Timewaster's Guide Archive
General => Rants and Stuff => Topic started by: Mister M on April 21, 2006, 02:11:43 PM
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Those of you who worked on Leading Edge (BYU’s science fiction and fantasy magazine, for those who didn’t) know that there’s always been a tension between us and the English Department, most of it riding on the fact that some in the administration don’t consider SF&F literary enough to merit English Department support. Well, over recent years our support base has been eroding, with such longtime supporters as Doc Smith, Sally Taylor, and Linda Adams retiring or, in Doc’s case, dying. And all of that finally came to a head.
Sometime near the beginning of this semester, the English Department administration decided that they would no longer support Leading Edge. We don’t know exactly when this took place, as they informed neither us nor our advisor (Zina Petersen at the moment). In fact, had one of the editors not asked the College of Humanities about the possibility of some extra funding for possible projects, we might not know even now.
The basic reasons for the department’s decision seem to boil down to the following:
1) Several members of the department administration don’t consider SF&F literary enough to merit English Department support, both in terms of funding and our advisor’s time.
2) Leading Edge doesn’t really fit their definition of a student journal because it (a) doesn’t have a class specifically connected to it, (b) publishes largely non-student material, and (c) often has non-students as prominent staff members (such as our current associate editor). They admit we’re an excellent journal; we just don’t “fit” their definition of a student journal deserving of university resources.
I think the reasons are kind of lame, but I’m not the one making the decisions. Anyway, as soon as we found out about the decision (through the College of Humanities, not even the department) we started acting to prevent it, or at least survive the transition. Credit where credit’s due: the vast majority of this was done by Matt Gibbons, our managing editor, and many thanks to him for his hard work.
We tried getting sponsored by the Linguistics department, but for whatever reason they decided not to take us. (The reason I heard was the same about department resources; I don’t agree with that, but it’s what they say.) We tried going directly through the College of Humanities, like Quark and LTUE do, but apparently we still need a department to sponsor us.
(continued next post)
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And so it comes down to this: At the beginning of 2007, Leading Edge will become an independent magazine no longer affiliated with Brigham Young University. Since we have seven months to prepare, we’ve already started taking into account things we’ll be changing. Here’s a brief list:
1) We’ll still be working out of the Humanities Publication Center, but since the English Department doesn’t want us becoming a de facto student journal using the facilities for free, we’re working with Mel Thorne (HumPub supervisor) to rent the facilities. He was originally going to let us use them for free, so the rate should be reasonable.
2) We’re reducing our print runs to cut costs. Since we usually have a decent store of back issues, this isn’t going to cut into subscriptions any. We’re also switching to print-on-demand so that, in case we need more issues, we can print them as need be at minimal further cost. (This, among other things, has necessitated a change from our long-time partner MC Printing, to whom I will be sending an apology letter in the near future.)
3) We’re looking into becoming either a nonprofit organization or limited-liability company. Part of this is for tax and other protection in case we need to take out loans; part is to open the possibility of donations to keep the magazine afloat. (Hopefully asking for donations won’t be necessary, but it’s an option to keep open.)
4) Work is also underway to allow subscriptions to be bought online via credit card or paypal. We’re hoping this will increase subscriptions and, thus, revenue.
5) Although we won’t be able to offer Elang 351 (student journal) credit to BYU students anymore, we’re working with Linda Adams to allow Elang 399 (student internship) credit instead. This should help us keep a strong supply of university students coming, since not everyone comes (at least at first) out of love of the magazine.
6) Apparently in Matt’s trying to convince the department that SF&F is legitimate literature, he cited a professor that has since been hired on to BYU faculty. (I don’t know his name.) The English Department has said that if we manage to last two year on our own, and if he (or someone else) is willing to take us under their wing, there is a strong possibility of them taking us back. Whether that happens or not will likely involve financial considerations more than anything else, but it’s a possibility.
And I think that pretty much covers it. Like I said, most of this work was done by Matt Gibbons, so thank him for what help we’ve had. If you have any questions that I haven’t answered, or just want to rant, post below.
HOWEVER, please do not email the English Department with a rant saying how much you disagree with this, what a mistake they’re making, etc. We’re already on shaky ground as it is; a flood of angry emails will only make the situation worse. If you must express your feelings to them, I suggest a carefully written, polite, hardcopy letter sent via snail mail.
Since this post is probably the last thing I’ll officially do as TLE’s Senior Editor, I just want to thank all of you who’ve helped the magazine over the years. The dedication at TLE is enough that I don’t think it will die, and we’ll fight tooth and nail to keep it from happening—even those, like me, who are moving halfway across the country.
Thanks for listening.
(And again, please don’t email complaints about this to the English department. We need as much of their good grace as we can get right now.)
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Wow--this is very sad, and seems very stupid, but I can see their side somewhat. It seems like the better choice would have been to make TLE a more student-oriented magazine, rather than just cutting it loose, but having dealt with academic anti-SF prejudice for many, many years, I can understand why that wasn't the road they decided to take.
Let us know what we can do to help out. At the very least, it sounds like all of us ex-TLE-ers need to set up subscriptions.
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Just to clarify, since Jason frequently mixes the two positions up, I'm the managing editor currently and so well be in charge of the magazine for the next issue (not Matt who is the associate and will be managing. A minor detail, but is important to me since it means I will be in charge).
I would also like to thank Matt for the hard work he's put in and for helping me to take the magazine out on its own. If anyone has any ideas on how we can raise money to help with costs, let us know. It's hard to make money on a magazine that costs $4 to print (just for printing, not including payment to authors, artists, and contributor copies), and sells for $5. Because of this, we will have to raise costs from $4.95 to $5.95. Subscriptions are raised as well, but they won't really cover costs since we have to give a discount for subscriptions causing us to essentially lose money on them (although it helps get the word out and it's better to sell some of the print run and get closer to breaking even than to sell none).
As it is, it costs about $1500 total for each print run and we probably make back about $250 of that in subscriptions. Not much. So any help you guys can give whether it's getting the word out to everyone you know who might like it, getting subscriptions yourselves if you don't have one already (it's only like $10 a year!!), and whatever else you can do would be great.
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Umm. If I'm not mistaken EUOL is BYU falcutly now, all be it part time, so he could be TLE's advisor. Now that he's getting married I don't see him leaving Utah any time soon.
I would suggest getting Card to send them a letter, but considering how much BYU's English deparment and him don't get along that would probably only make things worse.
Though you could probably get all the big name Mormon fiction writers to send letter to BYU's president, just go over those deparment idot's heads.
