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Messages - muboop

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« on: January 31, 2009, 04:12:21 PM »
Quote from: little_wilson on January 31, 2009, 04:39:04 AM
Most of the time I have been addressing the post as a whole....leaving out the irrelevant bits, but to everything that matters....

And I'm not sure what you want me to address. The death-birth relation? Or something in the second post? It sounds like it's something in the second post, but I can't find anything other than what I already mentioned--about Vin and Elend.

ah it doesn't matter, nothing is being solved or changed by this thread!


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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« on: January 31, 2009, 04:32:01 AM »
Quote from: little_wilson on January 31, 2009, 03:53:33 AM
Birth rates.....

Site I used:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005067.html

Live births in 1930(before WWII)--2.6 mil
1935 --2.3 mil
1940--2.5 mil
1945--2.8 mil
1950--3.6 mil
1955--4.1 mil

Here's a graph:

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/SamuelBernard2.gif

And I personally think they DID fall in love fully. They overcame their problems together. And I think the way the characters are portrayed in the book pretty effectively shows that they wouldn't act that way....



i misread this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-World_War_II_baby_boom

it says still do that there was a baby boom in states during a nd before war, and it continued until after.

however it states that it is mainly a post war thing.

regardless, appreciate if you do not refer to only one country? just because it makes things to specific! im going for general things(for future referance of course)
 
just because your use of a singel country could be argued agianst my use of say america and it drags to an unecesay debate that neither wins!

however i concede that point,
but i still stand by my second of those two posts, and i would like to see your opinions on those??

everybody i have to say i dont know if this thread is going anywhere.
both sides seem to make quite resonable statements and long posts, followed by the other side picking out a particular area in said post and exploiting the faults in it. all the while never answerin the rest of each post!

we seem to only argue over eachothers flaws in statements?

i dont think this will lead to a real debate if we only pick the areas we cna win without ever conceding those we cannot?


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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« on: January 31, 2009, 03:17:01 AM »
Quote from: little_wilson on January 31, 2009, 03:09:32 AM
Quote from: Reaves on January 31, 2009, 02:47:12 AM
It would be for me. It would turn me on.

Heheh. Totally....

And Muboop, it might make them more regular humans, but they're not. They have psychological hang-ups, both of them, as someone else already pointed out. So the fact that there's so little fits, I think. Now, if they were normal--say, Vin didn't have her trust issues, and Elend was more like the other nobles--then yes, I would say more sexual stuff would be necessary. Not a whole lot (since the plot really doesn't center on that, but it would be more characteristic of the characters themselves), but more than there currently is.

And yes, you have made yourself clear on your opinions. I believe most of us have.

Oh, and about that travel thing. It's only 25 days, so it's not really all THAT long, but for me, it's quite a while. I've been out of the US once and that was about 8 years ago, to British Columbia, Canada (which I'm not entirely sure should even count as leaving the US... ::))...I haven't even been on an airplane in 10 or 11 years, since I went to DC....it's sad.

I'm sorry to hear you don't get to travel as much! :) i really am! i believe it is something to really be experienced! oddly enough Canada is one of the few places i have not travelled to.

BTW i don't mean to seem condescending on this issue, however i do feel the need to state, i haven't been pampered at the same time! mum is a nurse and dad a teacher, we aren't rich. i have worked for everything i have gotten and every holiday iv gone on.

i know about the hang ups etc... but i don't know! i don't thin its the same still! :) regardless about the hangups the urges would still be there. i say this out of knowledge about people with hangups. my ex was a rape victim. this was sad, (for record i never pushed anything on her ) she once told me she has the same urges and wants as everyone else, just she cannot follow through!

if this was the case, i think the would of been an excellent area for brandon to explore!

Vin and elend getting over these blocks to fully let themselves fall in love etc... i realise he may not have time and would possibly detract form story but i cannot help but wonder! :)

(also i need to say i realise everyone react to bad experience different ways, but who's to say they wouldn't act this way)

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« on: January 31, 2009, 03:11:28 AM »
Quote from: Reaves on January 31, 2009, 02:47:12 AM
Quote from: Used to be an Important Bookstore Guy on January 30, 2009, 05:31:43 PM

 I mean seriously, sex wouldn't be my first concern if giant blue monsters and dude with spikes for eyes wanted my head.

