3-30- 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Ch. 6 - Ch. 7

[jwdenzel]

Thanks again for reading.  The story is returning to Aric again.

There has been some discussion in previous threads for this story that the narrator isn't really working.  That's excellent feedback, and I appreciate it. I'd like to try and work this out, so any other ideas would be appreciated.

My plan with the archmage narrator was to have him carry us between character POV's.  Each time the chapter POV switches, the narrator is there to "pull us away" from one character and lead us to the next.   I do not anticpiate there being a lot of POV changes.  75% of the book is from Aric's POV.  The other 25% will be from Nola's, and one other character you have yet to meet.

One idea which was suggested (and I had initially ruled out while writing) was to use the archmage as the "bumper" at the start of each chapter.  I'm OK with that, but its sorta become a fantasy cliche IMO.  (Not a bad one.  I just didn't really want to use it for this book.)

So once more, because we are switching from Nola's POV (in the chapter prior to this) back to Aric, I inserted a narrator section.

Thoughts?

Thanks again!

[ryos]

I tried to like the narrator this time around. The little grandmother story was actually pretty touching. The problem is that it feels like an irrelevant tangent. Yes, it was nice...but it doesn't seem to have much to do with anything. Aric isn't actually lost; he knows exactly where he is. It's just that his mobility has been quite restricted by the destruction of his fleet.

While I feel like I don't have enough information yet to make an unequivocal recommendation, my current feeling is still that the story would flow much better without the narrator. When I say I don't have enough information, I mean that I still have questions like: does the narrator ever participate directly in the story, beyond just telling it? Or, why is this story important to him (i.e. why does it matter to us that he's telling it)? If the answers to those questions are "no" and "it's not, really", then I feel that I can unequivocally recommend he be cut.

One idea which was suggested (and I had initially ruled out while writing) was to use the archmage as the "bumper" at the start of each chapter.  I'm OK with that, but its sorta become a fantasy cliche IMO.  (Not a bad one.  I just didn't really want to use it for this book.)

I think your first instinct was right - it was a bad suggestion. Please don't follow it.

The problem, of course, then becomes - what of the prologue that I liked so much? You may have to cut that too, just because it doesn't really make much sense who's talking. If you made it a character in the story who is telling about their accomplishments, it might just be made to work.

On to more specific feedback. I'm still liking your writing style, though again, it needs a copyedit. I quite liked the mystical dream sequence, the involvement of the moon, and the way it transitioned to Aric waking up on the beach. I do have a bone to pick, though:

The first light he saw was from the silver moon. It was just a crescent, waxing from new. Surrounding it, almost protectively, were clusters of stars. They twinkled in the nimbus light of the moon.

As an astronomy nerd, I know that it takes a very bright star to be visible right next to even a crescent moon. A cluster of such stars would either be about as large as the moon, or appear as one very bright object to the naked eye.

This is something very few readers would object to, so it's probably pretty minor. Unfortunately, I'm one of those people, so I'm calling you on it.

Now as he floated on some charred planks and rope...

Minor continuity error. I believe that, last time we saw Aric, he was clinging to a barrel.

Another nerdy thought: how cold is this water, and how long has Aric been in it? Even 80 degree water will give you hypothermia if you stay in it long enough (this is why scuba divers always wear wetsuits no matter how warm the water is). I feel like he should be colder than he is (indeed, perhaps cold enough that he no longer feels it). You may want to read up on hypothermia a bit, just to be safe.

One last thought before I go. I'm not really sympathizing with Aric as a character at this point. That could be your intent, and I know that not all characters are sympathetic to all people, but I just don't really like the man. This leads me to the opinion that two chapters of his pining is a bit much. I think the most extreme was this:

He closed the man's eyes and held the stranger in his lap...The howl raged out of Aric and down the beach. In the forest behind him, a flock of birds took flight. Hours passed, and the sun was already touching the tree tops, making its final descent to the western horizon.

Are we to understand that he sat listless in the sand for several hours, with the head of a dead stranger in his lap? Seems a bit over the top. We know that he's going to be hurting; several thousand people are dead and he feels responsible, his mission is a complete failure, he's stranded on an unfamiliar (and, judging by the reception, hostile) island, and, on top of it all, he just lost his most precious possession. This may be one of those times where you can show a little less and tell a little more. I think that, if you can pull back just a bit and not show so much of his self pity, it would make us exercise that intuitive empathic understanding, helping us to engage in the story.

