by a divine curse, and a city whose very walls were transformed in color from white to black to visibly mark the city's descent from purity into corruption), in light of this:

_________________

2 Nephi 5:21-23:

"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

"And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities."

"And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done."

"And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey."

 2 Nephi 30:6:

"...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people."


3 Nephi 2:15:

"And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites."


The above was the basis for the Mormon church refusing to ordain blacks as ministers until after the year 1978, at which time the leaders of the Mormon church received a new "revelation" that God had apparently changed his mind about blacks, and they weren't spiritually inferior to whites after all (this change of heart was rather convenient for the extremely wealthy Mormon faith, as the IRS had been threatening to revoke its tax-exempt status because of the faith's racist teachings and practices). 

I believe Sanderson's internal struggle with these passages and past practices of his church is revealed in Elantris. I am heartened by Sanderson's portrayal of the character Galladon in Elantris, a heroic character who was also a black man.

Skeptic,

I wonder why you hate Mormonism so much.  As an anti-dote to what you've said, I've provided a bit of perspective on some of your statements (no, you don't know much about Mormonism, and you've made some pretty serious mistakes).  I've run out of time to write more, so the following might come off a bit abrupt, but as far as I know, I haven't made any factual errors.

Firstly, the Book of Mormon curse.  Yeah, you really don't know what you're talking about here.  With the most literal reading of the Book of Mormon possible, the curse being described therein is placed on the Lamanites, which in most readings became the American Indians.  It actually has no connection to the alleged curse of Cain that banned black people from holding the Priesthood in the Mormon church (that bit of theology was actually lifted whole and uninspected from the Protestant culture of the time).  The only possible connection that the statements you quote could have would be with a ban on American Indians holding the priesthood, and as far as I know, that didn't exist.  Quite the opposite.  American Indians were actively proselyted.  These "cursed" people were promptly and very quickly declared to be among the most blessed, if they would accept the gospel.

The less literal connections with racism are much more likely, but the Book of Mormon actually provides no basis for any such racism in practice.  The people cursed with the curse in the Book of Mormon are, within the context of the book itself, entirely free to accept the Gospel, get baptized, receive the priesthood (Samuel the Lamanite for those of you who have any idea what I'm talking about), become members in full fellowship,  and be saved.  When they are so converted, the Book of Mormon also claims that they become more righteous than those who were not cursed.  It does mention that in one particular interest, one group that converted became white, but this is the exception rather than the rule; in all other known cases, nothing changes but their behavior.  Yet they are still considered righteous.

No, the Blacks and the Priesthood is another issue entirely.  The connections to LDS scripture are weak.

Your connection with Scientology is pernicious and displays your ignorance, as well as your zealotry.  The connection is ridiculously obscure.  The notion of a pre-existence for all humans has floated around in various (admittedly non-mainstream) forms for a long time.  That two groups have this in common (and completely different, essentially unrelated forms of it, I might add) is a worthless ad-hominen.  You are trading off hate and distrust for one group with hate and distrust for another.

Quote
Let me frame this another way, and put the shoe on the other foot, so to speak.

There's a Muslim sci-fi book out there entitled Mosque Among the Stars.

http://ahmedakhan.livejournal.com/18904.html

Looks interesting; beautiful cover. I'd pick it up and give it a look-see if I encountered it in a bookstore. Although I have no pressing desire to learn anything more about the Mormon faith, I think it is urgent we better understand the Muslim faith. In a way, I'd be more comfortable with the religious underpinnings of this book than Elantris or Warbreaker since there'd be no attempt to disguise them.

But what if, prior to reading the book, you learned that the editors / authors Muhammad Aurangzeb Ahmed & Ahmed Khan supported the 9/11 attacks as the righteous judgment of Allah delivered upon the wicked and/or regarded Osama bin Ladin as a hero? Would you be available to divorce yourself from this knowledge as you read the book, even if nothing of the sort was directly stated in the book?

(This is a purely hypothetical example. I expect these two gentlemen, both Muslims, hold no such beliefs regarding 9/11.)

You also, I note, use the example of Islam.  Apparently, you would rather read a book by a Muslim than a Mormon.  With a Muslim, you actually apparently would take some time to find out how they actually feel about the individual issues before judging the book.  Mormons get no such slack; we are apparently so heinous by nature that any taint of the beliefs in original works by a new author kill the work.  (And I see nothing actually heinous in the doctrines you actually get right; weird is not the same as bad; otherwise the universe is inherently evil, being quantum mechanical and relativistic).  

