Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Comfortable Madness on April 19, 2008, 08:07:53 AM
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The Lord Ruler was obviously the antagonist in the first installment of the series but can any of us say with one-hundred percent confidence we would have done things different? We know he resented the fact that Alendi was the "Hero" prophesied by the people of Terris even though he wasn't a Terrisman. We can also assume that if it wasn't for Rashek, Alendi would have done would Vin did just 1000 years prior thus releasing the well spirit. So, can we say that Rashek was a stop gap between himself and the real "Hero of Ages"? Properly holding back the well spirit until the actual "Hero" Vin, or as someone stated on one of these threads Elend, came to fulfill their role as savior? It's true he did perpeptrate many a horrible crime but maybe the power went to his head. I mean really put yourself in his shoes. He stopped a supposed "Hero" from releasing some horrible(or so I think) power upon all humanity while all the while being told noone of his blood would be able to do so. Now he has almost limitless power and somehow he uses it to restrain some darker, than himself that is, power back from consuming life as it is known. My point being that without TLR or Rashek or whatever you want to call him would the world have ever produced a Vin or even a Kelsier?
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I think you mean antagonist when referring to the Lord ruler, protagonist is the hero of the story. Other than that, I definately agree with you. I still think in the end he turned out to be greedy and power hungry, but at the same time he was brilliant and as he said, "you know not what I do for mankind." For mankind, yes without him Vin and Kelsier wouldn't exist probably, but I still think itr was warranted when Vin took his life.
Heres a thought, you know how koloss and knadra can be controlled by soothing them, well, what if that's how the lord ruler has been limiting the power of Ruin. We already know he always exuded a huge soothing all around him, but was it just a show of power, or was he also trying to limit the effects of the well spirit?
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Protagonist, antagonist... Was he really one of the two ? I'm starting to think very strange thoughts with all the reading I've been doing in the last three-four days. This isn't to improve my case.
Like Comatose, I think Rashek wanted to set things right at the beginning. His people should have been dominant since the prophecy (the real one, the one that was counterfeited) had been given to them. I understand his point of view. So he was instructed by Kwaan to kill Alendi if he just could not loose him in the Terris mountains. Let's believe that TLR is Rashek. It is obvious to me that the well spirit work had started corrupting the prophecy way before the advent of Alendi. It takes time for all feruchemists to empty their metal mind and refil them by reading what they wrote again. If there was only one, it could have been fast but they were not bred yet. So it took time before Alendi, and yet once Alendi was found, it kept on changing things, subtly.
It is possible that Rashek suffered from this. Imagine one moment, the ones leading your people being fool by a spirit of some sort, being defeated by what they considered most sacred : their feruchemy. Of course Kwaan would have been persecuted for his belief. He might also have died defending it. It seems to me that Terris people are sincere and honest and don't easily bend. They must have been hard on him. Rashek might have had some resentment toward them. The official story is that Rashek killed Alendi so let's stick to it (for my own sanity).
Rashek kills Alendi in the Terris mountains and then goes himself to the Well of Ascension. Somehow, I do not think it was instilled by Kwaan. He doesn't mention that on his metal work. But maybe Rashek thought that HE was the Hero. After all, who could that be now that Alendi was dead ? The Šeepness was there, making everyone desperate. So, he takes it upon himself to go to the well. Now, before I continue, I cannot recall a single place where it says that Rashek was feruchemist. Don't jump ! But I only have a small reluctance on this even after all the threads I've read. Whatever he was before, it got changed afterwards. Comatose, you might say that you don't believe that TLR is using hemalurgy, but I tend to believe it when I read it in Brandon's annotations. He would not lie, would he ? Would he lead us astray voluntarily ? Unless the well spirit is active in this world, I don't think so. So here Rashek to the Well of Ascension investigated with POWER so immense ! He's got the power to change the world, to set it right. He sees the Deepness and does something. Now the more I think of it, the less I think that the Deepness was the regular mist or even the Mist Spirit.
