Diney heroines

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

They chose marriage. Because a) that has more appeal and is more child friendly than most other options and b) because in the middle ages, it WAS the only way to improve your situation. That's the way the social structure worked. Deal. However, just because her reward for maintaining her patience, cheerfulness, faith, and kind heartedness is true love, an increase in social status, and increase in economic status, and escape from an abused life, it does NOT follow that the film argues that marriage is the ONLY way to do so.

Hmmm arguing as Devils advocate...
that seems a little harsh Saint,... especially when your argument kind of falls down about the ways she could have improved her station. She didn have to be a criminal to beat the situation. Running a way to become a prostitute and muder were hardly the best examples to use. Cinderella can exert some independence and take steps toward her own salvation without becoming a criminal. This is where I think the movie Ever After improves on the Disney story,... turning Cinderella from a "mentally abused shut in" in to a whole girl who deals with her stepmother on her own or at least manuvers her into her own punishment. I think the reason the girls have a problem with marriage as a solution to problems is that the movie pretty obviously states that if you are perfectly good and kind you will be rescued by a prince. While I know you think a more willful Cinderella would have been bad, teaching a child that abuse needs to be confronted and not simply taken would have been a better lesson. What the movie leaves us with is a terrible lesson to teach young girls, take the abuse given to you and wait to be rescued.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

note: Cinderella is only physically abused once. When she has her dress torn up -- she is ganged up on by 2 people, with more watching. She really can't do anything else. Where would she go? To the castle? Where they see hundreds of people in similar circumstances begging everyday. Live on the street? At least she has clothes, bedding, food, and friends where she is.

I don't find my examples harsh. I didn't mean for them to be an exhaustive list of all possible solutions, which was kind of the point of my argument. You would never argue those were her ONLY recourse, but if the solution is marriage, suddenly we say that the movie claims it IS the only solution. That kind of reasoning doesn't make any sense to me.

I also want to note that the protagonist of Ever After doesn't really do anything more than Disney's Cinderella does. If the prince hadn't decided he wanted to marry her, she'd still be screwed. Yeah, yeah, she got away from that creepy duke guy. HOw long would that last? He had a legal claim, and his lackeys would have been able to capture her before she was out of the courtyard if the prince hadn't shown up. It's just a different personality type.

I think you're too specific in saying that the message is "be good and your prince will come." Unless you take the prince metaphorically. I think the message is more: if you're good, ACTIVELY good, not just meek and obedient, then a way out will be created.

Cinderella was commiting an act of defiance just by going to the ball. She had no way of knowing that she wouldn't be recognized. In fact, she was very much in danger of being recognized if the ESM had gotten a closer look. It was only the change of clothes that made her not instantly recognizable. Had the ESM realized who she was, she would have probably been locked up a whole lot sooner. She was out there defying the abuse. Had she not gone, she would have not met hte prince, and thus no way out. I'm not claiming she's as active as others, but she's not sitting around on her butt taking the abuse like everyone seems to imply she is.

In fact, her only fault, that I can see, is that she's too trusting that others will keep their word.

[Fellfrosch]

I've always wanted to do a version of Sleeping Beauty from the Prince's perspective, because I think it's the most fascinating angle on the story. The discovery of the 100-year-old sleeping castle would be incredible. The problem with the Disney version is that they tell it from the fairies point of view, which turns every other character (including the prince) into a victim. Sleeping Beauty herself only has one scene with any dialogue--that's why I don't list her among the weak Disney heroines, because I don't consider her to be a heroine. They make her a side note to her own story.

[House of Mustard]

I think it's interesting that in the Grimm version of Sleeping Beauty, many many princes try to get to the castle and die.  The final prince just happens to be walking by when 100 years is up, and the thorns turn into flowers.  He goes in, sees some hot chick lying there asleep, kisses her, and they live happily ever after.  That's pure heroism.

[stacer]

But then, of course, there's Basile's version, which is the earliest known recorded version, in which the king (not a prince) rapes Sleeping Beauty while she's asleep, and she wakes up to find herself pregnant with twins to a man who's already married. Turns out his wife is an ogre who wants to eat the children of the mistress (gee, I wonder why she's mad?).  Etc. etc.

It's called Sun, Moon, and Talia: http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/pentamerone/29sunmoontalia1911.html.

[Mistress of Darkness]

Yes, but that version was written as an adult story. Sort of like a thriller with botice ripping elements is today.

I don't think that Ever After is a good example of a Cinderella story. It's the best example I've ever seen of feminism out of control. What one thing did the prince ever do for Danielle? NOTHING. He was a helpless, whiney sap. That in itself doesn't bother me, but why would Danielle ever fall in love with him? He's like this lost puppy that she has to take care of. And that seems to be the message that femi-nazis are trying to put forth: Men are useless, and complete ancillary. It is entirely untrue. In a healthy relationship there is give and take on both sides. A husband is not just someone that you dress and feed and make babies with. He listens to you, he comforts you, he helps you be a better you than you could be without him.