I found it interesting that your complaints focused almost entirely on doctrine.  Why?  Why do you particularly care which "wrong doctrines" he believes?  Surely the belief in God is sufficient to make all religions equally bad?  (Incidentally, human theosis is something you should probably not want to cite evangelicals on if you are an atheist bashing Mormonism.   The worst infighting, BTW, is usually between religions, but the reasons are often obscure and usually irrelevant to outsiders.  What do you care about what we think happens well after this life?  We don't think we are going to become gods in any way, shape or form while alive, and so the impact on practical morality, which is surely all you should care about, is almost nil.  It certainly distinguishes us from, say, Calvinism, but what do you care?  Also note that Brandon's conception of human gods is rather different from the mainstream Mormon one.  The humans called gods in his works, even the shards, fall far short of the Mormon view of divinity.)

Oh, BTW, if this is how you respond, you probably want to avoid Orson Scott Card as well.  He's a brilliant author, but his Mormonism shows through pretty darn clearly as well, if you know how to look.

Quote

So what's this have to do with Brandon Sanderson? Among other things, he's writing the last book in the Wheel of Time series. Although I thought the quality of Robert Jordan's books declined as the series grew longer in tooth, the first few are dear to my heart and precious to me. And an appropriate conclusion to Robert Jordan's life work is important to me. I don't want to find myself stumbling across artifacts of Mr. Sanderson's Mormon faith when I read the last book in that series, authored by him. I don't know if he can avoid doing so, as his religious faith is clearly deeply rooted and of the unquestioning, "It's in Scripture so it's settled" variety.

Frankly I wish Mr. Sanderson had kept his personal beliefs regarding religion private, as now I may see things that aren't even there when I read his next book.

Even more frankly, you've seen things that aren't there already.  Among other things, where did you see the  "It's in Scripture so it's settled" variety of faith?  I haven't seen it in his work, and I'm Mormon.  I can only assume that you assume that it is a prime feature of Mormonism.  Sorry to burst your bubble, but I would have thought that Brandon's works themselves would have disabused you of this notion.  None of his characters have this attitude.  Sazed most definitely does not; when he has this type of attitude, it actually leads into a worse catastrophe (Ruin).  The only scriptures they have in the corpus that we actually get a look at have been tainted by an evil god and are thus wrong on key points!  In fact, in his works, some religions are right and some are wrong.  Worse:  some are more correct than others, but all of them have human aspects not represented in the core doctrines, and not really true.  This is a subtle approach to religion.  Unfortunately, it isn't active atheism, so a lot of atheists don't like it.  Religious people, on the other hand, find it a breath of fresh air in a world in which even much fantasy is dominated by strictly anti-religious sentiment.  It also matches real-world religions much more closely.

As for how I would feel reading literature by someone who supported the 9-11 Hijackers?  Well, it would make me feel uncomfortable.  I might not do it.  I'm much more curious what public policies, programs and institutions you think Brandon supports that would make supporting him on par with such people.  You have listed nothing nearly that heinous.  Sorry, but racism institutionally almost thirty years dead which he apparently doesn't agree with shouldn't cut it.

I have read many books by people whom I disagree with.  Most of them were not so over the top that I wasn't able to handle it.  The only one that I would actively recommend against is "The Eternity Artifact," but that's as much because it is dead boring once you strip out the uninsightful, uninformed anti-religious sophistry as it is because of the sophistry.  Oh, and he had absolutely no notion of how science actually works, either.  Purely gratuitous science-and-humanism vs. gratuitous religion.  Whoopee.

So, in closing, I hope this is a bit of a corrective.  You may mean the questions honestly, but if so, I suggest you do a different type of research when you try to get answers.

Oh, yeah.  Brandon's work rocks.  I hope you don't miss out on that just because you don't like his religion.
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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2009, 09:40:04 PM »
Quote
Edit  by Nessa: Changed LSD to LDS. This is a reference to Latter-day Saint, a member name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Well, indeed this is a serious thread, or I would have received at least five replies saying something as "Oh, so he was LSD follower... now I DO understand those magic systems"  :D
Sorry, but that was too good to let it go  ;)

As said by Ryos (in a different way), we tend to like what we know and agree with, so it's normal to have likes and dislikes in books concerning these. But there are also other things in a book.
For example, I am a real fan of "A Song of Fire and Ice" by George R.R. Martin. Although I haven't heard it specifically, it seems BS likes it too. It's hard for me to read it sometimes, for the level of violence there is (I don't like Rome or Gallactica for those same reasons), and my wife left the second volume unfinished, but I go on because of the other things which are good in them.
I don't like some of the things in BS books (oh, please, Vin and Elend never go to bed together until they get married? That's so unlike Vin's philosphy.....) but I pass on it and go on for the parts I like. I suppose it's what we all do.