Like Kwaan suggest, it might be the Well that created the Deepness just to force people to act. So here, Rashek acted but not the way it was hoping. When I read Vin's thought when the POWER invests her, I see one thing. Vin is in love and what pushed her to act is love, at that moment, she is no more the paranoid kid. Things she wants to do are things that love is pleased in, things that are agreable. When Rashek was in the same situation, he was already bitter. For all that we know, Alendi could have been the first man he killed and eventhough he did not like him, he might have come to realize as Kwaan did that the man was a good man. So he might have felt guilty also. And angry towards his fellow Terrisman, worst even toward the feruchemists that forced him to do what he did. It might be also that they killed his uncle, his woman and what not. Now if the POWER intensified Vin's feeling what do you think Rashek's feeling would have been intensified like ? Let's say, it's just a huge rioting they both received from the Well in addition to the POWER. But let's say that the Well spirit is not quite finished.
The Well spirit talks to Vin to convince her to give up the POWER so it could be freed. I have no doubt whatsoever that this spirit talked to Rashek as well. Once Vin liberated the POWER, it doesn't talk to her anymore, but Rashek did not do this... Do you see where this leads ? And how is a man suppose to react to such pressure after 5 years ? 10 ? 276 ? 589 ? 1000 ? His feelings only gets worst of course, the rioting constant. He wants to destroy the Terris Nation, but he still loves them somewhere. If he destroys feruchemy, the tool of the well spirit, his people (or what's left of them) can go on living. So he starts breeding the feruchemy out in the hope to salvage what's left. We have no reason to believe that Rashek did not love his people. He had the highest hopes for them ! The inner room was placated with reminders of his former life. He must have been desperate to see them survive. If only the feruchemy could be bred out ! Understand he only wanted to erase lies...
But the well spirit is not happy. Inquisitors is its counter balance. The Well spirit might be giving power to TLR, but it is also its torn in the flesh, his weakness. Whatever we think we know, it is what the Inquisitors and the Obligators taught the people, not reality for sure. They manipulated the truth just like the Well Spirit did. Like father like son. Did TLR really created the Inquisitors or the Well Spirit in him ? They were certainly meant to destroy, right from the beginning of their creation. I suggest that the Inquisitor were a tool of the Well spirit and therefore keep a hand on the control of its creation. The Well Spirit still talks to Zane telling him to kill everyone but Vin. It needs her to release it. It talks to Marsh to kill Sazed to stop him from reaching Vin. If Marsh cant help it after just a few weeks or months... how do you want TLR to manage so long without any effect ?
I tell you, TLR is a victim... ::)
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But The Well didn't start gaining power until after the lord ruler's death until aftere he died, so he couldn't have been influencing him unless...
Perhaps the well spirit was influencing the lord ruler and only him because he was acting as a shield, protection the people of the world from the well- spirits power by taking the brunt of it.
And it does say RAshek was a feruchemist in the log book entries by Alendi.
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I agree. I think that TLR was refraining the well spirit from gaining strenght as long as he lived. It is obvious to me that even after the Lord Ruler's death, Marsh still hears the well spirit so he wasn't the only one influenced and possibly all of the Inquisitors were. We'll see, I guess.
I do have a lowsy memory so I won't argue on this point. I have to reread everything anyhow. It might be well so. But I hold on to his hemalurgy.
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One thing that doesn't make sense, and this has bee nbrought up before, is that Vin's mother and Zane both heard voices during hte Lord Ruler's life.
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I can't seem to find any sympathy for a person who so easily discarded the lives of so many. It is one thing to lash out in anger and punish your enemies, but to do it for so long? At best, the Skaa are nothing but livestock to him. And your right, Coma. He couldn't stop Ruin from influencing Zane or Vin's mom. It also wouldn't surprise me if he still had some sway over the Inq's, although much more subtly than afterwards.
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Perhaps the lrod ruler was acting like a shield of sorts, but some of ruin's influence still leaked around the edges, as he gained, power, thus he was able to influence a few select people who would be important to him later.
Another thing, when did Vin snap, perhaps ruin had something to do with that as well.
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I don't remember reading about the exact time. Maybe it was the day her mother killed her sister and gave her the earring? We can only guess. She definitely didn't snap like Kelsier did. Maybe she always had her abilities. That will probably be something EUOL answers after book 3 comes out.
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Yes, in MB1, it says something along the lines of, "there were many times in her life when it could have happened, (not exact quote, I just don't have the book with me right now.
I think it was likely when her mother performed the wierd earing ritual, but that brings up that old question: Is Vin really and allomancer, or does all her abilities come from hemalurgy. I'm oretty sure she's an allomancer, after all, she draws on the mist, and uses allomancy without her earing so, it's unlikely, but still, would she have been an allomncer without the ritual.
