Diney heroines

[Fellfrosch]

To continue our parlance from elsewhere on the board.

[fuzzyoctopus]

I personally like neither Belle nor Cinderella.  Jasmine is pretty cool, but Mulan is definitely a much stronger character.

[Spriggan]

I think Belle is a little creapy because of her love of Furries.

[stacer]

Diney?

Hahahahaha.

For some reason that makes me laugh and think of dinosaurs.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

It should be noted about mulan is based on a chinese poem and legend...

http://www.selu.edu/Academics/Faculty/elejeune/mulan.htm

[fuzzyoctopus]

I know that.  The legend makes Mulan even COOLER.

[stacer]

Yeah, I think Mulan was a way for them to branch out culturally in their revisioning of fairy and folk tales. Pocahontas was an attempt at that, but received quite a bit of backlash after a time, and I think Mulan was more well-done in reflecting the culture of the time and the legend it's referencing.

One thing that we talked about in folklore class last week after watching Cocteau's version of Beauty and the Beast is that though it's quite popular in the folktale scene right now to protest "Disneyfication," Disney actually does a pretty good job of sticking to the spirit of the tales. I wish I could remember what my friend Laura said about that, because it was good. It was in the context of the form of the tales--we've been studying Max Luthi, who argues that one of the main reasons folk tales are so fascinating is their structure. Folk tales have a definite form that's different from any other style of storytelling--plot-driven, flat characters, etc. Luthi argues that it is this flat style that brings to life a number of things, that it's an abstract form of storytelling, outlining the characters in stark contrast from each other and their surroundings, with no past or future, externalizing all emotions and motives--goodness is shown in actions, not emotive description, if that makes sense.

I'm veering away from Disney, though. I forget how it relates to Disney. But it does.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

The problem with Pocohontas is that they decided to veer away from the legend and create a new story, one that was poorly written and insipid. As a Virginian and a history buff it made me pretty mad

[42]

Mulan bugs me. Not so much the idea of Mulan, but how Disney subtly mocked Chinese culture and tradition in their rendition. As I see it, they trounced over Chinese culture, infusing western ideals into Mulan to make it more palatable for American audiences.

And I would have to say that I'm not a huge fan of Disney's Belle. She does come off as having a bit of an entitlement problem in my view.

So maybe I'm just not very underdtanding of modern feminism. Cause I think Cinderella is a great character. I don't see her as being passive at all. She's patient and enduring. She makes the best of a bad situation and when an oppurtunity comes for her to make things better she takes it without stepping on other people. I see her as being passively proactive.

[MsFish]

The problem with Cinderella is that the only way she changes things in her life is by getting married.  It goes back to the myth that you find a man and everything is happily ever after.  It's simply not true, but a lot of girls believe it is.  

Not that I think Belle or Mulan are the answer...they're kind of on the other extreme.  I wonder if we couldn't have a heroine who hits the happy medium.  Oh well.  

[42]

Cinderella changes her life by having hope and faith that things will get better. She also optimisticly looks for the good in her situation. Yes she is abused, but she doesn't really give in to the abuse.

And to be fair, marriage (to the right person) does make things better for a lot of people (men and women). Getting married is suppose to be a happy thing, representive of bettering one's life.

[MsFish]

Disney's Cinderella does have a great outlook.  She stays happy even though things aren't going the way she would have planned.  I like that about her.  

And I'm not arguing that marriage isn't supposed to make you happy.  It's the idea that marriage is the end of all your problems that bothers me.  In the family life class I TA for we talk about how one of the top five things that cause problems in marriage is unrealistic expectations.  Girls actually grow up believing that marriage means happily ever after, and so they throw themselves at men to save them from their lives.  It simply doesn't work.  You have to be able to solve your own problems, and then you can have a worthwhile, happy, life-bettering relationship.

[stacer]

Yes, what she said.

I actually have always loved the Cinderella story and most of the variants that have come out in recent years. Some of the movie versions haven't been so good, but a lot of the books have been wonderful. If you want a great Cinderella retelling, read Ella Enchanted. Do NOT watch the movie, however--ick.

Along with that, I've always loved Disney's Cinderella. I actually don't think she's completely passive--she is pretty good about actively subverting her stepmother, actually, with making her own dress. It's not passive to get locked up in an attic. What I do love about Ella Enchanted, though, that Disney doesn't do, is that all the way up to the end, Ella has to be a part of her own salvation. The prince is a part of it, too, but Ella is an active participant all the way up to the very end.

My beef with the passive protagonist is actually more with Sleeping Beauty and Snow White. Now, I don't know what's more passive than falling asleep till the prince wakes you with a kiss.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

here's my problem with the "only way" argument.

If she had been able to escape the abuse and find a better life through some other method, say, running away and becoming a madame. Would you have argued that the films is saying "the only way she could improve her life is by becoming a madame?" Or if she had killed the ESM and blamed the ESS (Evil Step-sisters), would you say the premise of the movie is that crime is the only way to improve her life.

The film/story has to have SOME way for her to improve her life. They chose marriage. Because a) that has more appeal and is more child friendly than most other options and b) because in the middle ages, it WAS the only way to improve your situation. That's the way the social structure worked. Deal. However, just because her reward for maintaining her patience, cheerfulness, faith, and kind heartedness is true love, an increase in social status, and increase in economic status, and escape from an abused life, it does NOT follow that the film argues that marriage is the ONLY way to do so.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

My beef with the passive protagonist is actually more with Sleeping Beauty and Snow White. Now, I don't know what's more passive than falling asleep till the prince wakes you with a kiss.

to be fair, at least in Snow White's case, the reason she's in a position to be rescued at all is because of her noble character, and her actively making friends and doing things that will earn her friendships. It's not directly related to her salvation, but imagine a Snow White who hadn't cleaned the dwarves home, but had simply taken their food and laid around. Would they have kept her in? Unlikely. Thus when the queen found her, she'd have died, having no protection.

Sleeping Beauty I have no argument for. She's nice and all, but she's pretty much a victim. Everything happens to her. Her salvation has little if anything to do with what she does, and likewise her predicament is the result of enmity her father earned. That story would be much more interesting, I think, from the prince's perspective, esp the Disney version. You can see him falling in love, hunting her out, fighting the dragon. Yeah.