Anyway, Skeptic, it seems you had bad experience (or maybe just reference) about Mormons. But archtypes are not people. You would find some LDS followers who just fit your loathing image and some who would make you think they are not Mormons. Well, that's life, that's people.

And I'm runting, I should be getting ready to sleep, so sorry if it was a messy chat.  :)

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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2009, 12:05:24 AM »
Quote
So he portrays characters doing things he would not himself do. News flash: that's what authors of fiction do.
Exactly. I've written stories where the main character tortures others; would I ever do that? No!!! But I can still write about it!!!

Quote
Many religions seem absurd at first glance
Also exactly. The fact that Catholicism is one of the most popular religions in the world (random example) is simply a matter of the time; thousands of years ago, before Catholicism was even invented, of course it wasn't popular! In ten thousand years, maybe Mormonism will be the most common religion. You can't criticize others for their beliefs; you can argue against them, and debate points, but you can't criticize them for what they believe. I heard a very interesting quote the other day (not on TWG): "When one person has a crazy idea, they call him mad. When many people have that same, crazy idea, they call it religion." You can't fault a person for their beliefs, no matter how crazy they may seem to you. Because if we were all the same, think what a borign place the world would be–we would have no debates, no arguments, and really would stop thinking in those ways.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 02:53:01 AM by Shag Dog »
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Reaves

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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2009, 01:32:06 AM »
The fact that Christianity is one of the most popular religions in the world (random example) is simply a matter of the time; thousands of years ago, before Christianity was even invented, of course it wasn't popular! In ten thousand years, maybe Mormonism will be the most common religion.
Generally Mormons consider themselves to be Christians.

At the matter at hand though: its a product. Brandon is writing out of his own experiences and worldview. Obviously that worldview will shape what he writes. I personally do not agree with many of the things he believes. However, that does not stop me from appreciating his books for what they are: brilliantly written fantasy.

I do believe there are many clear influences of Brandon's beliefs on his series; the ending of MB3 and what Sazed becomes always struck me as being incredibly Mormonistic.
...So what?

Brandon is selling a product. You don't need to buy it if you don't want to. Of course I understand that you are a fan of the Wheel of Time, which he is finishing. However, I doubt Brandon's worldview will affect it except in the most minute ways. Jordan spent his last days planning and plotting and voice recording and even writing entire scenes, and Brandon will follow those instructions. Trust me, he won't change the book so it will line up with his own beliefs. Of course, those beliefs will affect what he writes, but that is the same for everyone. To ask him to do otherwise would be to ask him to be dishonest. To write something that isn't him. To lie. And if he did that the book would suck.
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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2009, 05:26:51 AM »
happyman said everything I was going to say, so there's no point in saying anything else about it here.

We've had Mormon vs. anti threads in this forum before. If you're in the mood to read religious arguing on a fantasy author's forum, you can search for them and get your fill.
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Eleaneth

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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2009, 06:22:25 AM »
You know, pretty much every major belief system teaches tolerance in some way or another. I've heard many Mormon leaders speak from the pulpit about being respectful of other faiths. Agnosticism without tolerance is self-defeating. Athiesm, Islam, Judaism... all generally claim to be the most intelligent, most true, most logical, but they generally also teach to be tolerant, except for extreme offshoot groups.

And yet it amazes me how intolerant most of us are. I read something I disagree with, and I suddenly find myself feeling angry or disgusted. I have to calm myself down. In religion (and politics as well), we become so passionate sometimes. It's easy to get carried away. (Not that we shouldn't state our views and disagree plainly and honestly. It's just easy to resort to thick-headed stubbornness and personal attacks.)