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It's not about having an advisor. Zina is our advisor, but the department doesn't want to use their money to pay for us anymore and they don't want their faculty to take time to help us (which is lame of course cause the time it takes is so minimal since we run ourselves!).
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Wow.
Just,... wow.
Let's ignore the baseless accusation that SF lacks academic merit (clearly, Orwell, Shelly, Poe, and Huxley aren't worth studying) for a moment. TLE has provided educational grounding for many students. Everything I know about publication either comes directly or can be traced to my time working at TLE. It's because of TLE that I could start doing other work, which is why I have my job today. Frankly, TLE has much more to do with my career than anything the English department did.
This is very sad.
If you guys need more allies, you may want to approach Dale Pratt in the Spanish Department. Mr. M took at least one class from him. He's the one that sponsored my ORCA grant about comic books. I don't know what he can commit to it, but it can't hurt to have faculty allies, right?
I'll start trying to send a $6 check for each issue, to do my part to keep you afloat. In addition, any work that you can farm out electronically to me I will volunteer to do. I don't want TLE to die.
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EUOL teaches a class, but it'd be a stretch to call him faculty. To become that, he'd really need to get a PhD and then get hired on as faculty. As it is, the department's been very resistant to even let him stay on and teach one class a year.
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Just to clarify, since Jason frequently mixes the two positions up, I'm the managing editor currently and so well be in charge of the magazine for the next issue (not Matt who is the associate and will be managing. A minor detail, but is important to me since it means I will be in charge).
Blast it! And here I thought that just once I had managed to get it right.
*sigh* This is why I usually call them #2 Editor and #3 Editor.
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No they officially hired him this year, he had an interview and all, so that they would allow him to teach. I don't know if that qualifies as Falculty at the Y, it does UVSC, since he's only got a masters and is part time. I do know that he is a staff member.
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Okay--"staff" I could see. Didn't know he had an interview. Who with? It takes a general authority interview to even become a one year "faculty" member.
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Wow.
Just,... wow.
Let's ignore the baseless accusation that SF lacks academic merit (clearly, Orwell, Shelly, Poe, and Huxley aren't worth studying) for a moment. TLE has provided educational grounding for many students. Everything I know about publication either comes directly or can be traced to my time working at TLE. It's because of TLE that I could start doing other work, which is why I have my job today. Frankly, TLE has much more to do with my career than anything the English department did.
This is very sad.
If you guys need more allies, you may want to approach Dale Pratt in the Spanish Department. Mr. M took at least one class from him. He's the one that sponsored my ORCA grant about comic books. I don't know what he can commit to it, but it can't hurt to have faculty allies, right?
I'll start trying to send a $6 check for each issue, to do my part to keep you afloat. In addition, any work that you can farm out electronically to me I will volunteer to do. I don't want TLE to die.
Thanks, we really appreciate the support. We did look into being under another department, but unfortunately the only departments that the College felt we could be under is English, and Linguistics and English Language (which has the editing minor). Neither of these would take us and the College wouldn't let us be under them. So there you are.
I agree with you that it's a great experience for students. Much of the faculty (Linda Adams, Mel Thorne, and Zina Peterson at the top) are very supportive of us and think we're the most professional magazine at BYU, but what can we do. We'll be accepting donations as well, and so we're hoping to be able to get enough that way. And we still have our BYU bank account (which we are being given permission to take with us) which will help (but not a whole lot). Here's hoping we get enough money!
What will really help is being able to use the HumPub still and having student slaves volunteers to help us run it.
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*sobs*
How freakishly annoying and sad! Rather depressing. Sure wish there was something else we haven't thought of....
Anyhow, I'll have to get myself a subscription instead of buying here and there. The raise in price seems like a definitely justifiable and smart thing to do, as well as allowing CC purchases. It's awesome that Mel is still behind you guys and trying to make the best out of everything. Too bad EUOL's presence can't deal with all of the issues stacked against the mag. :(
Edit: Just wondering if maybe we should put this in a different section of the forum... esp. since we don't want to encourage emailed rants to the Eng. dept.
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We may not be encouraging email rants, but it's still a rant because of frustration--just an internal TWG rant. But if an admin wishes to move it, that'd be okay.
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It's fine where it is.
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I almost moved it to Site News, since TWG was originally created through TLE. It's fine here, though.
On topic, hearing this seriously ruined my day. TLE offered the most practical editing and publishing experience at BYU. The fact that most submissions don't come from students is sort of the point; it's a REAL magazine. Cutting it is very short-sighted.
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I just sent a very polite email to [email protected] expressing my disappointment in their decision.
I'd also like to volunteer to perform any work that can be electronically farmed out to me.
It's ironic to me that the department where I was mercilessly bludgeoned, along with all the other english majors, about being open minded and willing to explore new vistas is the one dumping TLE because it doesn't fit the "literary" mold.
My curiosity is aroused though, when and why did TLE have non-student head editors? Seems like a dumb idea and I don't remember it being that way when I was there.
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You suggested that perhaps a well thought out snail mail letter might help. I'd like to send one on company letterhead, all official-like, expressing regret and high disappointment. If it hadn't been for TLE, I wouldn't have made *any* of the professional contacts I have and wouldn't have my current job. It was through Eng 330 that I met Kristy, who announced TLE in class, and I started going with her. If I'd never read slush there, I wouldn't have gotten the next jobs I got after graduation. I've made author contacts that originated through people I knew at TLE, and I never would have gone to LTUE without TLE either--which directly led to me finding an author who is currently writing for me. Many of the people I talk to in the SFF field know Leading Edge, and my grad school was impressed that I worked on a magazine in college.
That academic/professional enough to send a letter?
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Huh. I can't say I'm surprised, but that does suck.
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I think emphasizing the academic aspects that we've all learned is a very important thing as far as writing letters. I too owe a lot of my professional success to the experience gained during my time at TLE. The opportunities to learn are unique and should be acknowledged no matter what type of literature is being published.
This is a sad thing to hear that is, unfortunately, very reflective of a lot of problems with the Y as of late.
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My curiosity is aroused though, when and why did TLE have non-student head editors? Seems like a dumb idea and I don't remember it being that way when I was there.
To my knowledge, the only non-student head editor TLE has had is Jelly Belly, who attained that position *checks watch* well, either this week or next, whenever my term officially ends.
It happens when someone graduates and keeps coming. TLE editorship is very much biased toward seniority, after all, so if you keep coming you'll probably end up there. I don't really see it being a problem, so long as the editorship doesn't fossilize in place.
