Is GURPS dead?

[CivCube]

Of course, it's alive and well with the Fourth Edition.  My question is, is it almost dead in terms of popularity?  It's a shame, since it seems like a good system.

[Spriggan]

Thanks to D20's popularity most non-D20 stuff is dead.  I've played GURPS once several years ago (before D20) but the thing that always annoyed is it's selling point that there are hundreds of books that allow you to customize it how you like.  I hated that because the idea was milked too much, I didn't like having to buy like 3-5 additional books just to play a generic fantasy campaign.

Rules wise I like character creation but the rest of the system is so-so, I didn't care for combat too much.  While I felt it was cinematic I had way too many PCs (4 in the one campaign I played) die from single shots.  And while I've had like results in D20 and other games, I'm a little reckless with my players, they were never you're hit once or twice and you're dead like in GURPS.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

GURPS 4e Is breaking records at SJG. I think they are in a  3rd or 4th printing run already....

The big issue is that they decided to revamp the line, and that means fewer sourcebooks are compatible.

Still Gurps 4e now has the two main books CHaracters and Campaigns, A setting book, magic and fantasy supplements and a whole slew of other stuff in the pipe.

Gurps is definately not dead.

Personally I think a lot of SJGs dead weight was trimmed and the company is stronger than ever.

[Mr_Pleasington]

I completely disagree with Sprig here.  D20 may be a juggernaut, but other game companies are still thriving.  White Wolf and Steve Jackson always do well because they both have a very popular fanbase that keeps them going.  Palladium is the same way.

There are also countless smaller companies (like Pinnacle) who are doing really well.  

You just can't compared success to D&D as it sets the standard way to high.  Just like you can't compare the CCG standard of success to Magic.  They were the originators and by far the most popular.  Surpassing them is virtually unimaginable.

[Spriggan]

note that I said "most" not all nor did I state that I thought GURPS was dead, though I probably should have stated that, I only said what I thought of the system since I don't know how it sells.

As for Mr.P's comment on not comparing to D20, that's one of the biggest mistakes of the RPG community.  They should compare themselves to D&D since it proves that RPGs can sell higher then anyone thought, but keeping their standards low none of these other companies will try and expand their market and the RPG market as a whole.  It's quite sad seeing everyone make excuses for such low sales instead of saying "We can do that too".

[Mr_Pleasington]

But they can't do that.  Well, they can, but it's virtually impossible.

D&D is the ONLY RPG with any brand recognition.  It is also backed by Hasbro so it has far more available funds than any other RPG company out there.  This was true before the Hasbro buyout too, because of Magic's success.

White Wolf is the only company that comes close to WOTC's success and even they're a few rungs down on the ladder.

I hold that even if someone came up with the best RPG in the world that it would never outsell D&D.  It's by far and away the game that most people play and always has been.  It's also the first game that most people play.

I wish other companies could succeed like WOTC, but it's not going to happen.  The hobby is too small.  Look at miniature games for another example of this.  GW has ruled the market and most likely always will.  Warhammer is the mini game that virtually every store carries and that almost every mini gamer has played.  Other companies have tried to oust GW from that top spot, but they've always failed.  This even with the fact that GW has raised their prices to the point that has driven off a lot of their old fanbase.  

[Entsuropi]

Part of the problem is that GW and WoTC have reached critical mass - they cannot expand any more in their given market. They are both trying to expand the market itself (both have released statements saying their goal is to make their respective rulebooks something 'every home will have'), and both are investigating Computer games. In the mean time, they are raising prices in an attempt to have steady profits. However, considering reports that all the 'geek' industries (RPG's, Mini's, Sci/fi & fantasy books) are on a downturn it would look to be unlikely at best.

As a side note, someone (can't remember who now) made a rather disturbing point. The new D&D MMORPG is coming soonish. It is not unrealistic to suppose that if it takes off big it could swiftly surpass D&D itself in profit-making for WoTC. The question is if, at that point, WoTC will not start changing D&D to fit the MMORPG better. After all, it's sound business sense.

[Spriggan]

But they can't do that.  Well, they can, but it's virtually impossible.

Nothings easy though that doesn't mean they shouldn't try.

D&D is the ONLY RPG with any brand recognition.

Then build it.  Palladium is doing that with Video games and a Movie.  WhiteWolf could do it with Exalted (I don't see much success in WoD since it's deals with generic monster types and isn't very main stream friendly).

 It is also backed by Hasbro so it has far more available funds than any other RPG company out there.  This was true before the Hasbro buyout too, because of Magic's success.

Hasbro only spends a limited amount, how I'm not sure, on D&D because it pays for itself and all the licenses bring in more money then the actual RPG books make (Atari just paid a huge amount to re-lincese D&D for another 10 years). There are lots of ways to make money off of an RPG besides book sales.

I hold that even if someone came up with the best RPG in the world that it would never outsell D&D.  It's by far and away the game that most people play and always has been.  It's also the first game that most people play.

If you only deal in constants then things wont change, the only way for D&D to be top dog is for others not to try.

The fact of the matter is RPG companies don't want to try because they're either content or to afraid of taking the risk (which there no doubt is).  D&D didn't become popular just because it was the first or because it's (currently) got lots of cash but because of many factors which other companies can do to.  Remember Video games use to be a niche and no one ever though Atari, then Nintendo wouldn't be number one.  If you don't strive to achieve something then you never will.

[Entsuropi]

To stay on topic, here's a link to Steve Jacksons report to his stakeholders. He states good financial health, but a half year revenue being nearly $3million is low, compared - I believe GW had about $18million in pure profit (might be revenue; been a while since I read that report) a few years back.

http://www.sjgames.com/general/report05.html

[Fellfrosch]

The last numbers I saw split the market up something like this: WotC had 45% (approximately), White Wolf had 13 or 14%, SJG and Palladium fought over third place with about 5% each, and then there are a ton of little games with no significant percentage.

The "rules" of marketing state that no matter how big any of those companies get, those numbers are not likely to change. If Palladium gets huge, the market will get bigger, and WotC and White Wolf and SJG will become better-known and more popular. That's just how it works--the leader in any category is almost always ridiculously bigger than any competitor, and is almost without fail the first name to enter that category. D&D is the biggest because it is the first, and no amount of money or quality is ever likely to change that.

The only way D&D could possibly lose its place is by its own error, as almost happened in the 90s.