Author Topic: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint  (Read 3048 times)

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2005, 02:50:14 PM »
I never said it was a badly written view or skewed balance. I'm just saying I disagree with this particular point.

JP Dogberry

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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2005, 10:10:20 PM »
Yeah, but you're wrong.
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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2005, 12:41:29 PM »
And now he does the DM Guide: http://www.timewastersguide.com/view.php?id=1042&dep=6

I recognize that number crunching is a big sticking point for you, Jam, but I want to point out that the class and experience system in D&D has the best multiclassing options I've ever seen. The ability to take a level in anything, at any time, and create your own character as you go is great, and offers a ton of variety. It's very number-heavy, as you say, but after one campaign in the system I knew it well enough that I didn't notice anymore.
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2005, 12:58:32 PM »
woah woah woah woah. NOW I'm saying it's unfair and unbalanced.

Jam criticized the PHB for not having info about making a character. WHich, I said wasn't fair because I don't *need* that information. Yet the DMG review proceeds to criticize it FOR having material of considerably less use to long time gamers. This pretty much lends credence to my mostly unstated opinion that Jam's perception of the problems with D&D is due primarily to complaints others have given. You criticize one book because it gives stuff you don't need, and criticize another book because it DOESN'T include stuff on the same level.

I don't think you've given it a fair shake, Jam.

I also don't think the XP system criticism is at all accurate. The xp award is for defeating the opponent or overcoming an obstacle. That includes talking your way out of a fight or using skills to get around it -- not just killing it. It does *not* follow that the only benefit is fighting. Other systems that say all humans are all the same fighting capability are the ones that have a poor balance. People who've actually trained and practiced are inherantly better than I am at fighting. We're not ALL the same. ANd what? You don't WANT any rewards for roleplaying? Your review really feels like you went into it looking for ways you could make it more number crunching than it actually is.

which leads me to criticism number three: You pretty much say that the NPC stats chapter isn't useful, because you can make up stats as you go and the stats become to bother some. This also isn't the case. Do what you've been doing: don't assign stats until you need them. Then choose a line on the chart for the NPC when you DO need it. Voila, done, and you don't have to worry about anything being inconsistant. You've get 'em there. You can still modify on the fly, if you're so disposed to do so. There is nothing in that chapter saying it's against the rules to make any changes to those example stats. In fact, if I remember correctly, it mentions customizing them if you need to.

There's no way for you to really know this, but you need to, but that chapter on planes isn't the only information out there about planes. Nor was planescape the introduction of planes. It would be more accurate to say they've abandoned planescape. There is, after all, the Manual of the Planes if you really want more about it. But to be honest, in the thousands of hours I've played D&D, I think I've had characters in other planes less than 30 hours of game time.

So yes, I can see why the game annoys you more than it should. It's because you're determined not to like it for some reason, even if the reason you choose doesn't accurately reflect what the books present, much less how people actually play it.

JP Dogberry

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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2005, 10:30:19 PM »
SE, go back and READ my review.

I am NOT trying to look objectively at the system. I SAID that. I am trying to give, as the title suggests, AN ALTERNATIVE VIEWPOINT.

I never criticised the PHB for not including information I didn't need. I criticised it for focusing on stats before character. I never said I didn't need information on how to develop a character - on the contrary, I quite like information of that nature, to read different people's ideas on it. I think that chapter should have been placed earlier in the book and earlier in the list of how to design a character.

Now, the stuff in the DMG isn't of use to me, nor does it interest me. Did I make a big deal about it? NO. Did I say the complaint was, in fact, spurious and not really fair on the book? YES.

Now, where do you get off saying I am unfair to criticise a book for making a criticism that I SAID and ADMITTED was unfair?

I also never said I wanted a system where all humans were at the same level. I said I wanted a system where all humans with a combat score are equal to other humans with the same combat score. D&D is like this, but the large number of stats make it difficult to judge compared to say, Sword 6 vs Sword 8. My preference for this simplicity is purely opinion. YOU CANNOT SAY THAT MY OPINION IS WRONG. You can disagree, but preference is SUBJECTIVE. Oh, wait, what is my article called again? Oh that's right, AN ALTERNATIVE VIEWPOINT. Namely, my viewpoint. I'm being unfair for expressing my viewpoint in a piece that is designed simply to do that? Did I ever say I was being objective?

