Author Topic: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**  (Read 6911 times)

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2004, 07:49:32 AM »
Quote
But you know what, Im getting on with my life too and Im happier watching the real movies as they were originally released. I think its ironic that a man who testified before congress to keep Ted Turner from colorizing classic films would alter his own films as much as he has and then claim that the audience that like those films isnt worth the chewed up gum on his boot.

Well, that's a ridiculous comparison. Ted Turner is changing OTHER people's movies and has NEVER made a movie. Lucas is revising his OWN work. There's a vast difference there. I truly think you are being unfair to the man. and on that note, how is he taking away the director's credits? Aren't their names still on the credits? It's fine to complain about the changes, but let's stick to charges and comparisons that actually make sense.

There's some merit also in the "Shut up and don't buy it" argument. However, it's hardly final. Who wouldn't want a DVD of the original edition? I mean, I like the spec Ed. and *I* would.

However, while I've heard a lot ofpeople complain that they think the SE "ruined" the movie, no one has told me HOW. How does showing the full Wampa ruin Empire? How does showing Jabba ruin A New Hope? I don't get it.

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Re: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2004, 08:51:17 AM »
Thought I'd post some quotes from an AP interview.

Quote

AP: Why not release both the originals and special editions on DVD?

Lucas: The special edition, that's the one I wanted out there. The other movie, it's on VHS, if anybody wants it. ... I'm not going to spend the, we're talking millions of dollars here, the money and the time to refurbish that, because to me, it doesn't really exist anymore. It's like this is the movie I wanted it to be, and I'm sorry you saw half a completed film and fell in love with it. But I want it to be the way I want it to be. I'm the one who has to take responsibility for it. I'm the one who has to have everybody throw rocks at me all the time, so at least if they're going to throw rocks at me, they're going to throw rocks at me for something I love rather than something I think is not very good, or at least something I think is not finished.

AP: Do you pay much attention to fan reactions to your choices?

Lucas: Not really. The movies are what the movies are. ... The thing about science-fiction fans and "Star Wars" fans is they're very independent-thinking people. They all think outside the box, but they all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I'm making the movies, so I should have it my way.


article I got this from http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132871,00.html
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 08:53:15 AM by Spriggan »
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Re: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2004, 03:34:33 PM »
In answer to your question, Sprig, I don't really see the situations as very similar--my understanding of Lucas' changes to Star Wars is not that he is putting back sections that someone else cut for length, but that he is expanding the film to match some "original" vision that was not technologically possible at the time. If he wants to do that, he has teh right--but I have the right not to like it.

As a more direct answer to your question, it's hard for me to say having never published a novel, but I'm inclined to say that no, I wouldn't republish. Editors are there for a reason--they help you streamline your work to make it more accessible, and more appealing, and just plain better. If my editor cut down my book, and my book went on to become one of the most successful books in the history of the world, I'd be inclined to think that my editor knew what he or she was doing. If I had more that I really wanted to tell, I'd write a new book (possibly a "behind the scenes" book such as Ender's Shadow).
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2004, 04:06:09 PM »
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I'm not going to spend the, we're talking millions of dollars here, the money and the time to refurbish that


Wait a second he already did...


Thats the biggest load of crap I've ever read... he had to scan every single frame of the original movie to make the digital special edition version because in the interviews leading up to the special edition thats what he said they did. It stands to reason that there would have to be a digital copy now without any special effects added in because he had to build on the original effect. He already restored an refurbished it. there has to be some kind of copy left somewhere from the cleaning process.

Well the special effect cuts don't ruin the movie, mostly... but adding Jabba into New Hope was not only redundant, but it was a poorly acted scene with a stupid fake looking very digital looking Jabba (compared to Jedi) getting his tail stepped on by Han Solo.
I had less problems with the edit of Empire, mainly because thats all they did, enhance a few shots and add a scream that I couldn't care less about. But Jedi... Jedi's ending urgh.... showing everyone everywhere celebrating was idiotic, especially showing Courecant,... you know the place filled with Imperial bureaucrats that serve the Empire willingly theyed have to be a little upset rather than happy. Its like Berlin throwing a party after World War II.  I was thinking in terms of leaving some dramatic tension to continue the whole Saga from (and apparently Lucas wasn't)
The music kills it for me too... I heard it in the theaters and it kicked off a switch in my mind I guess, but it ruins it for me.