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I really think that we should continue our efforts to the linguists department. If they look at the people being trained, not the literature of the issue, I think that they'll realize what a bargain TLE is.
Has anyone contacted Dave or Scott yet? Also, how about Ann Sowards? Ookla, an official letter via Tokyopop might also be nice.
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It's really great to hear these testimonials from you are. And yes, I am a non-student editor, but I was a student on the magazine for 16 months before I graduated. I think Chris Kugler was head editor as well after graduating (I can't remember for sure) and Charisa was an editor after graduating as well. I can understand not having professionals being the editors for it, but for recent graduates who worked on it as a student, I don't see the problem.
I actually had asked Linda Adams what she thought about me continuing on after graduation and she thought it was a great idea. And we were really short on people who had been at the magazine long enough to be editors, so I think it was good I stayed.
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Mister M,
I think you're ditching BYU a little too quickly.
I have to admit, I've seen the growing piles of back issues, and have been concerned that this day would come. I made several suggestions to try and head the event off, but I was politely ignored by both faculty and TLE editors.
Now that this has happened, I do think that what we need to do is fight for BYU to continue sponsoring TLE, but with a much smaller budget. The truth is, you don't need to do the print runs that you do. With places like Lulu doing POD at $4 a book, it would be very easy to switch to them as a printer.
That leaves only needing money to pay artists and authors. We need to emphasize that the money given to TLE as budget, however, is there to train the staff. At about $750 a semester, it would be a real bargain for the training the students would get.
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Well, what are you suggesting? We already cut our print run in half (to 200 issues). For just the cost of artists and authors, it cost about $550 (some we paid out of our account and some paid by the English dept), plus $4 a book (which is the cheapest we've found). We have 50 current subscribers plus 39 people on staff, plus two copies for each artist and author so that's 28 more contributor's copies, so we need to print at least 117 issues plus some extra for those who buy separately. We maybe could go down to 150 copies, but that's only $200 less. So that's at least $1100.
Plus the English department won't take us back just for costing a little less. I think it's beyond cost, personally.
We really did fight this thing. Talk to Matt and you'll find out how many people he talked to in English, Linguistics, and the College to keep us at BYU. It may not seem like it to you all because you're hearing about this after it's all happened, but we've been trying to work this all out for a couple months now.
We do appreciate any help you all can give though. If you can think of something that we haven't thought of, we'd love to stay at BYU and we have until October, essentially to be able to find a way.
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I think you're ditching BYU a little too quickly.
I think you might have misunderstood. We aren't ditching BYU. We tried everything we could to stay with BYU, including offering to cut budgets, change departments, subsidize the issues out of our own merchant account, etc. In the end, we were given two choices: Go independent, or shut down. We tried other options; they were all closed on us.
Maybe it's simply the inability to convey a semester's worth of work through a simple post. But basically, we aren't ditching BYU, we're being cut off.
Edit: Ditto what Jelly_Belly said about advice. If you can think of any options we overlooked that might work, please, tell us.
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When did you find out about this?
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Okay, I re-read your words a few more times above, Mr. M, and I think that you're doing a very good job. This is a good plan, and could work very well. (Are you thinking LuLu for your POD publisher?)
However, I still think that there is more that can be done here. I feel a little annoyed that, as faculty, I found out about this so late. My strings are getting thinner and thinner, but I still have a few that I can pull. Let me see what I can do, though--of course--I won't rock any boats.
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When did you find out about this?
We were first told around early March; the English Department's decision to not keep us on had occured sometime before then, how long I don't know.
For a time it looked like the Linguistics Department would take us on (and the English Department had even offered to continue providing half-budget, at least for a while, and we determined we could cut costs enough to survive off that), but then they decided not to, either.
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Okay, I re-read your words a few more times above, Mr. M, and I think that you're doing a very good job. This is a good plan, and could work very well. (Are you thinking LuLu for your POD publisher?)
However, I still think that there is more that can be done here. I feel a little annoyed that, as faculty, I found out about this so late. My strings are getting thinner and thinner, but I still have a few that I can pull. Let me see what I can do, though--of course--I won't rock any boats.
Thanks. And don't feel too miffed about not being told; our advisor had to find out from Linda Adams, who found out from us, who found out from the College of Humanities. We're not quite sure when the English Department planned on telling us anything, but they didn't seem to be in a great hurry about it. (We would have told Zina ourselves, save that the department told Matt they would do it.)
And thanks for looking into strings to pull. Any help is greatly appreciated.
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Oh, and as for print-on-demand, University Print Services seems like they'll still do it, and the price from them is $4 per issue. (Plus we get proofs to look over, which is nice.)
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My suggestion:
Bring me on to teach a TLE class. Take the focus away from the magazine, and make it focus on the student experience. It think that by being a class, people wouldn't look so much toward the product--the magazine, with its contents--and look at the students being produced. (Which was the real product all along.)
I'd donate my salary to paying authors and printing costs. We go PoD to Lulu, which prints a book much like we do with MC for about four or five bucks, and we weather the storm until this new guy has more power or until I have a few best-sellers under my belt and can rattle larger chains.
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Oh, and I wish you would have let me know as soon as you found out....
However, if you guys do weather this as per Mr. M's plan above, you'll certainly be among the TLE 'greats' when it comes to editors.
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I'll email you Matt's email address. He's the one who's been the chief liaison between us and the English department, and so he's the one who knows best who you'd need to talk to and what chance of success you have for it.
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Oh, and I wish you would have let me know as soon as you found out....
However, if you guys do weather this as per Mr. M's plan above, you'll certainly be among the TLE 'greats' when it comes to editors.
We would have liked to, but with things still up in the air and negotiations underway, it seemed like it might damage our credibility if we started bringing others in on it. And we needed all the credibility we could get at that point. (There might also have been specific requests by the departments or college to keep it quiet until things were concluded; I don't know for certain.)
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Just a quick note, I know you guys don't want to leave BYU but there's a good chance you could get UVSC to take TLE. They're just starting to move to a full fledged Uni by offering Master's degrees and the first 2 are English and business. Heck even EUOL has thought about going over there and asking if they want him to teach a Sci-fi/Fantasy class.
Considering how accredit TLE is, and all the big names attached to it, they could want it. And, after all, it would be better to move it over there then trying to strike it on your own.
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I will definitely be sending a letter about how TLE was an important formative experience for my career. And I'll email Anne.
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Have you considered other colleges? If the College of Engineering is willing to offer a BFA (making it the only one in the world), perhaps there are other Colleges besides the College of Humanities that would support TLE. I would suggest the science or business oriented Colleges since that much, much more funding than the art related Colleges.