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Protagonist, antagonist... Was he really one of the two ? I'm starting to think very strange thoughts with all the reading I've been doing in the last three-four days. This isn't to improve my case.
Like Comatose, I think Rashek wanted to set things right at the beginning. His people should have been dominant since the prophecy (the real one, the one that was counterfeited) had been given to them. I understand his point of view. So he was instructed by Kwaan to kill Alendi if he just could not loose him in the Terris mountains. Let's believe that TLR is Rashek. It is obvious to me that the well spirit work had started corrupting the prophecy way before the advent of Alendi. It takes time for all feruchemists to empty their metal mind and refil them by reading what they wrote again. If there was only one, it could have been fast but they were not bred yet. So it took time before Alendi, and yet once Alendi was found, it kept on changing things, subtly.
It is possible that Rashek suffered from this. Imagine one moment, the ones leading your people being fool by a spirit of some sort, being defeated by what they considered most sacred : their feruchemy. Of course Kwaan would have been persecuted for his belief. He might also have died defending it. It seems to me that Terris people are sincere and honest and don't easily bend. They must have been hard on him. Rashek might have had some resentment toward them. The official story is that Rashek killed Alendi so let's stick to it (for my own sanity).
Rashek kills Alendi in the Terris mountains and then goes himself to the Well of Ascension. Somehow, I do not think it was instilled by Kwaan. He doesn't mention that on his metal work. But maybe Rashek thought that HE was the Hero. After all, who could that be now that Alendi was dead ? The Šeepness was there, making everyone desperate. So, he takes it upon himself to go to the well. Now, before I continue, I cannot recall a single place where it says that Rashek was feruchemist. Don't jump ! But I only have a small reluctance on this even after all the threads I've read. Whatever he was before, it got changed afterwards. Comatose, you might say that you don't believe that TLR is using hemalurgy, but I tend to believe it when I read it in Brandon's annotations. He would not lie, would he ? Would he lead us astray voluntarily ? Unless the well spirit is active in this world, I don't think so. So here Rashek to the Well of Ascension investigated with POWER so immense ! He's got the power to change the world, to set it right. He sees the Deepness and does something. Now the more I think of it, the less I think that the Deepness was the regular mist or even the Mist Spirit.
Like Kwaan suggest, it might be the Well that created the Deepness just to force people to act. So here, Rashek acted but not the way it was hoping. When I read Vin's thought when the POWER invests her, I see one thing. Vin is in love and what pushed her to act is love, at that moment, she is no more the paranoid kid. Things she wants to do are things that love is pleased in, things that are agreable. When Rashek was in the same situation, he was already bitter. For all that we know, Alendi could have been the first man he killed and eventhough he did not like him, he might have come to realize as Kwaan did that the man was a good man. So he might have felt guilty also. And angry towards his fellow Terrisman, worst even toward the feruchemists that forced him to do what he did. It might be also that they killed his uncle, his woman and what not. Now if the POWER intensified Vin's feeling what do you think Rashek's feeling would have been intensified like ? Let's say, it's just a huge rioting they both received from the Well in addition to the POWER. But let's say that the Well spirit is not quite finished.
The Well spirit talks to Vin to convince her to give up the POWER so it could be freed. I have no doubt whatsoever that this spirit talked to Rashek as well. Once Vin liberated the POWER, it doesn't talk to her anymore, but Rashek did not do this... Do you see where this leads ? And how is a man suppose to react to such pressure after 5 years ? 10 ? 276 ? 589 ? 1000 ? His feelings only gets worst of course, the rioting constant. He wants to destroy the Terris Nation, but he still loves them somewhere. If he destroys feruchemy, the tool of the well spirit, his people (or what's left of them) can go on living. So he starts breeding the feruchemy out in the hope to salvage what's left. We have no reason to believe that Rashek did not love his people. He had the highest hopes for them ! The inner room was placated with reminders of his former life. He must have been desperate to see them survive. If only the feruchemy could be bred out ! Understand he only wanted to erase lies...