Eric you ask how he is taking away the directors credits...

Yeah their names are there, but the movies they made aren't. How do we know they wanted the changes, he altered their movies and takes the credit for "improving" them when ultimately they slaved over directing them. My problem is that he acts like he directed all three in all his quotes, and he really didn't.


All of that really doesn't matter too much, because I just like the originals better than the "special editions" which don't add too much special for me.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 04:30:23 PM by ElJeffe »
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2004, 04:54:35 PM »
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Thats the biggest load of crap I've ever read... he had to scan every single frame of the original movie to make the digital special edition version because in the interviews leading up to the special edition thats what he said they did. It stands to reason that there would have to be a digital copy now without any special effects added in because he had to build on the original effect. He already restored an refurbished it. there has to be some kind of copy left somewhere from the cleaning process.


Not necessarily. He might have tossed it. Unlikely, yes, but not impossible. more importantly, though, there is STILL more refurbishing work that that would need to be done, even if he leaves out the new stuff. In your haste to condemn the man, you conveniently overlook the work that would still have to be done.

Quote
Eric you ask how he is taking away the directors credits...

Yeah their names are there, but the movies they made aren't. How do we know they wanted the changes, he altered their movies and takes the credit for "improving" them when ultimately they slaved over directing them. My problem is that he acts like he directed all three in all his quotes, and he really didn't.


then that's not the charge you leveled. For he did NOT remove their credits. They still get directing credit.

Also, is there an interview where they say they hate special edition? Possibly, but I'm not aware of it. It seems to me however, that even this version of the charge is a bit ludicrous. YOu're getting huffy over something that happened to someone else, who isn't complaining about it. Plus their work is still mostly in tact. Most of your complaint is about the one he DID direct, and the one you have significant complaints about that he didn't direct involves one inserted scene. THis is hardly a complete travesty or offense against all that is holy in directing.  

Quote
All of that really doesn't matter too much, because I just like the originals better than the "special editions" which don't add too much special for me.

Then why are you so virulent in attacking them? If they don't matter much, why do you come into a conversation where people are talking about it and start saying cruel things about Lucas? (and to forestall that response, yes, you have, you have called him insecure and immature, as well as saying that he has no regard for other people, and if you deny it I'll provide quotes from your previous posts).

Seriously, I don't care if you like them or not, but I don't find attacks on him or mindless whining about them very productive. If they really don't matter, than let it drop. If they do matter, than talk about the merits of them without attacking Lucas' character directly.

I find the argument about "original vision" a bit of a distraction. Whichever side is right doesn't change anything. I think it's a defense that Lucas has come up with that he didn't need. No, it can hardly be exactly what he was thinking of, but it is, almost undeniably, what he would have done with the resources and the time to think it up. Maybe it was a bad idea for him to go back and revise after release, but it's hardly the first time it's happened with a book or movie. Plenty of people have gone back and re-written previously published works.

So, while he should or shouldn't have done it, it doesnt' matter to me. This is what he thinks it should be like now. And with only two exceptions, I'm not bothered by it -- in fact, I agree with him. Considering we're talking about nearly 6.5 hours worth of filming, I think I can handle something like 60 seconds of bits I don't like.

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Re: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2004, 03:15:06 AM »
Also Jeffe, Jabba was in a new hope originaly but was cut out for time resons, but he was a realy fat human.  When Han steps on his tail he was stepping over a big power cord that was on set.  This was something that was knowen for long before the SE movies came out, the original makeing of movie actualy showed the scene.  Since Lucas was adding a scene that was cut out (ala a directors cut) it only makes scence to digitaly add the slug Jabba so people aren't confused. And in the DVD's they're fixing up the Jabba effect to look better.

