Timewaster's Guide Archive
Departments => Books => Topic started by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on March 17, 2006, 12:06:59 PM
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reference: http://www.timewastersguide.com/view.php?id=1270
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Yeah, I read one of the Luna fantasy books (I didn't realize it was a Harlequin imprint when I picked it up at the library until half-way through the book). Although slightly better than regular romance books, it was still bad. Bad for the genre of speculative fiction in general. The magic system was incoherent, the plot confused and contrived, and the sex...well...waaaaaayyyyy too graphic.
Steer away from reading this stuff, people, much less writing it.
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But surely you could write a paranormal/fantasy novel that had a Romance as the main plot but didn't engage in the bad things Fish listed, or at least did them well instead of badly. You'd probably become an instant best seller in the genre.
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Decent bestselling romance 'paranormal' writer: Diana Gabaldon (true, there's sex, but not as explicit as other books) and Marion Zimmer Bradley, and Robin McKinley.
Other very good 'paranormal' romantic-like writers less well known include Judith Merkle Riley...um, I'll have to think if there are others. There aren't many.
But the whole point of these romance books is the sex, so it's difficult to become a best-selling romance novelist without all that stuff. There just isn't such a large market for it. Unless you're writing for the LDS market, but a lot of that stuff isn't well written, either.
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Steer away from reading this stuff, people, much less writing it.
Unless, you know, you're one of the thousands of people who actually LIKE it.
Sorry, I'm trying to find a non-flame-starting way that expresses my annoyance with your phrasing that as an imperative. I must have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. I like those kinds of books. Well, some of them. Catherine Asaro, for example, writes lovely romance sci-fi.
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I meant the graphic stuff that's written like crap (the Luna book I read was "The Compass Rose" if you're wondering, Fuzzy). I was saying don't read or write the kind of stuff that Fish delineates in her article.
And I haven't heard of Asaro, so I may need to check her out.
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Asaro writes some good stuff, and she has some really fun worldbuilding. (I love her world where all politics are determined by playing quis, which sounds like the most complicated game ever invented. Thus, the perfect game for politicians.) I read some of her stuff back in high school, and I consider it to be more "SF with romantic elements" than "romance with SF elements."
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I am reminded again of the romance novelist who insisted on being given membership in SFWA because she had written a cookie cutter romance that took place on Earth, Mars, and Venus (as opposed to America, Britain, and France). It caused quite a stink until she was finally denied membership because she'd gotten the planets in the wrong order from the sun.
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Skar, that is pretty dang funny.
Edit: So I was reading up on Asaro, and the difference between her and many speculative fiction romance writers is that she actually has science degrees. See, we just need intelligent people writing this stuff (not necessarily with B.S. degrees, but I'm sure you get my point). I'm sure Fish qualifies ;)
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Because it sounds like it will frustrate you, I'm going to go read all the Anita Blake novels I can find.
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You do that, and it won't be me who gets frustrated.
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it will when I gush about them.
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You can tell a soap opera because of the print quality. Most of them are made on very cheap video rather than film, so the picture looks different. That's not what you were going for, but I had to mention it.
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Soap operas are compelling because of scene length.
No seriously, every scene is like a self contained short story, completely independent of another, the fact that they build upon each other is inconseqential, because its told in such a way that the viewer becomes a participant in the scene. When the scene cuts, for a commercial or what not theres a sense of completeness as well as one of suspense.
Also the camera tends to be more focused on the actors and their reactions and less on the cruddy sets, there are a lot of closeups which are more personal and frankly more likely to draw you in.
As for Paranormal Romance,... you mean poorly written Vampire softcore porn right? That seems to be the Paranormal trend right now.
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As for Paranormal Romance,... you mean poorly written Vampire softcore porn right? That seems to be the Paranormal trend right now.
Hmm, why am I suddenly reminded of the Spanish cover for Elantris? ;)
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Part of what annoys me is that some of the Paranormal romance series deal with some interesting ideas or characters and then devolve. I actually liked the first Anita Blake book, before it got graphic and the sex was all the books were about. I also liked the ideas in the Weather Warden books by Rachel Cain, though the focus on the sexual aspect made me want to injure her. There are authors that manage the balance well, but it requires a steady hand, and too many break down and go for the cheap thrill.