But the well spirit is not happy. Inquisitors is its counter balance. The Well spirit might be giving power to TLR, but it is also its torn in the flesh, his weakness. Whatever we think we know, it is what the Inquisitors and the Obligators taught the people, not reality for sure. They manipulated the truth just like the Well Spirit did. Like father like son. Did TLR really created the Inquisitors or the Well Spirit in him ? They were certainly meant to destroy, right from the beginning of their creation. I suggest that the Inquisitor were a tool of the Well spirit and therefore keep a hand on the control of its creation. The Well Spirit still talks to Zane telling him to kill everyone but Vin. It needs her to release it. It talks to Marsh to kill Sazed to stop him from reaching Vin. If Marsh cant help it after just a few weeks or months... how do you want TLR to manage so long without any effect ?
I tell you, TLR is a victim... ::)
Before I go any further, I suggest you read this very interesting topic (mostly so you don't keep calling it the Well Spirit): Ruin and Preservation (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5739.0)
Wow... that post was large. I must go to sleep and ponder this. Primarily, what you said about Inquisitors being created by Ruin (the Well Spirit).
I shall post an in-depth analysis soon! Tommorow!
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Well, not quite the well spirit ( I will continue to call it that way as long as I don't understand the principle and-or agree with how you did associated it with whatever), but the Well Spirit suggesting powerfully the one who hears and has the power. I think personaly that it is the source of hemalurgy. I might be wrong, but still...
And I'm trying to put words into my theories, the ones I promised Darxbane on the other topic. I'm no champion of clarity.
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I understand completely. I have trouble using Ruin sometimes, too, and I was part of that discussion. If you read the chapter in MB2 where Vin first figures out how Allomancers can control Kandra, you'll see where TenSoon says humans are of Ruin, and the Kandra of Preservation. While we don't know exactly what Preservation is, Ookla (who is an alpha reader) said that the name of the Well Spirit was mentioned in book 2. He made us figure it out, but we did come up with Ruin eventually. Brandon also mentioned in an annotation that TLR only touched upon one of the two forces. That sparked a whole other debate. Are you implying a True Power kind of scenario, A la Wheel of Time?
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I simply mean that the suggestion would be so strong that the person would feel (eventually) that it did not have any choice to act otherwise. In the WoT, the one with the power was deciding to use it and in control (with practice). Now, how did Zane controlled himself not to kill everyone around him, that amazes me. He must have been really strong ! Remember how Alendi was tortured in having to kill all those people for the greatest good ? He was tormented, at the least, and I see the same torment in Zane, in Vin's mother (am I forgetful again but Brandon does not say that she is dead, right ? She only flew ? ), in Vin even - she hears "Reen's voice", she does not only remember him - it is not phrase like it's only a remembrance, at least). I printed the 26 pages of the Ruin & Preservation thread. I just seem to have a hard time getting the concept in. Must be my slowbrainer side at work... or wherever ruin passed by lol
And hum... I am not that sure that Rashek is the true identity of the Lord Ruler... dont hit me !
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EUOL has already said in his annotations that TLR is in fact, Rashek. Zane quiets the voice by cutting himself. EUOL has actually given us a clue about Hemallurgy when he mentions it in the related MB2 annotation. Alendi's remorse is not just who he has personnally killed, but those who fought and died in the wars fought while he ruled. Alendi was the perfect hero. He does what he has to do, but regrets some of the means to achieve it. And as far as WOT goes, yes, those who could learn to channel chose to use it. However, those born with the spark had no choice but to learn to control it, as they would one day channel no matter what. With the True Power, however, Shai'Tain (yes I used his real name) decided who could use it, and it was extremely addicting and dangerous. I thought that was where you were going with this.
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If this is getting into a discussion on the origins of hemalurgy and allomancy I suggest we move our conversation to the hemalurgy and origins of allomncy threads respectively. See you there.
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Ok ,I just thought of something. What if the lord ruler is trapping Ruin by keeping the world in a "preserved state." That would mean Ruin and Preservation's power is affected by the state of the world. By keeping everything the same, and "preserving" the world, he's weakening Ruin, and thus he had to do the things he did, to keep things from getting chaotic, because as soon as things got out of hand, like at the end of book 1 , chaos would ensue, and Ruin would gain power. Perhaps that is what he "did," for the world
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im sorry but i have trouble feeling sorry for a dictator/mass murderer. He kinda sums up his feelings for the skaa in this statement
how many more of you must i kill?