It would be for me. It would turn me on.

heroic answer! :P

but think about it guys, when war is looming or in progress there is a boom in baby births as people feel the need to get their dna passed on, they might die so need baby now etc... i cannot find where i found the proof for this so if anyone else can provide much appreciated!

either way, chance of death increases child birht! as much as you say its last thing on mind... is it really?

poo i say! id definately go with my genes and give it a go with mt girlfriend! anything else would be just ignoring my instincts! plus im probably dead anyway :P

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« on: January 31, 2009, 02:34:26 AM »
Quote from: little_wilson on January 30, 2009, 07:50:27 AM
Muboop, I don't see why there would be any problem with you posting further here. The only advice I would give is try not to take posts personally. All we're doing is having an intelligent discussion/debate on sex and sexuality and our own personal opinions on it. Expanding our minds and understanding other peoples opinions never hurt anyone. You only get hurt when you take others' opinions personally, especially when they're not meaning to insult you. Also, you don't necessarily have to focus on one person's comments per post....Or even try to refute everything in one person's long posts (like mine). I know that I was the one who started that with you, but....if you do still want to debate here (which again, I see no problem with), address others and don't focus on just one person....

And good old Firefox. That's actually what I use, and I've got it set up to underline when something's misspelled. I believe you can set it up by going into Tools and then Options and then the Advanced Tab....And it should be that you check the box next to "check my spelling as I type"...at least that's the way it is on mine. Plus, there's a spell check in the "post reply" page on TWG. So you can always use that too.

And the question on Vin and Elend. Ookla already answered it, and I agree with him....He worded it better than I would've (not the first time), and...yeah. I don't really have anything to add to it. There could've been more. I don't see the necessity of it, though.

im sorry, i dont mean to seem rude in saying this, i just cant hold this debate with someone who can see the world as in my opinion black and white!(not i say my opinion :) ) i cant change how i feel, and this fact leads me to get to involved and take it all personally! i just cannot seperate it. im honest enough to admit my flaw. so i will deal with it! i will step back or will say uncalled for stuff or take a side again, im doing me best not to! as i said if anyone wants to continuepm me, i will not address this again otherwise! :)

i wont go furthur into this as i see no need, if you go through my posts carefully i think iv made myself clear!

but in referance as to what you said about it being needed, em i agree and disagree at same time!

i dont think the story needed it. i thin however it would of given the characters more depth and reality? just making them seem more everyday human etc...(that last scentence isnt phrased well as i cannot figure out how to word it correctly, but i hope my meaning gets across. :)


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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« on: January 30, 2009, 04:04:19 AM »
Im not going to lie, im finding it very hard to not respond to alot of these comments.  but i already said i would not. if anyone wants to take up the convo/debate wiht me please pm me or soemthing, as i dont want to have it here.

as for my spelling mistakes i apologise, im used to using my safari browser, which automatically underlines any spelling mistakes, my laptop is in for repairs, so using home pc, which means firefox

So instead ill respond only to the topic at hand:


Can i ask the people who are opposed to more sexuality in the book(now my defining of sexuality may not include the actual act or any details, just more evidence of say elends attractiveness towards Vin),
can i ask you people, why?

do you not think it would make the story more realistic for a couple who have no moral obligations against it?
sex is never a source of uncomfort for these people to my knowledge and mix that with the prevaliency of brothels and some of the nobles "habits" it clearly is natural in their setting. So would it not be more relaistic int heir world and time and setting for them to be a tad more physical even in just if they kiss more, or a thought from elend or vin thining they would love to kiss or soemthing?

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« on: January 29, 2009, 11:17:12 AM »
firstly im going to say this will be my last post in thsi particular topic devoted to this particular poster
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fair enough however its the only way i could take what you said!
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I doubt that, but...oh well. Doesn't even matter right now.
em i wudn't doubt it, im not perfect it annoyed me, i acted on impulse as i do most times!
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mabey but mabey it is an unbringing of where you are from or soemthing, but when im from its common at my age. im only 20 btw. and although i dont condone people who sleep around, i think perfectly aceptable between two people who are in love and mature enough to understand and appreciate it. i think a marriage title shouldn't have a place in it.
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Where I'm from has nothing to do with it. It's how I've been raised, and the morals my parents have helped instill in me. If you must know, I'm LDS, and the city I live is actually pretty darn Anti-Mormon. We have a temple here (very recently) and we almost weren't even able to get that because of the huge public outcry against it. Plus, I spend so much of my time online that where I'm from is irrelevant to this argument.