Anyway, I think we've done a pretty good job of keeping it polite here, like readerMom said. It makes me happy. :)
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Skeptic

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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2009, 07:04:39 AM »
It is disingenuous to argue that Mormon preaching and practice as directed by the leaders of its church wasn't racist until quite recently (after 1978).  These practices rest on a foundation found in the "holy scripture"' revered by Mormons. Saying that the passages I quoted from Mormon scripture refer only to "Lamanites" and their descendants misses the essential point, which is that according to these passages God marked his displeasure with an entire race by turning them black and therefore "loathsome", as opposed to God's chosen who were white and therefore "delightsome".

Really, we need only to look to what Brigham Young (the same guy the university at which Mr. Sanderson teaches  was named after) wrote and preached on the subject:

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their
habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed
upon mankind.
The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that
would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon
him, which is the flat nose and black skin
. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is
pronounced upon the same race − that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that
curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race
to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the
Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the
blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are
brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the
Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be
removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be
removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion.


This is the very same man who ordered the massacre by Mormon militia of 120 non-Mormon settlers--men, women and children murdered in cold blood--on their way to California, a singular event in American history known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

That it was Brigham Young himself who ordered the attack seems undeniable in light of the weight of evidence presented by modern historians including Will Bagley, who won over 9 awards for his account of this atrocity as set forth in his book, Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows, including the Western History Association’s John W. Caughey Prize for the year’s most distinguished book on the history of the American West. Young apparently ordered the massacre as an act divine retribution for the slaying of Joseph Smith, the founder the Mormon faith--he was guided in this by a peculiar theory known as the "blood of atonement", which holds that while some some wrongs can be righted with the blood of animals (recall the references to animal sacrifice in the Old Testament), some injustices are so grave atonement requires the blood of men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Bagley

Bagley, while widely regarded as having authored the "definitive work" on the subject, is simply the most notable in a long line of respected historians who have fingered Brigham Young for this crime. I am unaware of any historian today contesting the conclusions reached by Bagley, et. al. except of course the Mormons and those affiliated with them.

The Mormon faith isn't unique in relying upon despicable scriptural sources; we need look no further than Judges 21 of the Old Testament, in which God in his infinite wisdom orders the massacre of all of the men, women and children in Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls.

It also isn't unique in having inspired its adherents to commit murder: the Crusades, the Thirty Years War, the Bosnian conflict, 9/11, etc. etc.

What is particularly disturbing about the Mormon faith, though, is its monolithic nature, and the lack of any real dissent within its church. When it comes to matters of faith, its followers generally march in lock-step unison (although generalizations aren't worth much when applied to individuals). They are literalists when it comes to the interpretation of scripture (Sanderson has explained matters of faith here with the apparently self-sufficient explanation, "It's in the Scripture."). And when it comes to the conduct of their church, they do not admit mistakes. To this day, Brigham Young is lauded as a hero by Mormons.

A telling sign of how the Mormon church truly regarded the events that transpired at Mountain Meadows was the 1961 posthumous reinstatement into the Mormon church and restoration of Temple blessings of John Lee, the only man tried and executed for the Mountain Meadow murders. This is curious in light of the fact that the Mormon scriptures command as follows:

Doctrine and Covenants 42:18: "...he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."   132:27:  "The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood,...after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant..."

The Mormon church elders as of 1961 clearly did not regard John Lee as having shed "innocent blood". Chilling.

I hope this explains why I said I was "troubled" to discover that the author of the final book in The Wheel of Time series is a devout Mormon.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 07:33:49 AM by Skeptic »

ryos

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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2009, 07:57:12 AM »
Skeptic: I won't bother to rebut most of your post. I get the feeling you're not here for a doctrinal discussion, and trying to engage you in one would just waste everyone's time. I will, therefore, attempt to address what appears to be your purpose in posting, as nearly as I can discern: I'll attempt to assuage your stated concerns about Brandon being Mormon and how it might affect his writing.

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It is disingenuous to argue that Mormon preaching and practice as directed by the leaders of its church wasn't racist until quite recently (after 1978).

It's equally disingenuous to argue that a policy that was discontinued in 1978 has any bearing on the contemporary church or its members.

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What is particularly disturbing about the Mormon faith, though, is its monolithic nature, and the lack of any real dissent within its church. When it comes to matters of faith, its followers march in lock-step unison. They are literalists when it comes to the interpretation of scripture (Sanderson has explained matters of faith here with the apparently self-sufficient explanation, "It's in the Scripture.").

You say that like it's a bad thing. In a religion, that's a strength.