I guess what this comes down to is, do the ends justify the means? Is it alright for someone to subjugate and enslave an entire race as long as he also is supposedly protecting the world? Is it ok to stick huge metal spikes in someone and using unspeakable blood sacrifices tear them from all they have ever known? Is it fine to cull your entire race by carefully controlling their breeding and killing any who may be a threat to your power?
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I'm not saying he was a good guy or anything, if yo uread the rest of the topic, you'll see it's more about the cahracter of the lord ruler, and his motivation: is he enslaving people JUST because he's a power hungry lunatic, or is there something more. We're not discussing his morality, more his reasons for doing things.
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I agree with Comatose. In no way are we saying that TLR was a loving ruler. He was a tyrant and as such, you can forget about the loving part. What we are truly discussing is, as Marsh, as Vin's Mom, as Zane, was the Lord Ruler a victim of ruin ? Was it ruin who pushed him to kill ? Maybe he did not have Zane's strength to fight the urgency of the killing just like Vin's mom to kill her own daughter and choosing Vin as a princess. This is not the act of a loving mother but can I judge a woman's action if she is driven insane by an outer force ? Can we do the same with TLR ?
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ok, yeah i see what u r saying now. However, if it was Ruin he was keeping in the well, i dont think it was using him very effectively. He basically kept it from escaping from another 1000 years.
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Exactly ! So he was, in a way, saving the world but at a dear cost, wouldn't you say ? If that is what is happening, of course. We'll really know for sure only with MB3.
Your original quote, actually could point to the fact that he wasn't doing it totally by simple free will.
"How many more of you must I kill"
Doesn't "must" indicate an obligation of some sort ?
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What I was trying to say is that he had to enlave the world, to keep it from becoming chaotic, in order to STOP Ruin, not because Ruin was influencing him. I think that because the Lord Ruler kept the whole world stable, and kept chaos at bay, Ruin's power significantly weakened, and Preservation's would have strengthened. That's why he said must, according to him, he msut kill these rebels in order to keep the peace and keep Ruin at bay. This would explain why Ruin was still able to influence a few select hemalurgist: Zane and Vin's mom,. while the lord ruler was in power. No matter how powerful the lord ruler was, he couldn't quash all the chaos of the land, unless he killed every human on the planet (remember the humans are of ruin comment?). So he did the best he could, making a single, unified empire of man, so there would be no more chaotic war, and ruling these poeple with an iron fist, to ensure order, thus preventing Ruin from inlfuencing all but a select few.
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I like your theory, Comatose. As with all theories, I'm suspending full credence until we have more authority behind it. But I do like the causation reversal of having the state of the world affect the relative power of Ruin and Preservation, rather than vice versa. A lot of things make more sense this way, notably it gives TLR at least some rational purpose for his tyranny.
On the other hand, how does the millennial cycle of the well work with this theory?
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That is a hole. And one we don't know much about. All we know is the well gains power and is ready for the taking every thousande years. I find it hard to believe that the Lord Ruler's reign lasted almost exactly one thousand yearsto be a coincidence. There must be a tie there. Who knows what it is?
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This was my revelation
TLR was systematically killing off all the feruchemists, which could have been a VERY good thing, reason being that the making of an Inquisitor requires at least one feruchemist, and now with Ruin having total control over the Inquisitors they can capture and make as many new Inquisitors as they want. So TLR was controlling the amount of feruchemists so he could control the amount of Inquisitors.
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This was my revelation
TLR was systematically killing off all the feruchemists, which could have been a VERY good thing, reason being that the making of an Inquisitor requires at least one feruchemist, and now with Ruin having total control over the Inquisitors they can capture and make as many new Inquisitors as they want. So TLR was controlling the amount of feruchemists so he could control the amount of Inquisitors.
The more I go over things and reread stuff and skim over annotations and stuff, the more I begin to think that TLR was actually trying to do what was best, he just . . . didn't do it in the best manner.
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my thoughts exactly :)
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well he did successfully keep Ruin chained in the Well for over a thousand years, but if you are saying his motivations for doing so were basically good i don't think so. It seemed to me that Kwaan simply found him a ready-made tool to assassinate Alendi. He already hated the man and would not find it hard to take the power in the Well for himself.