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I'm a little confused here. What, exactly, are you defining as "paranormal romance"? Is it stuff specifically being marketed that way? Or is it anything with sci-fi/fantasy themes and romance/sex? Or is it just anything with sci-fi/fantasy themes that seems more interested in the romance than in the rest of the story/magic? I'm just having difficulty figuring out exactly how to define the term in my head.
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I meant the graphic stuff that's written like crap (the Luna book I read was "The Compass Rose" if you're wondering, Fuzzy). I was saying don't read or write the kind of stuff that Fish delineates in her article.
I'd like to point out that Compass Rose was the book Amazon paired with Elantris for many months, further proof that my brother writes Romance and not Fantasy.
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Even apart from the sub-standard writing, I have a love-hate relationship with romance novels, which is REALLY ironic, since the thing I hate most about standard romance novels is the fact that no one seems to be able to write a romance without a love-hate relationship.
I can't stand 99% historical romance, because it's all "high-spirited woman meets reformed rake and they fight for 300 pages". ARGH. I don't think a relationship should be based on fighting. Complain all you want about the Weather Warden series but at least I like reading about David and Joanne's relationship. I get so mad at most of the protagonists in romance novels I just want to climb in and slap them. So I can only read romance novels wherein the characters have problems with *outside* forces trying to keep them apart, instead of ones where they sabotage their own relationship because of stupid decisions and lies.
This is one of the reasons I like Catherine Asaro. I was very disappointed in her fantasy series though. Very bland, she should stick to sci-fi.
And all the LDS people can flame me or call my bishop, or whatever, but I don't mind the smut. I'd rather read a book where the characters are having a good relationship and getting it on every other chapter than fighting and insulting each other and lying to each other and being stupid for the whole book.
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Paranormal Romance is the name of a genre. I wasn't referring to books that are shelved in sci-fi and fantasy that happen to have romance plots or subplots, sex or no sex. Paranormal romance is shelved with romance, but it's got paranormal elements to the story, like a cookie-cutter romance lifted into a fantasy setting, essentially, though I hear there are some in contemporary settings with paranormal elements as well.
And I'm not convinced that it's all crap. What I read sure was, though.
further proof that my brother writes Romance and not Fantasy.
Oh please. I've read his "sex scenes." Give me a break.
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I would suggest "Uncertain Magic" by Laura Kinsale if you want to read what I consider to be a good Paranormal Romance. (Involves telepathy, and fairies.) Also, very little fighting!
Oh please. I've read his "sex scenes." Give me a break
My brain just shut down to protect me, I think.
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Apparently Brandon has no prowess in the prose bedroom.
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Mcfish you must never write one of these. how will you roll your dice without fingers?
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Oh please. I've read his "sex scenes." Give me a break.
Harsh. When even a mans written sexual prowess is called into question, theres issues :P
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Ironically, McFish might be able to successfully write romance novels because she could steer clear of what she hates about them. I mean, we all read books for the romantic subplots, right?
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Talk for yourself mister :P
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I mean, we all read books for the romantic subplots, right?
I most certainly do enjoy books with romantic subplots. I'm just a sap for a good love story (as my writing group is discovering).
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Ironically, McFish might be able to successfully write romance novels because she could steer clear of what she hates about them. I mean, we all read books for the romantic subplots, right?
That would work were it not for the spiky thing and the eleven story building.
Hey Jeff, do you know who HepCat is?
Y'all should really go to this thread
http://www.timewastersguide.com/boards/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1051196804
and introduce yourselves.
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what we talking about
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Shhh.... This discussion is for grown ups. Go back and sit at the kids' table.
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Hepcat is Tim. So the 11 story building was for just the label of "romance novel" rather than the elements you discussed?
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Hey Jeff, do you know who HepCat is?
http://www.timewastersguide.com/boards/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1051196804
and introduce yourselves.
I'm hurt :(. and to think I took a bullet for you a couple of weeks ago ;).
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Hey! You got your share of the cut for that. ;)
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yeah my Nyssian Dagger of death.