I did not say the NPC chapter wasn't useful. What I said was I didn't like the way NPC classes worked. I said that it was more difficult to create NPC stats than it should be, because MY PREFRENCE (yes, that little thing the title of the article says the article is about) is for simple systems like Paranoia XP where I can make stats easily on the fly. What I DID say was that the NPC chapter is extremely useful for making the stats, I'd just prefer not to need it.

Did I say that the stuff in the book was the only information on the Planes? I said the PLANESCAPE setting had been reduced to this token information which isn't particularly useful, and the stuff in the book of planes which I havn't read. YES, I MENTIONED THE BOOK OF PLANES IN MY REVIEW. I'd really like it if when you accuse me of something, it's something I've actually freaking DONE. I happen to very much like the PLANESCAPE setting and find it more interesting to hold adventures on the planes than in generic fantasy worlds.

Now, I concluded saying that the system annoys me more than I should, but I really like it regardless. How does that make me "Determined not to like it?". I said I *DID* like it. I also gave it a thumbs up, positive overall. I said it was good.

Now, I could have agreed with you completely and made a very similar review to the ones we already have, but that would have been useless and redundant. So, I wrote an ALTERNATIVE VIEWPOINT to the books. This is SUBJECTIVE ACCOUNT from someone with a PREFERENCE FOR SIMPLE NARATIVE SYSTEMS. At no point have I tried to hide this fact. So, how exactly am I being unfair? Because the game isn't my style exactly, even though I still like it?

SE, the world does not centre around you. You need to learn than other people have viewpoints. I chose to share mine. You may disagree if you will. But think twice before you falsely accuse me of being unfair and unbalanced over a subjective piece of work, and then criticise me by citing factual errors proving you had not in fact properly read the piece.
Go go super JP newbie slapdown force! - Entropy

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2005, 01:06:04 AM »
I see this ending well

/me says with much sarcasm
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42

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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2005, 01:39:04 AM »
* 42 gets popcorn ready and takes a comfortable seat infront of his computer.*
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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2005, 03:09:02 AM »
JP is trying to turn Gonzo Jounalizm into RPG reviews, this is going to be a fun argument.
Screw it, I'm buying crayons and paper. I can imagineer my own adventures! Wheeee!

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JP Dogberry

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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2005, 03:12:00 AM »
Again, it wasn't a review, it was an "Alternative Viewpoint" article.

And yeah, wouldn't it be great if we had a forum mod right about now. I hear our one stepped down last week because everyone thought he was doing a bad job.
Go go super JP newbie slapdown force! - Entropy

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2005, 04:38:53 AM »
You just stepped down because your an anarchist, and we provided an excuse for you to not be the man.
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JP Dogberry

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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2005, 04:41:10 AM »
Let me tell you a story.

Once there were three people. Two were anarchists and one was The Man. The Man tried to institute law on the anarchists, so the first anarchist socked him on the head and the second cut out his liver and ate it.

The moral of the story is don't get up early, you just might explode randomly.
Go go super JP newbie slapdown force! - Entropy

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2005, 06:19:37 AM »
T minus 2 hours till the fur flies.
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Spriggan

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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2005, 06:49:08 AM »
This is boreing, you're all boreing!

I want blood!
Screw it, I'm buying crayons and paper. I can imagineer my own adventures! Wheeee!

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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2005, 08:58:39 AM »
sorry, I just got here.

Really the only thing I have to say about contradiction is that II said it wasn't fair. If the review says it isn't fair, then well, how is that bad? I dont' think my points were invalid, though I was certainly way too harsh.

I like JP. He's my favorite violent anarchist. I don't want to be hating. So, I'm sorry for being harsh. But not for disagreeing.

sorry, the monkeys are sleeping. so their fur will not fly and they will not spill blood.

/me thiefs some of 42's popcorn.

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Re: D&D: An Alternate Viewpoint
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2005, 09:17:30 AM »
*Spriggan sulks in the corner and puts away his umbrella.
Screw it, I'm buying crayons and paper. I can imagineer my own adventures! Wheeee!

Chuck Norris is the reason Waldo is hiding.