but see this again could be seen as to back up my points, your parents morals, put on them by their parents etc... its all due to upbringing, which is what im trying to get across! if you said yourself that you know basically few few if any ppl who have had sex before marriage, then you either live in completly sheltered life or its due to upbringing, the net gives ideas, but if you were to be insulted etc for acting on these ideas which im assuming you would consider area and background. then it would make you less open to the ideas! it seem to me to be a very judgemental downward spiral!

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i ask this out of curiousity mabey, and of form of debate. do you think a couple together for half a year and married, that they are ok to sleep together. are a couple together for say 6 years living together whom fuly intend to get married in the future but dont want to make a full committment yet. are they immoral?
can you explain to why they would be if you think they are and the married couple are?
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I would rather not answer this, because I have a strong feeling you're going to take offense to it. I'm not trying to give offense. But since you seem to REALLY want to know my opinions, fine. IN MY OPINION, sex in marriage is not immoral, even if that marriage doesn't last. Sex outside of marriage is immoral. Heck, I personally don't think members of the opposite sex should even be living together if they're not married and not family....But again, that's just my opinion, and my personal beliefs. I'm not saying anyone's evil for doing it. I'm just saying I wouldn't. I'm also not saying that I look down upon people who live together. That's their lifestyle. They don't share my beliefs. I'm fine with that. I have my opinions and beliefs. They have theirs. I don't like it when people say my opinion and beliefs are wrong, and so I'm not going to do that others. Simple as that.
I will never understand this. i feel the couple of six years have a much stronger relationship and are much better equipped to have sex and take what come wiht it, as well as more mature to not jump into things, if they have a kid, they are likely to be able to take it easier etc... so why should the married couple get preferance?(not a question to you just tryign to express opinion)

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i genuinely believe marriage is only a title, and one that seems to mean less and less every day with the high rate of divorce.
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And I believe that marriage is much more than just a title. I have to agree with you, though, that the world seems to be thinking less and less of it. And that's sad.

i cant agree with you, now a days marriage is taken to lightly, its ment to be some supreme commitment, but so long as people dont see it as that then it cannot be valued as that! getting married doenst mean you are a stronger couple or anything. long term love and caring is what i put emphesis on now!

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you have to agree do that where you are from has a minority in in views, very few places in the christian world are as zealous as your area. i think you take the word of "God" to the unecessar extreme for the most part. Ireland is where im from and we are by no means not a religious country, but yet we dont try to think to hold others to our own standards, but rather hold ourselves to our own! and let others do as they will.
we are a rather tolerant people!
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I actually think Utah is much more zealous than my area, but....that's just me. And I think I've already shown that I agree with you about not holding others to my standards, and just sticking to my own. I'm not going to judge you if you don't live up to MY standards. They are mine. Not yours.
ok, so you can name one more zealous state, i wouldnt know all the states individualy having not seen them all. but see, i commend you on saying that you wont judge me for not living up to your standards, but does that go for the rest of you? i can imagine(and i am posibly wrong) that if soemone where you live was to act in such ways as alot of the rest of the world then they would be shunned and judged? creating a stigma about it all and making it harder to live their life choices?

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see thats you imo taking more from the bible then it is giving, it isnt worded there so why create it so?
also i feel totaly justified in my comment, as i am right in what i am saying.
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Go ahead and feel justified. Just also know that it was rude. And why create something from what wasn't there in the Bible? Because they're my standards, and if I want to think that the adultery mentioned in the 10 Commandments also applies to any sexual sin, than I can. Just like I can think that the taking God's name in vain in the 3rd Commandment can also apply to swearing in general. It's my own prerogative. As long as I don't hold you to the same, it shouldn't matter.

i thought what you said was rude to! to twist the words of the bible to suit and support your moral standards and in the mean time to tell me im wrong when i say it exactly how is it dictionary perfect! i responded in like imo!