And Fell, you never answered SE's question, since you're not going to buy the SE how did any of those changes actualy ruin the films for you?  I'm just astounded by all the hate for Lucas, yet none of the reasons I've ever heard make sence.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2004, 03:19:11 AM by Spriggan »
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Re: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2004, 04:02:12 PM »
Did I ever say that the changes ruined the films for me? I don't believe so. I did say I'm not buying them, though, so I suppose I owe an explanation for that.

For starters, let me say that I like some of the changes--the background stuff in Cloud City is great, and adds a lot of atmosphere. Fixing the blue screen lines around the Rancor is a winderful idea, and I was very surprised they didn't do it the first time around. Replacing the Emperor in ESB is also a good idea, since those eyes are so distractingly wrong.

Some of the changes are pointless, but don't really bother me, such as the (a little overlong) entry sequence into Mos Eisley. The expanded Wampa stuff is, well, expanded. I can take it or leave it.

Other changes irk me quite a bit. I'd seen the original Jabba footage with the old Scottish guy several times, so I wasn't sad to see that brought back, but they way they did it was an absolute eyesore. I'm glad they're fixing it, but the jury is still out on whether it will look good. I disagree with the fact that Greedo shoots first, and that he misses so wildly from only five away--again, they're changing this a little to make Han dodge, but I predict that it will look pretty hokey to alter the film and the characters so drastically like that. Even if it does look good, though, it doesn't change the fact that Han shooting first was a lot cooler (a little cold-blooded, perhaps, but it added a lot to his character).

The musical number in Jabba's palace is a cool idea, and I admire their audacity for putting it in there, but the original band was so much cooler--it looked better, had more personality, and fit into the look and feel of Jabba's palace so much more smoothly. The new band is jarringly different from the tone of the rest of the trilogy, which was probably part of the point, but I don't think it worked at all.

The most greivous offense of all, at least for me, is the celebration at the end of RotJ. The music is not only terrible, by any measure of quality, but completely removed from any musical them or style we've seen thus far. The ewok celebration worked because it focused on the characters, and it worked musically because of the way it morphed the local ewok song into a majestic human choir right before the credits, thus expanding the celebration to encompass the entire galaxy (and the viewer, thanks to the fact that the choral style and language are recognizably Earth-based). The new ending removes all focus on the characters we've been dealing with for the last three movies, and forces us to watch emotionless long shots of people we don't know and planets we've forgotten about. It was poorly conceived and poorly done on almost every level.

Beyond that, I'm not going to buy the Special Editions because I simply disagree with the notion of a director who can't let go of his work--I see it as a weakness, to be honest, and I'd like him to move on to something new. If you think that's a bad reason then I'm sorry.

And please don't whine and snarl about how much I'm complaining, because I only detailed these complaints in response to your rather direct request. You can counter my ideas if you want, just don't tell me to stop bashing Lucas because, well, you asked me too.
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House of Mustard

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Re: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2004, 04:31:01 PM »
Why do you insist on bashing Lucas?  If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all, jerkface.
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Re: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2004, 04:47:10 PM »
ah, but at least you provided reasons that were not outside the scope of reality. That's nto "bashing" in my book. My complaint about those disagreeing with me is bringing in irrelevant factors. You can at least bring in real reasons you don't like the shots.

I can't disagree with you on the Han/Greedo bit. It sucks. It's very brief, but it does change a lot about Han. BUt since it's the only thing that really gets to me over the course of nearly 7 hours, well... I can let it go.

As for the Jabba/Solo scene well... the only part I don't like is when he steps over jabba. That could have been done better.

I didn't like the first band sequence in Jedi, so the more obnoxious replacement didn't really affect me.