Scientists benefit greatly from a healthy dose of skepticism, because they don't have an absolute source of truth and must operate under the assumption that everything they know might be wrong. Dissension in such a context is healthy and serves ultimately to shore up the body of scientific knowledge.

Believers in a religion, on the other hand, can go straight to a source of truth that they know to be reliable: God. Mormons are strongly encouraged to verify that some truths come from God, and which those are (this is called a personal testimony). We do this simply by asking him, following the instructions laid out in Moroni 10:3-5.

It should be obvious that arguing and disputing truth that comes from an unchanging god is unproductive and pointless: either it's true and you know it, or it isn't. We are thus commanded to be united (one heart and one mind), and not to engage in fruitless doctrinal disputations.

Let me close with a general admonition not to judge people based on what you think you know about their religion. You seem to think that Mormons are all horrible people because of a few things you read in some anti-Mormon literature. How many Mormons have you actually known? I'm not going to pretend that we're all perfect saints (that's just ridiculous - of course every barrel has a few bad apples), but I feel confident that if you were to actually give us a chance we'd surprise you with how non-murderous, non-racist, and how generally good we are.
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Skeptic

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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2009, 12:18:58 PM »
I know many Mormons. They tend to be very nice people. I haven't said otherwise. They also tend not to ask many questions. And that's the problem. I suppose Blood of the Prophets is "anti-Mormon literature" because it relates historical facts and raises questions that most Mormons aren't comfortable facing.

I'm not surprised B. Sanderson says nothing critical of anything ever done by the Mormon church in light of the way the church treats critics.

Thomas Murphy, a Mormon college professor, dared publish an academic essay proving with genetic evidence that American Indians didn't come from Israel, and was nearly expelled from the church for doing so. According to this Wall Street Journal article, "Apparently I don't believe the way they want me to believe," said the lifelong Mormon with a master's degree in anthropology who is chairman of the department at Edmonds Community College in Lynnwood, Wash.  (A copy of the original WSJ article is here: http://www.happinessonline.org/MoralCode/LiveWithTruth/p28.htm). 

Also according to the article, an Egyptologist was expelled from the Mormon church for pointing out that Joseph Smith had made an error in translating an ancient document.

So here we have the Mormon church threatening to expel academics for stating simple incontrovertible facts based on their own research. In this day and age, the leadership of very few faiths would do so.

In light of all this, I think I'm absolutely justified in my suspicion that Sanderson must ensure that nothing in any of his books could potentially anger the Mormon church elders if brought to their attention.  This in turn may influence the writing of the last book in the Wheel of Time series.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 12:27:02 PM by Skeptic »

Hanami

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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2009, 12:43:26 PM »
This is the very same man who ordered the massacre by Mormon militia of 120 non-Mormon settlers--men, women and children murdered in cold blood--on their way to California, a singular event in American history known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Honestly, couldn't you find a better example?

I don't really know the facts, but judging a religion or its teachings by the acts of a single person is... absurd. So, what if there are people that considers themselves Mormon and do bad things? Does it mean everyone will do the same? Then I will go to the prison and will look for catholic murderers, muslim murderers, budist murderers, agnostic murderers, atheist murderers... and so on, until I will be able to consider all people are murderers by the acts of a handful of people.

... I believe you get my point...

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I know many Mormons. They tend to be very nice people. They also tend not to ask many questions. And that's the problem.

Honestly, I believe that you should read some of Brandon's articles. The one who talks about Dumbledore's homosexuality, for example. I believe it will give you a better understanding of Brandon's beliefs than a biased oppinion in LDS's doctrine.

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a singular event in American history known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

... which was more than a century and a half ago. If we are going to see what happened in the past, then I believe we have to equally condemn Catholics and Muslims for the 'holy war'. Oh, and I have forgotten Anglicanism, add that one too, there was people killed because of being Catholic in the name of it. And... well, I'm sure we can continue, and get something bad for any religion... or politic views, for example. You have mentioned other religions, so... why exactly do you believe Mormon faith to be the most despicable one?

Reaves

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Re: Mormon Doctrine & Sanderson's Writing
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2009, 12:46:21 PM »
I'm going to be honest, Skeptic. I really don't see the problem. You stated in your original post that Brandon is not a rascist. He's not asking you to convert to Mormonism, just to like his books.

Also, don't judge him by what people have said or done centuries ago. Judge him by his own words and actions, just like you would anybody else.
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RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!