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you cannot turn around to me and basically call me stupid for saying sex before marriage isnt in the commandments then say oh but i dont realy take the words at their actual meanings... because that is what i said! i gave their meanings. end of!
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I never called you stupid, or even implied that. You can infer what you want though. That's your prerogative.
ah but the implications, to say im wrong is to imply im mistaken or didnt research it well enough or mabey to say you know more then me? doenst matter regardless! these things all lead o a deficit in my knowledge. i take this very personally as im a very intelligent person!

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if jesus was so perfect why not let us see his flaws?
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I personally don't think He had any flaws. He made no mistakes. This is what makes Him perfect. In my opinion.
now here is where i think we have our main problem. i disagree! as i stated about nicea earlier! he most definately had flaws! else why would the church have to decide if divine or not and destroy material? if he had no flaws then he would of had nothign of humanity in him bar a face. and he could be seen doing no wrong. 

the truth was hidden form you by the church! i personally think it would be a much better guideline if we cold see jesus shortcomings! after all nobody was perfect, even jesus!

to quote alexander pope "To err is human, to forgive divine." he was called human by his apostles, by god etc... he was human meaning he could make mistakes, meaning he had flaws. i believe they were minor compared to most people, but nobody is perfect!


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travelling does require money! i have paid for every trip myself i have ever been on all the while getting a chemical engineering degree in the most prestigeous university in ireland. it can be done if you want! iv travelled to the states for 3 months, been to asia, australia and about 80% of europe!
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.....congratulations?
kinda putting me down no? especially since my next line. rather childish

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not that im saying im great or anything, but im more trying to say, its worth it! give it a shot! broadens your mind! seriously so! and the experiences you get are worth it
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Oh, trust me, I know that it's worth it. I haven't even gone, but just from what I've thought and imagined, I know for a fact that it will broaden my mind. (and on a related sidenote: My passport came today! YES! ;D)
im glad you got your passport! i cannot for life of me actually wonder why such a huge amount of american population dont have one!  i think it is part of the close-mindness!

if you cna come back form a year or so of travelling through the world including europe etc and still believe as you do now i will be shocked...

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i do, and i respectively disagree with most of them.
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Respectfully? (since I'm guessing that's what you meant)....I wouldn't really call everything you said respectful, but again....what do I know?
in that last post i made a point of not saying  anything insulting..


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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« on: January 29, 2009, 02:39:41 AM »
Quote from: Brenna on January 29, 2009, 02:25:55 AM
To be clearer, statements like "Use your dictionary more often" or implying that where a person lives obviously negates their ability to understand something are what I'd consider hostile and rude (picking on those specifically because they're the most recent and I needed a quick example, not because I'm calling out the poster in question).
i feel totaly justified in what i said!

the poster i was talking to about the dictionary told me i was wrong in something i said, even though if you actually read the words i was fully correct!

telling someone they are wrong without checking the facts is just bad imo!
if you are going to accume me of being wrong check the source!

and as for where from, i wasnt being derogatory, not at all! and i was right to!
i merely said that the person had the attributes of a certain area! and i hit the nail on the head!

i think people need to travel and see the world before they set their ideals in stone! how can they judge anothers situation or life when they havent seen or experienced anything about it!

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« on: January 29, 2009, 02:35:55 AM »
Quote from: little_wilson on January 29, 2009, 01:10:43 AM
Muboop, I wasn't trying to call you a sinner. I was simply stating my personal beliefs, because that's what it seemed to me you were asking.
fair enough however its the only way i could take what you said!

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As for my supposed naivety. I'm not that naive. Sheltered, yes. Naive, no. And yes, there IS a difference. The difference being experience as opposed to knowledge. So I'm "sheltered" because I really haven't experienced a whole lot. But I'm not naive, because I actually know quite a bit.

mabey but mabey it is an unbringing of where you are from or soemthing, but when im from its common at my age. im only 20 btw. and although i dont condone people who sleep around, i think perfectly aceptable between two people who are in love and mature enough to understand and appreciate it. i think a marriage title shouldn't have a place in it.

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I'm not even going to answer your questions about the immorality. You know my opinions on that. They haven't changed since I wrote that, and I really doubt that they're going to change.
i ask this out of curiousity mabey, and of form of debate. do you think a couple together for half a year and married, that they are ok to sleep together. are a couple together for say 6 years living together whom fuly intend to get married in the future but dont want to make a full committment yet. are they immoral?
can you explain to why they would be if you think they are and the married couple are?

i genuinely believe marriage is only a title, and one that seems to mean less and less every day with the high rate of divorce.