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Well, the way I see it, before the Ascension, Ruin was free, much like he is after Vin frees him. Yet he still cannot act unchecked against the world, as Preservation is also freed. Then, at the Well of Ascension, Rashek used the power to imprison Ruin and tap into the power of Preservation. He created the Kandra and Koloss, at least one of which believes itself to be "from" preservation. He then proceeds to do what he can with Allomancy, Hemalurgy, and Feruchemy to insure that he is the only one who will ever be able to access the Well of Ascension, ensuring that Ruin stays trapped forever.
It also ties in to the theory that the state of the world affects which power has the most influence at the moment, if you look at it the right way. (Or it could just be coincidence/another factor that made the Lord Ruler preserve so much in the world.) He was trying to preserve society, and weaken Ruin's influence to less than nothing. He culled out the Keepers because he saw the potential dangers of mixing Feruchemy with Allomancy and/or Hemalurgy, and I assume he used one of his many abilities to override Ruin's control over the Inquisitors. (Or he just didn't know.) He could rule them with an iron fist, control their numbers, and (if he used something like his impressive soothing to ensure control,) limit the power of Ruin by keeping most of his agents close to him.
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But where is preservation? Kandra are of preservation, but are they far off when they say that mistborn are of ruin?
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No Ruin was definitely still chained in the Well. Remember from the MB2 epigraphs, Kwaan was like "we must stop him before he can release the power in there" sry i cannot give exact quotes.
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Preservation is helping the Lord Ruler preserve things would be my guess. With the Lord Ruler in complete control, Preservation is basically given free reign to preserve everything it can, thus leading to the stagnation of society others have mentioned.
Also, perhaps it is not Mistborn who are of Ruin, but humans in general. Humans were around far before the Ascension, and so could have been created by Ruin long before he was imprisoned.
I forgot about that quote, Reaves, and now that I think about it, it might have just been more of what went on before Vin freed Ruin. Nobody went to the Well though, so Ruin slowly started seeping around the edges, changing metalminds and sending the deepness upon the world. Without a Hero of Ages to take the power in the Well and use it themselves, Ruin could possibly tap slightly into it and use it to weaken his prison. Then Rashek went to the Well, took the power, re-imprisoned Ruin as strong as ever, and sat back to wait for the next time he would need to go to the Well of Ascension.
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We don't hear anything from Ruin until after TLR is killed, he could be the 'seal' to the prison.
I have suggested that just the mistborn are of ruin from TenSoon saying that 'we kandra are of preservation and you are of ruin' I still kind of believe this idea, support comes from the mistborn being able to control the Koloss, but I digress. TLR was the lock on Ruin, with him gone Ruin could begin manipulating the world once again.
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I don't know that everyone here will have seen it, but a while back we discussed this and we decided that it's highly possible that the kandra are not actually of preservation and humans are not actually of ruin. We have one source saying this, and it is a kandra. So it's highly possible that TenSoon is mislead, either because the kandra as a whole want to believe that, and hold it as mythology, or because TenSoon himself personally believes that and is wrong.
It's also been theorized that the lord ruler didn't create the Koloss or the Kandra, either. The reason for this is that kandra would seem to be of preservation, and koloss would seem to be of ruin. Yet, theoretically, the lord ruler created both of them with only one of the two forces.
And I think that Ruin could manipulate the world before the lord ruler was gone, just not to as much of a degree.
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yes i quite agree with that, after all most of us think Ruin influenced Vin's mom to....you get the idea. Also with Zane i was under the impression "God" was talking to him his entire life.
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TLR did create the kandra, otherwise why do they call him father? I believe there is a conversation between Vin and TenSoon about this somewhere in WoA...
Have the SI's also been under control the whole time then? It would seem that they would be the most likely to be seeing as how they have basically gone completely over to ruin. Maybe it has to do with being mistborn
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I think that probably Ruin's influence has more do to with how close the Well is to being full. As it approaches the end of it's millennial cycle, Ruin gains more power to enact upon the world. He begins to be able to whisper in Hemalurgist's minds, and when the Well is almost full, take control of their bodies. However, when the Lord Ruler was alive and in power, I think he had a much larger hold on the Inquisitor's minds than Ruin did, and Ruin would have had to be very subtle in his limited manipulations of them.
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so the well refills itself?
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so the well refills itself?
Yes, once every 1,000 years.
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whoa... Did I miss that in the books?
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I don't think it's outright said, but it's definitely inferred from events in the book.