Regardless of a students major, being staff on a student/semi-professional magazine looks great on a resume or grad-school application.
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I'd donate my salary to paying authors and printing costs. We go PoD to Lulu, which prints a book much like we do with MC for about four or five bucks, and we weather the storm until this new guy has more power or until I have a few best-sellers under my belt and can rattle larger chains.
What is "Lulu"? All I know is University Press is willing to do print on demand, whether 1 issue or 50 or whatever, for $4/issue. There shouldn't be any reason for them to stop after we're not associated since they do a lot of private jobs for those outside of BYU.
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lulu.com PoD online. The nice thing about using them is that they have a built-in credit card payment system. So, you could just link to TLE issues through there, and sell them that way.
I actually think the UVSC option might be a good one. Scott Card has some good ins there, and honestly, it might be a far more friendly environment.
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This is sad, sad news. If you guys need help, certainly let me know. I'll be living in Utah County come June, so am available for on-site help if necessary.
I may also be able to help out in the funds department. Can't help immediately, but come fall issue I will be more solvent. Shoot me an email.
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Hmmm. I suspect this is a warning sign regarding the fate of LTUE.
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I have written a draft of a letter, but have to run to pack some more. (Moving tomorrow.) But I'll mail it out on Monday. I basically laud TLE as one of the things that got me started on my awesome career as an editor and how my contacts through it even now give me great professional blah blah, and how my experience at TLE also enriched my career as a graduate student.
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Hmm, UVSC does sound like an interesting alternative.
On the other hand, I think it'd be awesome if BYU would let EUOL teach a TLE class. I agree that the editors/designers-in-the-making who benefit from TLE really are the raison d?êtra of the magazine.
Yet I can see why UVSC might prove a more, um, enlightened place for relocation. A couple weeks ago, my writing teacher confided to me that prospective MFA faculty members are always asked what their "policy" is on teaching or workshopping SF. Yep, I can't say it was incredibly surprising, but it *does* explain why the only SF-inclined prof (Uppinder Mehan) didn't get tenure. >:(
However, back to the issue at large.... even if UVSC embraced TLE, I'd still be ticked that BYU's students would have a lesser chance of participating. I'll sit down and write a polite letter myself--just as soon as I finish moving tomorrow. :P In fact, an hour ago I packed all my issues of TLE. *sigh* (Stacer, you're moving too? I hope it's to a better/cheaper place!)
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I'd also like to volunteer to perform any work that can be electronically farmed out to me.
Should all negotionations with BYU come to naught, and you become totally independant, I'd also like to volunteer for this, if there's any way I can help from out of state.
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Hmmm. I suspect this is a warning sign regarding the fate of LTUE.
This might very well not affect LTUE. Unlike TLE, LTUE is under the college. Policies have changed making it impossible for new organizations to be under the college but because of the precedence of LTUE being under the college for as long as it has, it should be okay. The college was very pro-TLE. Dean Gessel (who's is now on a mission) loved both us and LTUE. So I don't see this affecting LTUE.
*Jelly crosses her fingers
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I've been away most of the day, sorry I couldn't be more involved in the conversation thus far.
Let me first of all echo the offers of others to help out--you can rely on me for anything from grunt labor to official letters to monetary aid to anything else. If there's anything that TWG as an entity can do as well, consider it done. This site, and most of our professional careers, exist because of TLE. I'll contact you by email or in person to discuss some more options.
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I've been busy and just read this thread. This is not good. TLE has been a major selling point for me when I was applying for lawschool (because it wasn't a lame law school prep journal). TLE also gave me an edge when it can to competing on student law journals because TLE was more professional then most student journals.
I'll do what I can to get support for TLE.
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Just throwing out an idea here. This is primarily for funding.
So my husband suggested that it would be great (not easy, but great) if TLE could get an endowment. Lots of BYU scholarships are funded this way. Here's the numbers:
Let's say TLE can get someone (or more) to invest 80K (how? I don't know, this is hypothetical). If it gained interest at 10% a year it would make $8000. With 4% for inflation (necessary to reinvest) that would leave $4000 for TLE to spend each year (ok, the numbers aren't precise, so what?). Give or take. It would pay for printing and toward faculty salary for a class.
Of course BYU has rules and guidelines regarding endowment/donations to the university. If you wish, I can look into this for you (be sure to let me know what you think). As for donors, I'm not sure how it would work, but I could look into that, too. Not that I know anyone who could fork over that kind of cash, but having the information would be helpful and make it easier to convince the university to hold onto TLE. Especially if we can find a donor(s) who make stipulations about how the money will be spent.
If TLE is really lucky and can get a bigger donation, editor positions could be paid. Not realistic, but a cool thought!
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I can come upp with about twenty five thousand of it...
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I can come upp with about twenty five thousand of it...
Really? Wow. Are you joking? That's more than a quarter of the way there. That would be encouraging.
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Not joking whatsoever. I would only be willing to invest if I where reasonably sure that I would actually do any good, but invest I would.
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There;s also a chance of goverment endowments for the arts, though that could be quite hard to get.
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Actually, TLE has recieved art endowments in the past.
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I'm going to be hated for saying this -- and I might even be a little hypocritical since I graduated long before my issue as head editor was printed, but I think it needs to be said.
If one of their problems is non-students as editors, you should definitely consider not letting people who have graduated be editors. Yes, experience counts for a lot, but you can change that. Most experienced who hasn't graduated is a fair rule for a publication that is supposed to be part of an educational curriculum. I think this is actually a valid complaint they have (though it would have been more appropriate for the dept. to have made such a statement so you could make the change first). It sucks for Jelly Belly, but I don't think it's entirely unfair.
Again, I offer my time and energy. I'm nowhere near Provo so I can't do anything else, but I have lots of time to work on the zine again.
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Wait. Non-students are the editors? What the crap, that's totally not fair. I agree with SE, once you graduate you're out as editor, you can read the slush pile if you like but should have no say in how things are run.
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Well, to be fair, a lot of the student publication have editors who have graduated. However, mostly this is because they recieve the position just before they graduate then are unable to finish the their issue until well after they have graduated.
I can think of a couple of cases where the editors really didn't get around to most of the work until a couple of years after they had left BYU.
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My problem with it is that everyone talks about how they got jobs because of TLE yet they're denying others that opportunity because they're staying on, quite selfishly in my opinion, and not giving others that deserve the experience a chance to gain it.