Now I will agree that Disney's Cinderella doesn't really show any side of the prince, but I don't think that was the point of the movie. The point was to show children that selflessness is rewarded. Being adult means that we need to realize that those rewards don't come in the fantastic forms of fairy-godmothers. That's why it's called fiction. Not everyone in the world matures at the same rate they age, but you can't blame that on a movie. That type of individual is going to have unrealistic expectations with the movie or without.

If you look at Sleeping Beauty, it seems that the story is about the faeries (good and bad), not the humans. The battle between good and evil, with the humans as the prizes. So the fact that Aurora doesn't really do anything to affect her situation is not surprising, since the battle is being fought on a different playing field.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

the only good thing to come out of sleeping Beauty is Malificent... a truely evil villain...

And MOD's avatar...

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

And I disagree that Ever After was an example of feminism out of control... male characters in it were very strong,... Take Divinci for example, and her father... the point isnt that the prince is kind of weak(which is a debateable point), but that she loves him for who he is, and he doesnt have to be a typical male stereotype, just like she doesnt have to be a helpless damsel.

Granted cinderella is a tough story to begin with, but still...

Im surprised that Disney never touched Rose Red with a ten foot pole... a story where the female character isnt obsessed with getting married.  

[Entsuropi]

Ignoring the whole cartoon girls angle...

What would you say would be a strong female protagonist who wasn't simply being male? I mean, obviously stuff like Eowyn - assuming the role of the man within the society and riding to war - is male, but what about using weapons? The ancient scythians had entire parts of their armies being women. Is it when they pretend they are a guy, wrapping their breasts and so on? (Like in the liveships series, by robin hobb.) I'm just wondering, since it seems that unless the woman spends her time staggering around acting weak or cleaning things, that she is trying to be a man.

Ian Irvine's series had a number of strong female characters, some of which were accomplished fighters. The difference between them and some of the men (the main male character was moderately pathetic outside of his limited abilities) was basically how they spoke, their reasons. But most of the discussion so far here has focussed on actions, either active or passive.

[stacer]

Entropy, that's something I've been trying to puzzle out myself. Even though I'm not partial to the Sleeping Beauty tale, I actually like the fairies in the Disney version because they are really good examples of women being heroines and women at the same time. They don't eschew their femininity to win. That's not a complete answer, though, and I'll have to come back to it.

On the subject of Ever After, I loved that movie when it first came out. It was our apartment movie, and we watched it over and over. The more I watched it, though, the more I've come to really be annoyed by the prince's character. I agree with MoD--he doesn't do a whole lot. Including listen to her when she's obviously all worked up and trying to tell him something important. And the whole "my father was an excellent swordsman, he taught me well" thing? Um, he died when she was eight. Some things in the movie just don't connect. There are a number of things that bother me about that movie, and the prince is just one of them. I do admire how he changes over the course of the story, learning to take responsibility for his princely duties, but as a counterpart to Danielle, they only have a few brief interludes, and the more I think about it the less I feel their relationship is very deeply grounded.

As far as Sun, Moon, and Talia being written for an adult audience, yes and no. Folk and fairy tales were considered either family stories for young and old, or they were, as you say, for adults. Fairy tales being the province of the young is a very recent phenomenon. You might be interested to know that even Grimm was not intended to be just children's stories--the name of the collection is "Tales for Young and Old"--Haus und Kindermarchen. But they did clean up the tales considerably compared to their predecessors.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

and the more I think about it the less I feel their relationship is very deeply grounded.

but its not like cinderella and her prince have a deep relationship either...

[Mistress of Darkness]

However there are still enough blood and guts to surprise and perhaps even interest teenagers.

Malificent, in my opinion, is the coolest cartoon villian ever. She's also the best animated dragon I've ever had the priviledge of watching.

Ent, my feelings on the female fighting thing is that I can only stand so many stories where the female character must turn her back on being female in order to make a difference. I enjoy reading about female warriors where the society is structured in that way (Wrede's Cilhar are a good example). I have a hard time accepting a female weilding a Claymor (sp?), but there are other ways to fight that do not rely so heavily on straight muscle.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Claymores actually arent that heavy...

the real historical claymores in the royal armories in Britain only weigh 3 or 4 pounds...  many even weigh less.

heres a good article about the really big two handers...
http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

[Nicadymus]

Just thought of another cartoon diva, but I am not sure if it was a "diney" character.

Jessica Rabbit from Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

Any thoughts?

[Spriggan]

We can't blame her for anything Nicydamus, she's just drawen that way.