As I type this, I'm thinking "that may be bad advice," but it's my instinct. I'll let others weigh in either to confirm or deny.

I'm feeling like I put too much negative and not enough positive in this post. I'm sorry; I hope you don't feel like I'm tearing you down. I really do like this story; I think it has a lot of potential; I just didn't find much to like in this section.

[jwdenzel]

Hi Ryos,

Thanks very much for all this excellent feedback.  All of its great.  And seriously- no need to apologize for any "harshness".  Not for one moment did I take it like that.  I'm glad you're enjoying things, despite its flaws.

*sigh* You might be right about the archmage narrator "Darling".  It might need to go.  The narrator IS a character that well see and Aric will interact with in a few chapters.  I'd like to keep these parts around, but you may be right that I need to tie it more closely to the story.  Or, at least, show how it relates.  All those "ramblings" that the narrator speaks about very much tie into the end of the story. 

At some point I might do a breakdown of each entry the narrator has and see if I can work a mini plot into it. Something to tie those ramblings together and make it more relevant for the reader.

As an astronomy nerd, I know that it takes a very bright star to be visible right next to even a crescent moon. A cluster of such stars would either be about as large as the moon, or appear as one very bright object to the naked eye.

Guilty.  I admit I was just in love with the image of the stars "protecting" the moon. I'll rephrase.

Are we to understand that he sat listless in the sand for several hours, with the head of a dead stranger in his lap? Seems a bit over the top

Excellent point.  It does feel over dramatic, huh? 

Also, in the previous chapter we saw Nola finding bodies on the beach.  I'd prefer to not repeat that imagery, so I might skip it. 

Another nerdy thought: how cold is this water, and how long has Aric been in it? Even 80 degree water will give you hypothermia if you stay in it long enough (this is why scuba divers always wear wetsuits no matter how warm the water is)

Damn, you're good.  I -did- think of this as I wrote it, but I picture them being right at the equator. Tropical island ahead (well, the one in the water anyway!)  I'll do my research.  And then find some way to make it work. LOL

Thanks again
J

[ryos]

I'm glad you didn't take it the wrong way. I always worry whenever I dump a load of critique on someone if they're going to respond well.

Damn, you're good.  I -did- think of this as I wrote it, but I picture them being right at the equator. Tropical island ahead (well, the one in the water anyway!)  I'll do my research.  And then find some way to make it work. LOL

If they're at the equator, the water probably isn't cold. Unless there's some monster arctic current screwing with water temperatures, of course. If we're talking 80 degree water here, his level of coldness is probably about right, but then, you may not want to describe the water as cold.

[jwdenzel]

Yeah good point.  I'll mention that its a warm...sorta.. cold.  Yeah. ;-)

Remember in TITANIC when Kate Winslet is floating along on that piece of wood?  She was nearly freezing to death, and it was implied that she was there for a while. 

Now if Hollywood could get away with that....   (I read somewhere that the water for that movie sset was in the mid-80's....spoiled actors!)

[ryos]

Now if Hollywood could get away with that....

I've often wondered why we let Hollywood get away with murder on issues of accuracy. For some reason, we hold the written word to a higher standard than film. (I'd actually love it if Hollywood would get their collective acts together, but I don't see it happening any time soon.)

[RavenstarRHJF]

Great chapters!  I thought the narrator transitioned better this time.

I also liked the artistry with the waking and dreaming parts of Aric's journey to land.  You may want to add some hints that time is passing though; just a sentence here or there about the sun burning down on his head.  You already have plenty about the stars and moon (very well done, I might add!).

One of the things that really got me was the continued reiteration that he was bone-deep cold.  Now, I get that he was in water for at least two to three days, and that he probably has hypothermia because of that.  But wouldn't he warm up pretty quickly if he was moving around in the sun for a whole day?  Now, granted, he's got sunburn (and I'm actually surprised he doesn't have sunstroke what with the lack of fresh water the last couple of days) which would mean he'd get cold pretty fast after the sun went down.  But while it's still up? Meh, I don't know about that one.  You could explain it by saying he's got fever from the combination of sunstroke, hypothermia, and lack of fresh water.  Oh, and shock, let's not forget that he's in shock over what's happened...