Any now they're talking about paying the editors? It seams like some people are more concerned with their own financial future instead of the future of the magazine.
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All I'm saying is that this was cited as among the reasons for the English Dept's decision. The story, apparently, is that Jelly Belly will be given charge of the publication after she graduated. It would be a sign of concession to the English Dept to correct that.
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Ya especially since now she's wanting to get paid to be said editor. Reeks of scandal to me.
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First of all, to Nessa, we talked to BYU about getting donations and they are really strict on how it works.
As long as we are through BYU, we could not ask people directly for donations. We'd have to get on a list and possibly get some that way, but no way would we be able to get $80,000. If we continue down the road we're on, then we could accept direct donations such as this, but then we run into the issue of finding someone who can do donate that much (or a combination of people). If we could do that, that'd be great. I have actually thought about this myself. What we need is some really rich person who loves to donate to stuff give us the money, but it takes time to find such who is willing to donate a good chunk. If you have an idea, let us know.
To E, I understand your complaint and if I thought that me not being an editor would at all affect the English department's decision, I would gladly step down. I thought that that is how it worked: you could only be a named position if you were a student. I talked about it with the staff and all believed that this wasn't the case and that I should be editor. If there were students who were ready and willing to be editor to the magazine, I would have gladly given them the chance, but at the time the longest any student had been there who wanted to be an editor was about 4 months. So I figured that my experience on the magazine would be helpful at the time when we had a lot of young members. As I said, Linda Adams agreed with me and I value her opinion. That is why I stayed on.
The long and short of it is that it would not have made a bit of difference to the English department. Matt, who has done all the correspondence with the English department, agreed that me stepping down and the magazine only being run by students wouldn't have changed anything. Now that it is going away from BYU, I don't see any point in stepping down now. Especially since I'll only be on the magazine for one more issue. If you have a better reason for me to do so now, let me know, but I can't think of one.
Again, if I thought it would've made a difference, I wouldn't have become editor or I would have gladly stepped down when I heard of the English department's complaints. This wasn't the case and so I didn't.
I could be wrong, but it sounded to me like the English Department is making all the excuses they can to get rid of us. They always throw a fit about having the sci-fi and fantasy writing class (claiming there aren't enough people interested even though the class is always full) and without a strong faculty member fighting for sci-fi and fantasy, such as Sally or Doc Smith, we're pretty much sunk. What can I tell you?
If you call the English department and they say they will take us back if we have only students working on the magazine, I'll step down. I'm serious. I care more about TLE than I do about me getting experience.
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Ya especially since now she's wanting to get paid to be said editor. Reeks of scandal to me.
And no, I don't want to get paid to work there. Matt was trying to get student paid positions when all this happened. That's all. Since I wasn't a student at the time, it didn't affect me, but there are other magazines that do have student paid editor positions and he thought it would be cool to have that as well, since he was spending 10 to 15 hours a week doing stuff for the magazine. I was all for it cause I figured this would help him so he wouldn't be working on the magazine and having a 20-hour student job. So he looked into it, but instead found out that they were planning on getting rid of us.
And again, if there had been students ready to take over as editor, I would have gladly done that so they could have experience. Even right now we only have two editors because we don't have anyone in the position to be an editor. Most are not staying for spring/summer, but are going home, so we don't even have a third person to be an editor that is a student.
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I'm just being clear here: it was not a complaint I made, just a suggestion. I personally don't think you need to justify yourself.
but if you remove all their excuses for cutting TLE loose, then they have to take you back.
Let's face it very few amateur publications make it in the world. That's why it was great to have TLE as a BYU magazine -- it didn't *have* to make money.
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To address this comment: "but if you remove all their excuses for cutting TLE loose, then they have to take you back." If I understand correctly, then this isn't necessarily true. If these are really concerns, then that could be the case. If they are just excuses to get rid of us, they would not take us back no matter.
And there will always be the concern of money. If we are not with BYU we can get donations to pay. If we are with BYU, we have to get on a list and hope for donations and that would not be good enough for the English department.
Then there is the concern of faculty time. They don't want to have to have a faculty member to be our advisor. How do we get around that? If they took us back, they would have to give us an advisor again, which they don't want to do.
With my above comments, I was just explaining the situation so everyone could understand what was going on. I was not trying to "justify" it. I thought it was a valid suggestion and I just wanted to address it so that those who love TLE and don't want to see it go away from BYU (which I agree that it would be awesome to stay there) could understand what was going on with it. Sorry if it came across any other way.
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We'd have to get on a list and possibly get some that way, but no way would we be able to get $80,000. If we continue down the road we're on, then we could accept direct donations such as this, but then we run into the issue of finding someone who can do donate that much (or a combination of people). If we could do that, that'd be great. I have actually thought about this myself. What we need is some really rich person who loves to donate to stuff give us the money, but it takes time to find such who is willing to donate a good chunk. If you have an idea, let us know.
I was saying that 80K was the ideal amount. You don't have to start with that much. I don't know what BYU's minimum is, but it's usual for there to be a minimum, usually somewhere around 20K-25K. If TLE could start with a minimum amount, a least TLE would have its foot in the door funding-wise, and could build up from there.
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I agree. I think that would be wonderful. I can give you contact info for Matt Gibbons if you would like to talk with him about it. He will be the one taking over the magazine when it's released from BYU, so he'd be the best one to talk to about this (if you are interested in discussing that with him, that is).
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Certainly. Email me.
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I think trying to move to UVSC sounds like the best suggestion so far. My experience at BYU was that the faculty strained every fiber of their being to toe the academic party line as closely as they could within the limits that kept them their jobs because they felt that they lost a lot of personal credibility in the world of academia because they were at a "religious" university. Intolerance of ideas that don't have immediate credence at other prestigious universities is a direct result of their overcompensation. This attitude slops directly onto TLE as an SF focused magazine. BYU lost site of what it really means to be an institution of higher learning and turned into a grant grubbing academic propoganda mill long before I graduated.
I don't think you'll find that kind of blinkered piggishness at UVSC. Has anyone contacted them?
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I'm thinking about starting up a publication at UVSC this summer. I can probably do some research into the viability of TLE moving to UVSC. Though you have to remember that UVSC is the most underfunded institute of higher learning in Utah.
I would stil strongly consider looking at other colleges at BYU. Most colleges get more funding than the Humanities college (except for the College of Fine Arts). And I mean a lot more, when my sister worked for BYU's accounting office she said that the Marriot School something like 80 times the funding of the School of Family and Social Science, even though social science majors vastly outnumber business majors. The engineering college can purchase million dollar computer, use it once, and then not think of it ever again without it bothering them. So what would 4k a year magazine cost them, other then giving students experience they couldn't get anywhere else and promote the exploration of scientific speculation.