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Guess I'll have to re-read them.. again ;)
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Guess I'll have to re-read them.. again ;)
It's one of those read between the lines things.
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Never been too good at that
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TLR did create the kandra, otherwise why do they call him father?
Why does an adopted child call their adopted parents their mother and father? Quite simply, they're mislead.
they sincerely believe it. The Lord Ruler could easily pull something like that off, just brainwashing the kandra over a thousand years. I just want to point out that our only sources on the origins of kandra are popular belief and the kandra themselves, both of which were STRONGLY influenced by the Lord Ruler.
I think that probably Ruin's influence has more do to with how close the Well is to being full. As it approaches the end of it's millennial cycle, Ruin gains more power to enact upon the world. He begins to be able to whisper in Hemalurgist's minds, and when the Well is almost full, take control of their bodies. However, when the Lord Ruler was alive and in power, I think he had a much larger hold on the Inquisitor's minds than Ruin did, and Ruin would have had to be very subtle in his limited manipulations of them.
My personal theory here has always been that it has to do with how much hemalurgical metal is in the body. Because inquisitors have so many spikes, Ruin is able to control them much more fully than he is Vin, who only has one small earring. It could also have to do with the well, but that doesn't really explain the inconsistency between hemalurgists as well.
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TLR did create the kandra, otherwise why do they call him father?
Why does an adopted child call their adopted parents their mother and father? Quite simply, they're mislead.
they sincerely believe it. The Lord Ruler could easily pull something like that off, just brainwashing the kandra over a thousand years. I just want to point out that our only sources on the origins of kandra are popular belief and the kandra themselves, both of which were STRONGLY influenced by the Lord Ruler.
I think that probably Ruin's influence has more do to with how close the Well is to being full. As it approaches the end of it's millennial cycle, Ruin gains more power to enact upon the world. He begins to be able to whisper in Hemalurgist's minds, and when the Well is almost full, take control of their bodies. However, when the Lord Ruler was alive and in power, I think he had a much larger hold on the Inquisitor's minds than Ruin did, and Ruin would have had to be very subtle in his limited manipulations of them.
My personal theory here has always been that it has to do with how much hemalurgical metal is in the body. Because inquisitors have so many spikes, Ruin is able to control them much more fully than he is Vin, who only has one small earring. It could also have to do with the well, but that doesn't really explain the inconsistency between hemalurgists as well.
The kandra live along time no? Unless TLR was completely controlling them with allomancy I see no reason they would have been brainwashed.
I agree with the second point thought, as it is Ruin more or less completely controls the Inquisitors.
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Yes hey live a long time, but not THAT long. Even so, brainwash isn't that hard to accomplish.
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I still don't think he completely brainwashed them. He took the power for himself and probably created allomancy, koloss, and kandra. I'm going to take what the book says for fact this time.
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About the Lord Ruler planning everything out, and knowing what was going on with the prophecy and the well...
I think it was just spurr of the moment, I think Kwaan only instructed him to kill Alendi. From what we read, Kwaan doesn't want the power to be taken, or released. And in the book, when Sazed and Twyndil are discussing, it comes up that from the writings they have dicserned that Rashel was a man of wild temperment whose motivations are based on envy and hate, and ALendi wasa good an had a worthy temperment. We know this is not changed by Ruin because it shows up in the bumps and on the plates.
Kwaan also only says he had instructed Rashek to lead ALendi astray, he says nothing of telling Rashek about his suspicions, by guess, is Rashek wouldn't get it, and think Kwaan is crazy like everyone else. I think Rashek didn't need a reason, he just really wanted to kill Alendi, and after that... Perhaps the Mist SPirit got him to take the power at the well: that's what it tried to to with Vin.
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He knew where Alendi was headed, and when Kwaan told him to lead him astray or killed him he could have inferred that his uncle wanted him to take the well for himself.
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I still think, Rashek just really really really wanted to kill Alendi, and the well thing was more of an afterthought, maybe it wasn't the mist spirit, maybe PReservation inside him took over, maybe Preservation was in Alendi, and RAshek killed him in a way that brought him into himself, and when he took the power, Preservation showed him how to preserve the world, and Ruin saw that Preservation was in a feruchemist!
Sorry, I keep going on about this, I must be really tired, really excited, or really insane, or all three!