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Where do I live? Southern Idaho. I wasn't trying to be stereotypical when I said the people I know who are married have only slept with each other. That was a statement of fact. I was debating you saying it was "rare" to find people who hadn't. It's only rare depending on where you look. Yes, there are PLENTY of places were it is rare to find those like you said. But there are other places where it's incredibly easy. I live in a place like the latter.
you have to agree do that where you are from has a minority in in views, very few places in the christian world are as zealous as your area. i think you take the word of "God" to the unecessar extreme for the most part. Ireland is where im from and we are by no means not a religious country, but yet we dont try to think to hold others to our own standards, but rather hold ourselves to our own! and let others do as they will.
we are a rather tolerant people!

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I kind of take offense to the whole "use a dictionary more often" statement. I know the dictionary definition of adultery. To me, though, it's more than what's just in the dictionary. It's more than cheating on your spouse. To me, it's immorality in general.
see thats you imo taking more from the bible then it is giving, it isnt worded there so why create it so?
also i feel totaly justified in my comment, as i am right in what i am saying.

you cannot turn around to me and basically call me stupid for saying sex before marriage isnt in the commandments then say oh but i dont realy take the words at their actual meanings... because that is what i said! i gave their meanings. end of!

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Yes, I have heard of the Council of Niccea. I actually did a project for a Religion class on it a little over a year ago. What you said is nothing new to me. I believe the Council was a horrible idea. A bunch of people getting together to decide and vote about God and Christ? That's just dumb.
i totaly agree! and due to this the bible hs been distorted!
we dont actually know about christs humanity at all! something which i think is way more important. to see how he acted when faced with situations we would face everyday!
we can speculate as you do that he was the perfect person, but all we know of are his greatness! he was beaten etc everything to do with his death and his greatness before it. but did he ever give into temptatiosn of any sort whether to fight back etc?

sure we were given pleanty of important stuff, but not everything! if jesus was so perfect why not let us see his flaws? let us see how he got past them, how he conquered his fears and made up for any mistakes!

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As for learning more. No problems there. I'm also a university student, and I can always learn more. Love learning more. And you're right. I do need to travel more. But traveling requires money, which I'm just a little short on right now....Although, I am planning on going to Britain and France in May through BYU-I, but....again. Money.

travelling does require money! i have paid for every trip myself i have ever been on all the while getting a chemical engineering degree in the most prestigeous university in ireland. it can be done if you want! iv travelled to the states for 3 months, been to asia, australia and about 80% of europe! not that im saying im great or anything, but im more trying to say, its worth it! give it a shot! broadens your mind! seriously so! and the experiences you get are worth it

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I'm not making any "calls". Pretty much every statement that I have made so far on here, I've qualified in some way that this is as it is in my own life. The people that I know. My personal experience. I know there are other views that exist. I have a good idea what most of those views entail. But I do not share some of those, and so I was simply stating my own opinions. Take them for what you will.
i do, and i respectively disagree with most of them.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« on: January 29, 2009, 12:22:15 AM »
fixed all asked to fix! :)

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« on: January 29, 2009, 12:16:01 AM »
Quote from: Used to be an Important Bookstore Guy on January 29, 2009, 12:07:24 AM
id also ask that you tone down the hostility a tad. many of those sentences feel like direct attacks on people. the profanity doesnt help much either.  it seems like you are getting a bit riled up over some pretty mild comments.  Come on people, lets keep the discussion mature and not result to blatantly insulting people's comments and beliefs.
i just fixed the stuff,
as for profanity if it offends i apologise, i genuinely was riled up!

i dont judge people for how they live, yet i dont know i felt while i was reading thsi that i was being called a sinner etc, it got to me, i havent time now to tone down profanity, as i have to go help my bro with homework. ill do it late if i get a chance!

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« on: January 28, 2009, 11:48:51 PM »


Quote from: little_wilson on January 28, 2009, 02:22:31 AM
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It is even rare today in christian world to find people who in their whole lives have only slept wiht their husband or wife. Assuming they believe in such a marriage in first place!