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UVSC already has a SF&F magazine, Warp & Weave (http://www.uvsc.edu/engl/warpandweave.html). Their forthcoming issue actually has a (rejected by TLE) story in it by yours truly. It's a non-paying market, so I doubt UVSC is likely to fund a 1-cent/word spec-fic magazine transferring from BYU.
I think the best option (outside of finding another BYU connection) is to incorporate TLE as a 501(c)(3) non-profit, so it can accept tax-deductible donations. If they decide to take that course, I've already offered to donate $1000 up front, and then to match donations dollar for dollar for the next $1000. That would provide the operating funds to keep TLE going for another year after they lose BYU support.
Of course, if sufficient money could be raised to create an endowment that would fund operations, that would be great. The tax-deductibility of donations would be an important part of that.
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Please send me contact information for Matt- if the actuall minimum really is 20-25k then I really would like to look into it. But only if all else fails.
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UVSC already has a SF&F magazine, Warp & Weave (http://www.uvsc.edu/engl/warpandweave.html). Their forthcoming issue actually has a (rejected by TLE) story in it by yours truly. It's a non-paying market, so I doubt UVSC is likely to fund a 1-cent/word spec-fic magazine transferring from BYU.
Dang it.
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Yeah, I'll be contacting Matt about an endowment. My father-in-law is a certified financial planner, so we can probably get some help from him--at the very least he'll be good for information.
An endowment would be self-perpetuating, so TLE won't run out of funds for a long time, verses a few thousand dollars gets eaten up pretty quick. And, of course, I'll look into tax exemptions for endowment donors (because I would want to donate myself, as well).
What I'm wondering is, if TLE can pay for itself, what other reasons would BYU have for getting rid of them? (Besides faculty involvement.) Isn't that the biggest issue?
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I think the biggest issue is that BYU's faculty doesn't see science fiction/fantasy as a legitimate academic pursuit.
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Yeah, I'll be contacting Matt about an endowment. My father-in-law is a certified financial planner, so we can probably get some help from him--at the very least he'll be good for information.
An endowment would be self-perpetuating, so TLE won't run out of funds for a long time, verses a few thousand dollars gets eaten up pretty quick. And, of course, I'll look into tax exemptions for endowment donors (because I would want to donate myself, as well).
What I'm wondering is, if TLE can pay for itself, what other reasons would BYU have for getting rid of them? (Besides faculty involvement.) Isn't that the biggest issue?
If we did have an endowment so that we were getting money to pay for TLE, then it would pretty much feel like it has. It would still be at the HumPub (with some sort of rent being paid to Mel Thorne, but not much since he wanted to let us use the place for free, but the English Department wouldn't let him). We'd still have student volunteers working the magazine, and they would still get internship credit for doing so. I'm sure that Matt would be working towards making the magazine get a larger number of subscriptions and since he would own the magazine, he would want it to be profitable so that he was getting something back for his time (probably not a lot, but just some sort of compensation since he would be putting a lot more time in than any previous editor ever has). He would probably only be a main editor for 2 or 3 issues and then mainly be an advisor, allowing students to move through the ranks of TLE just as they have in the past. So really, it might not be as big of a change as it may seem right now. Matt is just committed to keeping TLE alive and keeping it a student publication.
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Endowments are only for non-profit, I believe. But that doesn't mean the editor can't be paid. It has to do with how the magazine handles taxes and stuff. Which, if it seperates from BYU, won't have the university accountants to handle everything, so that's something that will have to be dealt with by the editors in some way.
I'm sure that Matt would be working towards making the magazine get a larger number of subscriptions and since he would own the magazine, he would want it to be profitable so that he was getting something back for his time (probably not a lot, but just some sort of compensation since he would be putting a lot more time in than any previous editor ever has). He would probably only be a main editor for 2 or 3 issues and then mainly be an advisor, allowing students to move through the ranks of TLE just as they have in the past.
Somehow I don't think it would be possible to make it profitable in a year. Unless I'm missing something.
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I gotta say that it warms my heart to see TWG mobilizing all resources for the sake of TLE. It's extremely awesome! Though I have no money to invest, I would be willing, like e and fuzzy and others, to do any "off-site" type work.
Oh, and I'm with Stacer on why BYU has finally decided to give TLE the heave-ho. Even if we were to remove all the monetary and non-student editor and faculty advisor obstacles, I don't think BYU would be excited to welcome TLE back to the fold. All because they feel that SF is altogether too "escapist" and "clichéd" to be real literature AND because they are ignoring the fact that the magazine is also the means to another end--giving BYU students many great opportunities.
Ah, crap. Now I'm back to being really ticked off again..... :P
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Let's say TLE can get someone (or more) to invest 80K (how? I don't know, this is hypothetical). If it gained interest at 10% a year it would make $8000. With 4% for inflation (necessary to reinvest) that would leave $4000 for TLE to spend each year (ok, the numbers aren't precise, so what?). Give or take. It would pay for printing and toward faculty salary for a class.
Im sure many of the big Sci-fi and fantasy publishing houses might seriously consider donating to an endowment like that, especially for TLE which is one of the more consistant magazines out there.
Someone should write up a prospectus and see if you can get someone to notice it.
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Im sure many of the big Sci-fi and fantasy publishing houses might seriously consider donating to an endowment like that, especially for TLE which is one of the more consistant magazines out there.
Someone should write up a prospectus and see if you can get someone to notice it.
I'm willing to do it, but I would need help, having never done an endowment prospectus before and having no idea who to send it to.
Edit: I do technical writing work, so I promise I know something about writing stuff like this---I won't completely embarrass you guys.
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Just to chime in some more, I do agree with Stacer and Shrain that there is a huge bias against SF&F among the BYU English dept. Which is why I would strongly urge moving to a new department and/or college. Any program can benefit by having a publication attached to it. The English Deptartment is just too elitist to recognize this aparently.
When I worked at the HumPub, I saw all sorts of publications that came from varying departments. There was a enirimental science mag. that was support by the Family Science Dept., a linguistics mag. supported by the math dept., etc... Admittibly most of these publications were short lived, usually only publishing once then disappearing. But if the English Dept/College of Humanities won't support TLE there has to be someone willing to take an already established award winning publication. Even departments like Independent Study or Student Accessibility could support TLE.
