Author Topic: Batman Begins (no spoilers)  (Read 9685 times)

Fellfrosch

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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2005, 03:08:52 PM »
Well, nice to have you--make sure to read the FAQ and introduce yourself, both of which threads can be found in the Site News section of the boards.

For everyone else, this is my brother in law. When reading his opinions on movies, keep in mind that he totally loves Pearl Harbor, and once told me that The Fast and The Furious was going to sweep the Oscars. :)
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chill

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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2005, 03:11:48 PM »
ahh...and we see the pains of reviewing a film with the popcorn still stuck in one's teeth!  yes, this is true...but I have successfully picked the best picture winner 6 times in a row!  and, I went 85% at the Tony's
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Fellfrosch

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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2005, 03:13:44 PM »
I missed the Tony's this year--who was the big winner?
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chill

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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2005, 03:22:58 PM »
while i whole-heartedly believe that "the 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee" was a superior show...not at all surprisingly "Spamalot" won best Musical.  i have the sound track...it's really not very good.  
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Entsuropi

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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2005, 03:47:25 PM »
Is this the point where SE points out he has 3 children?
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2005, 04:03:42 PM »
well, I assure you that I a) have three children with vigorous imaginations who I love bonding with, b) have a father with home I joke and share stories with often, and c) have a vigorous imagination, to which most everyone here will testify to. I'm smart enough and qualified to understand the movie. It just sucked.

At least, that's how I feel about movies where the point boils down to "lying about your past and never admitting the truth is better than trying to overcome the issues between you and your son," and the director does a painfully bad, and obvious, job of trying to manipulate you into "feeling good" so you can ignore the major thematic, plot, and character problems.

It was of the same sub-genre as Second Hand Lions, which was more cohesive, better directed, and more sensical. It also had more engaging stories and had a more satisfying way of looking at story-telling as a tool for relationships.

As for "Nightmare," I'm not sure why you think any of that is a defense for it. If it wasn't "for me" <insert P-A reference> then why should you, burton, or anyone be bothered by the fact that it didn't impress me? And if he did it in a day, then all I can say is that he should have spent several more so it could have been a good movie.

Beetlejuice, on the other hand, I will admit was startling and odd (and Ryder did a much better job than Keeton in that one), but only mildly amusing. I actually listen to Day-O a lot, and had forgotten it was in the flick. I'm more inclined to think of the Muppet Show episode guest starring Harry Belafonte when that comes up (it was, after all, funnier and better directed).

You are constantly condescending about Nolan (calling him an upstart, for example) but what specifically do you have against any of his films? If you have no reasonable criticisms, then how can you argue that it's "ignorant" to say he's a superior director? Note that establishing that Burton has made more films does not make him better. I would say a fair measure is to say that the general quality, taking in all the director's works, is a fair way to judge his quality. Nolan has a solid record, with little to no failure. Burton has an up and down record.

edit: I was told this last paragraph was unclear, I shall attempt to redraft it.

If we say that a few good movies excuses a director from his failures, then George Lucas is the greatest director ever, because he made the first Star Wars flick (not to mention American Graffiti). ANd no one in their right mind would argue he was that good, given the filmmaking he did with epI and EpII. If you HAVE no failures, and a track record, then you are hardly an "upstart" you are a good director. And if you're a good director, then it is hardly poor thinking to argue that he's superior to another good director.

Allison Hill

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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2005, 07:25:36 PM »
I tried to register and it won't let me.  For the record I would like to say that I agree with all that about The Incredibles.  It IS the best superhero movie ever made AND the best Pixar movie ever made by far.  

As I said before, if you didn't like Big Fish, you need to watch it again.  I didn't like it when I first saw it, (to be fair I was in and out of the theater changing and nursing my son).  But when my husband bought it I figured I had to give it another chance, and I thought it was wonderful!  Maybe like me, your children were distracting you when you watched it.  Because I cannot think of another reason you would honestly not like that movie.  

As far as Nolan being an upstart, I don't think I would classify him that way, but just because he created a world for Batman that is so different (and preferable to you) from Burton's world, doesn't mean that he is better than Burton has ever been.  Superhero movies, like it or not, are visual movies.  If you make a movie from a comic book, people aren't going to see it for the intellectual stimulation.  They want to see the action and the design, and if the acting is good that's even better.  Schumaker failed miserably, Raimi was wonderful (another director I seek out), and Burton was fantastic.  

And where did all this Keaton bashing come from?