And that's another thing.  He hasn't had anything to drink for a long time.  Wouldn't the first thing he did be to find a source of fresh water?

I didn't have so much of a problem with him sitting there holding a stranger's dead body for a while- at the very least, you described it well.  A couple of hours would be a bit long for a complete stranger, but maybe you could have him find Pellis' body or something like that (unless he shows up again later).

I vaguely remember him not managing to get off all of his armor.  Did I miss something, or is there a reason he wouldn't try to use what he still had to start a fire?  Trying to get sparks by scraping the edge against a stone would seem like an easier way than rubbing sticks together.

Overall, very nice chapters!

[jwdenzel]

Hi Ravenstar,

Thanks for the great feedback. I appreciate it.  I'll likely implement most of what you brought up. (Good call on using his armor bits to spark the fire.  I had forgotten about that. Mostly my intent was just to show how primitive he had to be there)

And that's another thing.  He hasn't had anything to drink for a long time.  Wouldn't the first thing he did be to find a source of fresh water?

Finding water is the initial goal of the next chapter. I actually address it a lot in that one. 

As to whether or not he would try to find water before getting a fire.... hmmm. I need to think on that.  It's a tropical island, so it's probably not too cold at night, actually. But by the time he's in a right mindset, it's getting dark. ANd who would run into a foreign dark forest at night?

Thoughts?

I didn't have so much of a problem with him sitting there holding a stranger's dead body for a while- at the very least, you described it well.  A couple of hours would be a bit long for a complete stranger, but maybe you could have him find Pellis' body or something like that (unless he shows up again later).

It's a good idea.  I'll adjust that scene, but not put Pellis in.  You'll have to RAFO to see what happened to him.

[Reaves]

HA! finally got to it. I apologize for taking so long...

As usual, I really liked the prologue. I would even suggest trimming it down a bit to make it even more effective.

It is simply up to us to
choose whether or not to follow it, and brave the uncharted
portions.
Let us return to Aric once more. He is as lost as the child
I once was, but has no map that he can see. No kind grandmother
to comfort him and kiss his insecurities away.
Perhaps some men must write their own maps afterall.
Sink now into him. Feel the chill breath of the ocean upon
our skin....
Aric

In my opinion you should actually delete the red parts and I think it would be quite simply AMAZING.
If the full force of my divine opinion is not enough to sway you...
1. The first red part really doesn't tell us anything we don't already know. I think every single point of view from this mage guy has led into Aric's POV. And the bit about where he has no map is made redundant by the sentence after it. And the very last sentence, while it gives a nice image, is not as strong as the sentence right before it.
It may seem like a minor thing but I feel really strongly about this 

Something up in the sky called to him; sang his name. He
searched, turning his face to try and find the source of the
song, but there was nothing. Had he dreamed it?

does he know the mage is watching? that WE are watching?

I want to say again that you are able to paint a very clear image of what is going on. I can see everything very easily.

To me, it looks like you tried to give the writing a sort of drowsy, disoriented feel while Aric was floating in the ocean, but you didn't take it far enough. This is something I personally don't really know how to do, but I've seen it done very well.

atrophied from disuse.

I'm not sure if atrophy is the word you are looking for here. To me, atrophy implies LONG disuse -- weeks, not a day or two. Not absolutely sure on that though 

  He gasped and sputtered, the salt water overloading his
mouth.

Huh? What does "overloading" mean here? Overpowering his mouth? I don't get it.

The scene on the beach took a page or two to really get started, but it was very well executed. Him clawing into the mud, and then getting up, and the shadow of the floating mountain falling on him...very nice.

  As he stared in wonder, he saw it was still high
enough to be utterly out of reach to him. As well try to get to
the moon.

This doesn't really tell us anything. When I started reading your description I had already assumed it was hundreds of yards in the air. Then you dispel the false assumption that it was really about to land on him, which I don't think anyone would have thought, and then you say getting to the moon is just as easy, which takes me in the other direction. I understand that getting to the moon is just an expression, but now I have to wonder how high up is it really?
A long explanation for why I didn't like two sentences, but there you go.