Also, from my experience, paid editors were usually a bad thing. Far too many of the paid editors simply took the money given them and then turned out a mediocre publication. There often was a lot of jeolosy that developed between staff members if the editor was paid yet the unpaid staff ended up doing nearly as much or more work than the editor. Then there was all the competition for the editor position that would flare up whenever there was an opening. And the constant backbiting/sour grapes moaning by those who didn't get the editor position. And the huge staff turn-overs in publication with paid staff. And the unwillingness of paid editors to leave anything for the next issue or to consult/train the next editor, creating big continuity errors.
Not all of the publications with paid editors were that way, but a lot were. Some were only that way for a few issues until Linda or someone else would step in and get things running again. There is just a big difference between a volunteer and an employee.
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Just a wild idea, but has anyone looked at the U of U? I know its a ways away from provo, but if its the only way to save TLE I'd go for it.
Like I said, just a wild idea. I'm still in brainstorming mode.
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Going to the U of U would be a little extreme. It might be easier to find another supporter to TLE. I would suggest the philosophy department as I new a lot of Sci-Fi fans in that department and Sci-Fi tends to be philosophical in nature. A good contact might be Prof. Denise Packard, as he encourages students to explore philosophy through storytelling (as least that all we did when I took his class).
I think another department would support TLE, it just a matter of finding which departments.
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I think that's a good idea, talking to the philosophy department. I'm trying to think of anyone I knew in family science or history or at the library that might be interested, and it makes me wonder--would something like that be something the library could/would support, independent of a college? I'm not sure how such things work at BYU, whether they have to have the support of a department. The Black Student Union doesn't need a college, does it? What about the Highland Arts Society (when it was still around)--were they sponsored by a certain department? Is it different for clubs than for a publication?
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It is different for clubs than publications, course some clubs have publications...
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Could Quark help keep TLE going?
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Quark abandoned the Duck so we don't speak of them anymore. They're dead to us.
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Where's the Quantum Duck? We never did get a firm resolution to that issue--he's gone from Quark, but does TLE still use him? There be trouble if they don't.
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The way I hear it, soon they'll be dead to everyone--and good riddance! ;D
At any rate, approaching another dept at BYU seems more practical than going to the U of U where you'd really have to relocate people or to UVSC, which already has an SF journal and is low in funding.
Nessa, I haven't written a grant proposal either, but I would be happy to be a reader or even help write it if you want. You've got my email.
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It appears to me that current TLE staffers have not gone about this completely the right way. I do understand your desire to stand on your own footing when dealing with the English department, but clearly the time for this passed some weeks or months ago. As soon as it was clear they would not listen to you, every outside resource available should have been put to the task. Where are the letters from alumni, from parents of alumni, to the department heads, to the college heads, to the university president, to the Alumni Association? Where are the letters to the Daily Universe and the interviews published in the newspaper? All of these things could happen, and should happen, and if the English department does not want to change their minds, they would thereby be forced to change their minds.
Every person who has ever been on the staff and received some gain thereby should write. Their parents who sent them to BYU in the first place should especially write. It should be done, it should be done today, and it should have been done weeks ago.
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I sent my letter yesterday. Perhaps I should send a copy to the Daily Universe?
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A copy to the Daily Universe would be good. I agree with Ookla, there should be more letters.
Since the English Dept. almost got rid of the entire editing program before it was saved by the Linguistics Dept., I really have felt that the English Dept. administration does not have good priorities for its students.
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I talked to Sally today. She and I are going to go meet with the English chair, Greg Clark, in the near future. (If at all possible.)
She said that UVSC really wasn't a good option, in her opinion--even not considering Eric's objections.
Has anyone yet mentioned the honors department? They could be a place to take this.
Oh, and Ookla, I think that the TLE staff has done well with this. They only found out themselves a couple of weeks ago, and Mr. M. may have had a point in keeping it quiet for a short time, thereby letting the TLE people argue and perhaps change the department's mind quietly, letting the department save face before letting this thing explode.
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Where's the Quantum Duck? We never did get a firm resolution to that issue--he's gone from Quark, but does TLE still use him? There be trouble if they don't.
Yes, the Quantum Duck is still alive and well at TLE.
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I talked to Sally today. She and I are going to go meet with the English chair, Greg Clark, in the near future.
Ex-cellent! He's a bit of a Gloomy Gus, though, just to give you the heads up if you've never dealt with him before. (Case in point: I remember telling him I'd be missing class to present a paper that was accepted at an international ALA Jewish American Lit symposium and he shrugged and said, "Well, do what you have to do." And that was it; no kudos or anything. Weird. He's just like that.)
Has anyone yet mentioned the honors department? They could be a place to take this.
/me palms her forehead.
The Honors Dept--of course! Why didn't I think of them. Hmm. Anyway, I think that's the best idea yet for moving to a different dept at BYU. :D
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I think philosophy would be slightly better than Honors because every english professor I ever took a class from, aside from Cleon Skousen, really wanted in their heart of hearts to be a philosophy professor. Switching to the philosophy department would be a knife in the eye to all those sanctimonious jerks.
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I would try the philosophy dept. first myself.
The honors dept. sometimes becomes very controlling of its projects.
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Switching to the philosophy department would be a knife in the eye to all those sanctimonious jerks.
oooh. Eye gouging. Yes, please!
Edit: If what 42 (and Skar) says is true, I guess the Philosophy department might be better, but why not approach *both* at the same time? It's not like we're sending out simultaneous submissions or something. I don't think it would be unprofessional, but rather, strategically smart. Approaching both might not only show how serious TLE is about this but also make them more eager to take TLE on. Or maybe not.... Thoughts?
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I don't think a "bidding war" would ensue, but I see no reason to stop at one office and then the other immediately, even if they're thinking about it. Pursue it!
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I wanted to toss in offers of help for anything that can be farmed out and will happily put in donations and get the word out to more exTLE staff that I've kept track of.
Has thought been given to fundraisers? I'm betting we could get a lot of donations.
~J
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Has anyone yet mentioned the honors department? They could be a place to take this.
*smacks forehead* I didn't even think of them, and I'm graduating with honors.
Hmm...there's an official luncheon tomorrow. I wonder if that would be a good place to gauge their opinion...
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TLE could get donations, but BYU is finicky about that kind of thing. TLE must tread lightly for funding. I still suggest an endowment for TLE, whether it sticks with BYU or not, because it means perpetual funding. Usually you have to get on a waiting list and perform all sorts of bureaucratic circus tricks to get BYU to cooperate with outside funding. Forunately, we have the ninja monkeys on our side. Or at least several persistent exTLEers. I'm looking into it.