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at least it wasnt a Daewoo Dagger of Death
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I most certainly do enjoy books with romantic subplots. I'm just a sap for a good love story (as my writing group is discovering).
INterestingly, after a discussion with my wife last night, I believe that a romantic subplot *is* her requirement for a good book.
However, I *may* have finally convinced her to read Watership Down last night. I pointed out that the closest thing to a romantic subplot was going off to Efrafa to recruit breeding partners, but I disabused her of hte notion that it is not just an Animal Farm with rabbits as she had previously believed. Apparently, the book report that introduced the book to her focussed a LOT on General Woundwort, despite the religious and mythic tone of most of the book.
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I love Watership Down. It's my family's "car book" The book I read aloud to everyone when we go on long drives. Needless to say it's taken us over a year to get to 3/4s of the way through but...
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Confession: I've never read Watership Down. It's on my mental list of things to read, but never been very high up on that list.
I listen to audiobooks on long car trips, never thought about reading aloud. Then again, I usually do my long car trips solo, so of course I wouldn't be reading aloud. :)
On the subject of romantic subplots, I also prefer there being one. Actually, no, that's not entirely true. I just prefer that stories have some sort of focus on characterization, and for me that has to include the characters' relationships with others, whether that's family members, friends, or romance. I love a good romantic comedy, for example, but couldn't stand to watch it all the time. But I like my action/adventures to have romantic subplots if the situations warrant it. Rush Hour didn't warrant it, for example. But part of the fun of X-Men is the romantic tension between characters.
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at least it wasnt a Daewoo Dagger of Death
you meen my butterknife of death. got one of those too.
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I've never read Watership Down either. It's never been on my list to read. I've always figured, eh, it's about bunnies, how good could it be?
Am I wrong? Should I read it?
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Yes. It is about rabbits, but that doesn't mean that it isn't good. I would definitely recommend it.
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Watership is one of my favorites. It's not just about bunnies, but about social structures, religion, survival, faith, family, stories...it's a good book. I reread it about once a year.
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It's about bunnies, yes.
It's about a bunny who has an apocalytpic vision, who is believed by very few of his community that he tries to save.
Then it's bout their wanderings in the wilderness, and even when they find their promised land, they realize that their community will die if they don't recruit more (specifically, girl) bunnies.
It's about how even having established this home, they are not safe, and they cannot be completely cut off.
It's tragic, beautiful, thought-provoking, and religious. I recommend it strongly.
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fantastic book, and the myths behind it are fascinating as well.
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Watership Down in the Middle School Library with the revolver.
(That's a yes.)
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a kid in 4th grade did a book report on it, I remember he said it was about a boat sinking.
Obviously he got an F.
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That's. Awesome.
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It's been a long time since I've read Watership Down. All this talk is making me want to go read it again.
* Nessa searches through her boxes of books for her copy.
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So, um, fuzzy, I just finished two Catharine Asaro books and I just wanted to say I liked them. Thanks for the recommendation.
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Ok, any of the other ladies on here have recommendations for romances to read that haven't already been made in this thread?
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How about searching the internet for some slash fiction?
Brucha: I've heard a Kirk/Spock/Scotty slash done similarily. It haunts my nightmares, I don't need a wrestling equivalent added. :) "The Vulcan emotion is strong and powerful...I, I can't contain it all..." "You get that thing away from him!"
Jim Smith: So, Kirk and Spock had an orgy and didn't invite Bones? I mean, who's gonna give you more gay sex satisfaction? A Scotsman? Or a guy named "Bones"?
Brucha: Something like that... Scotty stumbles upon them, tries to break it up, and then falls to the passion...
Jim Smith: He's such a slut...
TangleToy: *wipes off screen* I swear. Why I bother trying to drink anything while in here is beyond me.
Quote from bash.org
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Thanks, I've read more than enough of that stuff back in high school to keep me for the rest of my life, though I have to say the best was the Obi-Wan/Darth Maul from the "Sith Academy" website, long long ago back in 2001. Darth Maul has a sith kitty.
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SITH KITTY! SITH KITTY!
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
(pokes digital eyes out with stick)
some of those pictures where just wrong...