D&D 3e mark II WWYD

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Lets say tomorrow someone handed you a golden ticket and sent you off the RPG factory filled to the brim with ompahloompahs and mad reclusive game designers and said
"Here you go my boy (or girl), WOTC's latest project D&D 3e. Its yours change it around how you want it."

What would you do?  

[Entsuropi]

I would make it vampire: the masquerade.  

[Slant]

I would steal an oompahloompah.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I'd want a goose that lays gold eggs for Easter.

[Fellfrosch]

Just a goose? I want a feast--I want a bean feast.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

wow, this turned into a funnier thread than I wanted,

I expected people had some grievences against 3e.

Guess not

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

You made a Willy Wonka reference, what did you expect.

Really, it's D&D. You either like it or you don't. YOu don't turn it into a different game. The only thing that REALLY needs fixing is the rule on Attack of Opportunity. THere's a lot of phraseology and a few organizational things I'd change, but other than that...

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

You just listed a lot of stuff in a little bit of type.

What do you mean by a lot of phraseology and organization?

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Actually, I listed 2, maybe three things. Depending on how you count.

The phraseology: the wording on AoO is abominable, and they make no effort to say it differently when they "clarify" it. Plus the rule's no good so it doesn't matter. Maybe I'd list out all the types of bonuses and how stacking works in one place too. But I think they were trying to make the "types" unrestrictive, so you could come up with new kinds. But you can still do that and include all the cannonical kinds in one place.

Organization: I'd put all the magic item tables next to each other instead of scattered, and I'd make the clerical domain reside in the Cleric description, where it's easy to find, or at least include an index listing for it.

That's it. None of that is major stuff. Nor is it a "lot" of stuff.

[Mr_Pleasington]

Why that's easy!

I'd just change it back to the rules of BECM D&D.  Back when the game was fun to both play and run and not mired in and ungodly amount of unneeded rules.  Back when the DM actually had to think and be creative instead of just a referee.  Back when things were fun...

[42]

The simplicity of BECM D&D can never be understated. It also was so adapatable to house rules. That's the only thing that really bogs down 3e is its lack of  unity with house rules.

Actual I think I would bring back some incarnation of spelljammer for 3e. Just ignoring a some of spelljammers annoying ideas.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Now, if you're going to have an opinion about a game we're just going to have to ask you to leave.

Oh... wait...

I think you over-rate BECM and under-rate the adapability of d20. I've done a lot of changes and not had balance problems. Perhaps it just takes a creative DM.... (not to throw that back at you).

[Mr_Pleasington]

It's difficult to be a creative DM with 3E, because the system shackles you.  As I've mentioned before, it's difficult to adapt or change anything major because the system crumbles like a house of cards.  Plus, virtually every rule imaginable is spelled out for you.  I hate that.  Some like it though.  

Give me a loose, fast system any day. Something that feeds creativity instead of stifles it.  I'd rather make up a situationally appropriate difficulty/test than have the game tell me its a static number every time.  Stifling.

3E kills DM creativity.  World and adventure building, not so much, as those are hard for a system to affect...but actually running the game.  A computer program can easily DM a 3E module if its programmed in.  Shackles, I say!

[Entsuropi]

Give me a World of Darkness game anyday  

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I feel really bad for whatever unfortunate experience you had with D&D3E, Mr. P. I *never* use a prepublished world or adventure, and I've never had a problem with the system crumbling. I ignore whatever rules I feel are inconvenient, and add others - including fundamental changes to the way magic works, certain combat changes, and the reward system.  So I guess I just fail to see this system failure you describe.