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Ah. Sounds like perfect timing to me, Mr. M!
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I remember the honors program. My one objection would be if they wanted only honors students on the TLE staff once it was theirs. If I remember the Honors crowd correctly it was made up, in the majority, by the same kind of people who think all fiction is a waste of time and/or think the only "good" fiction is approved "literary" fiction. That would put kind of a damper on participation by the people who actually like SF&F.
Perhaps that demographic has changed?
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I was going to suggest the honors department, but then I remembered that I disliked almost everything about the BYU honors department. They have very obtuse ideas about how to run things, and I very much doubt you'd get the kind of autonomy that TLE thrives on. It's worth a shot, though--it's better than dying.
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Oh, and Ookla, I think that the TLE staff has done well with this. They only found out themselves a couple of weeks ago, and Mr. M. may have had a point in keeping it quiet for a short time, thereby letting the TLE people argue and perhaps change the department's mind quietly, letting the department save face before letting this thing explode.
I'm sorry, I wasn't quite clear on the timeline. It still seems like they're going from Plan A to Plans C-G and skipping Plan B. While Plan B is still a viable option, it would make more sense to me to focus on it--the other plans can still be developed as contingencies, but it seems like they're being focused on...at least from what I've read in this thread.
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Well, we have had an interesting turn of events. TLE will continue to be sponsored by BYU!
Previously we mentioned that we could not find a department that would be home to us. Well, it turns out that the reason Linguistics and English Language department wouldn't take us is they thought English was bluffing. Apparently this has happened in the past where English was trying to get rid of a student journal and asked Linguistics to take it. When Linguistics said no, English would be like, fine, we'll keep it. So they figured it was the same deal.
So Matt was trying to get things squared away to make the magazine independent and Linda Adams found out that it was officially happening and she went to talk to the Linguistics chair, Lynn Henrichsen, once again. When he found out that TLE would officially leave BYU, he realized it was not a bluff and said that they could take it into his department. Dr. Alan Manning has volunteered to be our advisor (I believe he has written a sci-fi novel previously). So it looks like that for now we're good. The university will be switching the budget for the magazine over to Linguistics, so we won't have to worry about budget issues (I'd gotten the impression that the English department used their budget to pay for TLE, but it actually comes down from higher up, I'm not sure where, so that will just be transferred over).
Also, Dr. Manning wants to be way involved. He wants to come to TLE once a week! In a way I'm worried about his excessive involvement, but I applaud his enthusiasm. And hey, isn't it great that we're going to continue with BYU?
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I'm so glad to hear that. Did our letters make any difference?
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AWESOME! I'm very pleased. And, i'll still do volunteer work that can be done electronically.
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Wow, that's great! What a relief.
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I'm so glad to hear that. Did our letters make any difference?
I really don't know. Since they were sent to the English department, which had no influence over the decision made by the Linguistics department, I doubt it factored in to the Linguistics department deciding to take TLE. It was more that Linguistics realized that English was not bluffing. Of course, that doesn't mean that it didn't help. I just don't know. I wonder if those letters, sent to Linguistics as a thank you for taking TLE (along with what was mentioned about how great TLE was for your careers and what not) might not help them realize what a great decision they made. Maybe they'll remember those letters if they ever wonder if TLE is a benefit.
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Hurray!
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a thank you letter would not be out of order, I think. We're all ready to write letters of protest, but I think we should show the linguistics department how glad we are they did this.
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I had a class from Manning. He's definitely enthusiastic about subjects he likes (to the point of making the class REALLY hard). He can also be rather stubborn about his opinions (to the point of refusing to make the class any easier--even when the averages on tests were like in the Ds, as I recall). Should be an interesting experience. But congrats on the success.
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I had a class from Manning. He's definitely enthusiastic about subjects he likes (to the point of making the class REALLY hard). He can also be rather stubborn about his opinions (to the point of refusing to make the class any easier--even when the averages on tests were like in the Ds, as I recall). Should be an interesting experience. But congrats on the success.
Very intersting. I'm glad that TLE will stay at BYU - much happiness and making things much easier for everyone.
Dr. Alan Manning has volunteered to be our advisor (I believe he has written a sci-fi novel previously).
A really BAD sci-fi novel. Yucky bad. I bought a copy online my freshman year and I left it at the Pub because I didn't want to read it anymore. If you want to give it a try it should be in the HubPub library.
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a thank you letter would not be out of order, I think. We're all ready to write letters of protest, but I think we should show the linguistics department how glad we are they did this.
Agreed - and the more thank you letters the better, I'm all over this one.
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Yeah, I'll send one. Can you give me an address?
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That was a bit a good news. I would have been really upset had BYU dropped TLE. I'm still dissappointed in the English dept., but that's nothing new. I'm glad the Linguistic Dept. is so level headed.
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Yeah, I'll send one. Can you give me an address?
Department of Linguistics and English Language
4064 JFSB
Provo, Utah 84602
I'm not sure who you would want to address it to. You could address it to Dr. Lynn Henrichsen, the chair of Linguistics; Phyllis Daniel, the department secretary; or Dr. Alan Manning, the new TLE advisor.
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That is really good news. It would be horrible if BYU dropped TLE. I'll get my "thank you" letter out before the end of the week.
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I'll write a thank you letter today. This is wonderful news.
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Yes! It worked. I paid a little midnight visit to the head of the Linguistics department and told him that he could either change his tune about TLE or I'd pay him another visit and that if I did I wouldn't just pour gasoline all over him in bed, I'd light it too.
Hopefully the cops don't read this, he was pretty upset. I'm glad he took me seriously though.
:D
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"Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told me that if I didn't take Lorraine out that he'd melt my brain."
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That's AWESOME! As much as I lampoon Dr. Manning, he is one of my favorite professors in the department. He'll be a great advisor.
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Woo HOO! Awesome how things work out sometimes. I just hope that Dr. Manning contributes without being overbearing. Time to celebrate and send a thank you card. Oh, and we'd better be sure to thank Vader, too, for intervening. ;)
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Oops. I just saw that this thread was updated. I will DEFINITELY be writing some thank-you letters.
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Just wanted to let you all know that the Chair of the Linguistics department greatly appreciated the thank you letters sent to thank them for taking on TLE. He said he didn't realize what an impact TLE is on students who works with on it and they will be filed away (and not thrown away) for possible future uses. Hopefully to be used against anyone who suggests getting rid of us!
Thanks for all who sent letters!
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Whoops. I completely forgot to send mine. I will try to remember next week, after I get over vacation brain.