Really? Hmm. Now, this is another thing I don't talk about with the people I know who are married (many friends, my parents, 2 of my brothers, etc), but I'm pretty sure none of them (male or female) have slept with anyone other than their spouse. After they were married. (that's not saying they slept with people beforehand. That's saying they didn't have sex until after they were married and only with their spouse)

where do you live? i hate to say it but im going to have to assume states right? and the inner states at that from a very christian community?  i may be wrong you just sound so stereotypical... and iv been there, its like that...(im well travelled, iv never been anywhere like some inner american states, they genuinely scare me they are so different, note i dont say wrong but just different! :)

look, im in university, in fact i barely know anyone guy or girl who hasn't had sex, its just the way it is! people where im from marry very late-average is like late 20's earl 30's. under these circumstances they are likely to have many relationships which can last years each, so these people have slept together because they were comfortable with it, and it felt right to share themselves with someone they love!

is this immoral? hell no! if you think it is i honesly think you need to rethink your outlook on life-*edited out profanity*

this is the question i realy want you to answer, is it immoral for a couple who are in love and married after a few months to have sex? even do they might not last, barely know eachother etc?
now, is it immoral for a couple who are together for years and know they are strong and will survive anything but due to jobs or whatever in their lives they havent gotten married? thats like saying its immoral to live with eachother... some people just cant live with eachother, better they find out before they get married and have a sh**e life due to it!
Quote from: little_wilson on January 28, 2009, 02:22:31 AM

i think that the reason religion put out that this is a suposed sin was to stop the fighting between people.
 after all what is religions main purpose but to teach tolerance and give everyone a better and more fair life(opinion dont debate me on this).
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The only beef I have with this is that I don't believe that ANY religion preaches that sex is a sin. I could be wrong about that. I do believe that many religions, like I've already stated, preach that immorality is a sin.

i dont care, they make it a stigma which has in turn affected so many people, people have been killed stoned etc for having sex and even for some married couples of tens of years, the stigma created by the church has made it all but impossible for a shy person to approach someone about sexual help. sex is a important part of any relationship, to say that its only for people married is poo, and i blame the church for the stigma!


Quote from: little_wilson on January 28, 2009, 02:22:31 AM

After all it isnt even in the ten commandments. a mix of that and the need to end the gluttonous lifestyle people had as it was getting out of control.
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Whoa. It's not in the 10 commandments? Really? What about 7? Thou shalt not commit adultery?....

use your dictoionary more often,
definition of adultery...
Adultery is the voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and another person who is not his or her spouse.

so adultery is basically cheating... where is the cheating in two unmarried people having sex?

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So its immoral to sleep with soemone to whom you are not wed? i disagree! I personally dont sleep around etc, however i have slept with past girl friends! does this make me immoral? even do i loved them?
Quote from: little_wilson on January 28, 2009, 02:22:31 AM
In my opinion, yes, it's immoral. Sex is supposed to be about procreation. Not about fulfilling your wants/desires/passions/whatever. Sex isn't the only way to show your love.

bull crap... sex is about that yes, but its not only, if sex is only about procreation as you say it, then why is it a big deal if we have it once we check not to "knock up" the girl?
sex is somehting between a man and a woman, it can be emotionless or totaly emotinal, its about sharing yourself with someone and hopefully if you are lucky enough sharing your love!

again no its not the only way to share love, but it is a way! deny that and you are a very close minded individual -*edited due to profanity*

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the bibel was written with the sole reason to make god seem divine and tok all humanity out of it.

Quote from: little_wilson on January 28, 2009, 02:22:31 AM
God seem divine? God IS divine. He's God. God=divine. You seem to be under the impression that the Bible is just a story. I think differently. Yes, there are stories IN it (parables), but not everything is story. Moses, Abraham, Joseph (sold into Egypt), Christ. All real people.

ha ha i mis wrote there, i ment jesus not god. i never doubt the people were alive etc, as i said i actually know a shed load about the bible(dad studied 7 years to be a priest and dropped out cos he fell in love with my mum and roman catholic means he would never be able to marry-i have a better teacher in this subject them most do!)

but yes, the bible is stories!
they have proven the bible wasnt constructed when it was said to be, the bibel of matthew etc, are believed to of beed written hundreds of years later in fact just for an example, possibly 10th hand information!

i believe in all the good teachings of the church, however its hardly without flaw. the crusades etc...  just look at the popes during the renaissance!


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do you think jesus never had sexual thoughts?