Spriggan

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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2005, 07:29:10 PM »
LIES!!! Batman Begins is like 1 billion times better then the Incredibles, heck the originaly batman movie (the one with Adam West) is better then the Incredibles.
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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2005, 07:38:46 PM »
Quote
As I said before, if you didn't like Big Fish, you need to watch it again.  I didn't like it when I first saw it, (to be fair I was in and out of the theater changing and nursing my son).  But when my husband bought it I figured I had to give it another chance, and I thought it was wonderful!  Maybe like me, your children were distracting you when you watched it.  Because I cannot think of another reason you would honestly not like that movie.  

you might want to re-read my post then, because I gave the basic reasons I didn't like it. the premise seems to be that if you want to be happy you have to not only accept that your parents have faults, not only hold them entirely guiltless for their lies and indescretions, but to ACTIVELY PARTICIPATE in those issues. Other wise you are not a good son. The parent need not change, the problem MUST be in the offspring.

I need not tell you what that's a crock of.

Quote
As far as Nolan being an upstart, I don't think I would classify him that way,

Chill said that exact word.

Quote
Superhero movies, like it or not, are visual movies.  If you make a movie from a comic book, people aren't going to see it for the intellectual stimulation.  

You SO did not go there. Seriously, you want to take that back before I, and half of the rest of the board, explain to you what comic readers are like. Probably you're not aware of the grant I received to research and present a paper on comic books as a medium. Or the work of Will Eisner. Or Scott McCloud. And you've certainly not read McLuhan. And you've never read The Spirit, or Kingdom come, or Peter david's work on Hulk, Supergirl, et al, or Moore's comics, or so forth. To even imply that superheroes or comic books are only visual and are devoid of intellectual presence shows an extremely deep and abiding ignorance of the medium and it's audience.

Skar

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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2005, 07:53:59 PM »
e!  Keep your voice down.  You'll wake the preconceptions.

;)
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Fellfrosch

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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2005, 07:57:53 PM »
I knew as soon as I saw Allison's crack about comics that SE was going to come down on her like a ton of bricks. But to be fair, she's talking about superhero movies, not comicbooks, and the audience for each is very different. The primary audience for a superhero movie is, much as we hate to admit, bored teenagers on summer break--and I don't think that any of us can make a useful comparison between that and the work of Will Eisner.

That being said, Bryan Singer and Sam Raimi and (from what I hear) Christopher Nolan have made great strides toward creating a more human, more literate form of superhero movie that need not rely purely on effects.

Allison, email me at editor AT timewastersguide DOT com and I'll register for you, then send back the username and password and so on. If you're going to be posting, you need to register--you're missing out on valuable experience points.
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Entsuropi

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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2005, 08:00:24 PM »
/me hands a spade to allison

When will you accept that making sweeping generalisations and stating that opposing viewpoints are merely 'wrong' or 'did not pay attention' does not a compelling arguement make.

Humans are different in many ways. Ignoring our tolerance for chocolate, one of the biggest is the different ways we perceive and interpret things. For example. I look at a british flag, and associations such as 'good' 'patriotism' and 'killing french' arise. JamPaladin could look at the same flag, at the same time, in the same place, and think 'british' 'annoying' and 'self important'. Does this make him wrong? Or me wrong? No. It means that our different experiences and personalities resulted in different results arriving in our mind.

I've argued along similar lines before, and SE stopped talking to me for a week because of it (giving me the highscore), but it bears repeating. Saying that SE is unimaginative and doesn't pay attention is not a valid way to go about saying how much you like a director.



And on the subject of comics being a purely visual thing, I demand, demand, that you give evidence of comics you have read to support this claim.
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

Fellfrosch

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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2005, 08:04:39 PM »
Like I said, she never knocked comics--she knocked comic movies. Which, statistically, are as brainless as she says they are.

By the way, Allison--if you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open sewer and die." --Mel Brooks

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Spriggan

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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2005, 08:08:44 PM »
Yea honestly why are you taking people not likeing Burton as much as you as a personal attack and then trying to insult various forum members with rude and ignorant statements?  The ONLY reason you're not getting a harsher treatment on this is because you're Fell's sister but you don't sound related to him and Mustard due to your need to try and demean and insult everyone who disagrees with you.  Not agreeing with someone is not equal to thinking that person is stupid, we don't think that way about you and think you should respect us the same way.
Screw it, I'm buying crayons and paper. I can imagineer my own adventures! Wheeee!

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Re: Batman Begins (no spoilers)
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2005, 09:43:34 PM »
Fell, I'm going to point you back to the other thread a while back when we (read "I") ennumerated the comic-based movies that we knew of and categorized them. Even taking the most conservative estimates from reactions to my list, it still leaves somewhere around 25% of the films being "good" at a minimum. That's putting all the "average" into the vapid categories you're talking about. That indicates, to me, that superhero-based movies, on the whole, have a much better track record than other genres of film. yes, there were horrible punisher, captain america, and supergirl films, but there were also excellent Superman, Spider-Man, and X-Men films. The generalization she made (being generous and ignoring the connection made DIRECTLY to their source material) is still very unfair and not accurate.

I will point out that, in my book, 25% is a better track record than Burton has.