The bit where Aric is finding bodies didn't really connect with me that well. He already knew the entire Fleet had been destroyed. I don't think seeing a few bodies would spark such a primal reaction from him. Also, he is a high-ranking naval officer. He has surely seen death before, and the massive scale of this catastrophe would be more likely to provoke numbness, in my opinion.

From what we've seen of Aric so far, it seems like he would be a man to cling to formalities in a time like this. I liked that you had him give the dead people a formal burial. I just wanted to add though that you could use this as a chance to introduce to us a bit further the religion of the Empire. (It is an empire, right?  )

Now, a thousand leagues and half the world away from its
origin, Aric held one of two that he had won.

Interesting. Very interesting.  I sense a story here 

It was like trying to walk a razor
narrow path while carrying a huge bundle.

Sentence feels a bit awkward. Maybe take out the narrow? But that's just a quick and dirty fix, I'm sure you can think of something better.

  The energy was not limitless, so he
had to choose wisely when to use it.

Now we understand why he didn't use it a long time ago. I wonder if it can gain power by killing other creatures, like the sword did.

"Kaa-Shtaa," he chanted

...and that was utterly unexpected. Perhaps a tad dissapointing? I had no inkling that your magic was language-based. Obviously this is your world and you know it best, but is the chanting really important? Unless you have something that makes it different from other language-based magic systems used in other books, I would seriously consider taking it out. Its common enough to become a trope/archetype in itself, and is used quite often.

The cold returned, and it
took a long time before Aric found the will to begin rubbing
sticks together.

Very nice line.

On the second attempt at the sticks, his flame held, and he
finally set his fire. He curled around the rising fire, his
body convulsing with bone-aching chill.

WILSON!!!!!



Given all the great concluding sentences packed into this submission, your final lines fall a bit flat. But only compared to what you've just shown us. I really enjoyed this read.


ABOUT THE WATER: Hum. It didn't become an issue for me until I glanced at Ravenstar's post halfway through your submission...I don't know if I would have thought of it on my own. Sorry, I know that isn't much help to you

[jwdenzel]

Hi Reaves,

Thank you very much for the feedback.  This was really helpful! 

About the "language-based" magic system.  *deep breath*  Go with me on this one right now. The magic system for this book is something I'm extremely excited about. It's actually the foundation of the whole story, and tied directly to the central theme.  I can't wait to show you  guys what its really like.  For now... I appreciate this comment that you made. I am aware that it's a little cheesy how he tries to use the energy in the gem to light a fire. I hope I don't dissuade readers from reading because of that cheesy factor. Because the good stuff is coming up.

So, without trying to defend myself here... I hope you'll just go with it. When you finish the book it will make perfect sense.

(Hint: Didja notice that the spell failed?) ;-)

Re: Wilson.... ROFLMAO   

Thanks for the other comments too. I bookmark all this feedback and go through it every time I revise chapters.

[Renoard]

I'm coming really late to the party and I think most of the comments I might have have been covered.  I will say I found myself sitting this afternoon and wondering bout how he was going to find a way to explore the other islands.

Okay I got the impression that the magic system was drawing parallels to another work, something about "a burning in the belly" or some such.  I didn't find the verbal component in anyway inconsistent or disturbing, but I was a little off put by the way he shrugs off the failure so easily.   A little depression some sulking.  Where's our tortured hero shtick?

Another thing that I'm struggling with is the timeline.  Is the sword encounter with it's master, contemporary with Aric's beaching?  How long was Aric adrift before he washed up.  Is the crystal in his chest linked in some way to the one in the sword hilt?  In that case will he or his corpse become a tool for Nola's rise to greatness?

[jwdenzel]

Thanks, Renoard, for your feedback.   I appreciate you taking the time to read all the submissions leading up to this. 

Oh, and it's music to my ears that you're wondering how he'll get up there to those islands. 

As for the timing of everything: yeah, some people have commented on that. To be honest, I'm a little vague on it too, and I guess it shows.  I'll work that stuff out in my next big revision.

Cheers.