Almost the same for the ewok celebration. I didn't enjoy the "Yub nub! Ya-ya-ya-yub nub!" bit at all, and I completely disagree with your assessment of the choral blending. Tacky. all around. So again, the new music didn't seem to be any more tacky. The only real disagreement I had with that change was showing the various planets, which a) wouldn't have known right away, and b) would need time to celebrate a regime change. However, there's nothing there to say that it's not some time later. I don't think that all the bureaucrats in such an oppressive regime would be upset to have a boss that wouldnt' choke them to death at the slightest provocation, and we can even assume (though it's extra-textual supposition) that this is after a more complete victory is established as fighting within the military weakens it because there is no strong leader.  So while I have to justify it, I can get around the annoying nature of showing the various planets. I didn't realize, hwoever, that we'd stopped caring about all these other places. Limiting the victory to Endor only seems very phyrric. It needs to be communicated SOMEHOW that the rest of the galaxy is saved as well. I must assume that the music didn't do it for Lucas anymore than it did for me, so he wants to fix it.

Quote
Beyond that, I'm not going to buy the Special Editions because I simply disagree with the notion of a director who can't let go of his work--I see it as a weakness, to be honest, and I'd like him to move on to something new. If you think that's a bad reason then I'm sorry

That argument holds the most weight with me, actually. I don't agree with it. Or at least, I don't feel that strongly about it. But it's honest and doesn't accuse him of anything he hasn't done. I think Lucas IS a weak director though. He had one good epic and one good pulp tale in him. Plus American Graffiti, I guess. But other than that he's not all that great a film maker. Maybe if he adapted someone else's work.

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2004, 05:26:17 PM »
Course, then there's always this

Spriggan

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Re: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2004, 02:24:27 AM »
Thanks Fell, it's nice to see actualy cirtisism of the changes and not of Lucas.

Since I've seen the first 2 movies I'll say a few things.

1) Greedo shoots first, I didn't even notice Han moveing.

2) Jabba looks better, like from epsode 1

3)ESB is very well done, the only noticble change is the emperor.

I haven't seen ROJ yet, but I do agree with all that I don't care for the new celebrations, but as SE says it's just a minute or 2 out of 7.  Also there's people going around, who haven't seen the DVDs yet, saying they redubbed all the stromtrooper's voices with Jango Fett's, this isn't true.  THey're the same.

All I can say to those that don't like Lucas tinkering with his movies, at least he's not Ridly Scott with BladeRunner, we're on like the 7th version of that movie 5 of which have come out since DVDs became popular.

edit: hah!  That PVP comic is great.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2004, 03:01:20 AM by Spriggan »
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Spriggan

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Re: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2004, 07:35:17 AM »
hah, Carie Fisher is a hoot,  was reading an article on MSN and here's a quote from her:

Quote

Fisher said she liked being a doll, but found some of the Princess Leia merchandise slightly unnerving. "I always liked the shampoo bottle where you twist my head off and pour liquid out of my neck. That's very Freudian," she said. "If I dreamed that, what would you think it meant?"


The article aslo talks about wondering if they could train a monkey to play Yoda.  Now there's a thought, which is stronger?  Ninja Monkeys or Monkey Jedis? Ponder it.  
http://entertainment.msn.com/movies/article.aspx?news=168548
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2004, 08:54:20 AM »
Since Ninja Jedi aren't real, I'm gonna go with Ninja Monkeys. Oh. And I like this quote.

Quote
Hamill says maybe there shouldn't be too much nitpicking or overblown reverence.

As the Skywalker actor put it: "How can you be so serious on a film where you are dodging explosions and running away with Sir Alec Guinness on this side and an eight-foot monkey on this side, and the eight-foot monkey is the one flying the spaceship?"

Spriggan

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Re: Star Wars DVD chages **Spoilers**
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2004, 09:05:39 AM »
Ahh, see I'd go with monkey Jedis.  And Ninja Jedi wasn't an option there bucco.
Screw it, I'm buying crayons and paper. I can imagineer my own adventures! Wheeee!

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