Quote from: little_wilson on January 28, 2009, 02:22:31 AM
I believe Christ was perfect. "Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:28). Since I believe adultery was already stated in the 10 Commandments, and I really don't think Christ broke those, basically, no. I don't think Christ had sexual thoughts.

read what i said about adultery... if he never married he could of never committed it!
he could of slept with every unmarried woman in the world and still not committed adultery...

as for matthews direct memories of what christ said hundreds of years later... dont get me started!




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it also says nowhere if he had sex or not!

Quote from: little_wilson on January 28, 2009, 02:22:31 AM
If he did, they were only with his wife....assuming he was married (I'm inclined to believe he was, and I know I'm not alone in this line of thought, but there's no proof of it)

never disputing this! however i dispute that you think he had no sexual thoughts! his genes decide he will!

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never once is he or his father called a virgin!
so christs father was a sinner? sure...

Quote from: little_wilson on January 28, 2009, 02:22:31 AM
was it really necessary to the story of the Bible for them to be labelled as virgins? No. And by "father" I'm assuming you mean Joseph (although, technically, God is Christ's father). Joseph was married. To Mary. So I'm pretty darn sure he wasn't a virgin.....

but this goes against the bible?

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he was after all human and as likely to give into urges as any of us!
Quote from: little_wilson on January 28, 2009, 02:22:31 AM
Um....Human, yes. Mortal? Half. Yes, he had urges that come with being mortal. He suppressed them. Hence why he is perfect.

nobody is perfect, on the cross he had his doubts etc, look to the dead sea scrolls, which are thought to predate most of the supposed bibles by the apoltles! they are older and show humanity!
even the apolstles admitted his humanity,

Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God (see Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17).  They believed that he was the son of God in the sense of a righteous person.  Many others too, are similarly called sons of God (see Matthew 23:1-9).
Paul, believed to be the author of some thirteen or fourteen letters in the Bible, also believed that Jesus is not God.  For Paul, God first created Jesus, then used Jesus as the agent by which to create the rest of creation (see Colossians 1:15 and 1 Corinthians 8:6).  Similar ideas are found in the letter to the Hebrews, and also in the Gospel and Letters of John composed some seventy years after Jesus.  In all of these writings, however, Jesus is still a creature of God and is therefore forever subservient to God (see 1 Corinthians 15:28).
In fact, John quotes Jesus as saying: “...the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28).

also have you ever heard of Council of Nicaea?

give that a look...
they decided there that jesus was going to be shown divine, and subsequently destroyed all works that showed his humanity!
including a number of unaccounted for years as a result of this destruction! what happened during those years?
did he marry have children etc? who knows! the church made sure we would never know! any heritage has been hidden and forgotten if ti exsists etc...

either way, you need to learn more of the way the world works and how the church is, i suggest you travel or something, you havent seen enough of the world to make the calls you are... you are believing what is set in front of you

your niaverty(sp?) is scary! that your male friends dont have sexual thoughts? ha. iv had sexual thoughts about every girl i know! i suppress them but most guys have had said thoughts! to say every guy you know doesnt... well thats just stupid, and again its likely due to the damn stigma about it!

guys want to procreate, procreation requires sex, we think about sex. end of!

and back to the story, i think it would of shown more humanity and depth to their relationship, i dont want to see them having sex etc, but knowing they were properly physically atracted to eachother wouldnt of taken away from the book! and would of made the relationship realistic!

13
Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« on: January 28, 2009, 01:50:08 AM »
Quote from: little_wilson on January 28, 2009, 01:25:35 AM
I doubt that anyone was saying that sex itself is a sin. It's not. Immorality is the sin, and immorality is the improper use of sex.

But this brings religion into the argument. Although, I personally don't think you can really talk about sex, and sexual thoughts without having religion brought up eventually....

i know i wrote the most on sex etc, however it was not my main point. I think they should of had some form of attraction sexualy towards eachother, They never had to act on it or we didnt have to hear about the sex scenes etc...
i just thought i would of liked something to shw a physical attraction other then a few what i felt to be impersonal and generalised remarks by Elend about her beauty or Vin when in MB3, mentions hse liked Elend before he was handsome and warriors body or something like that.

All i would of needed was a single thought, not inheritantly didty, something about as simple as the beauty of her eyes that i felt was believeable! This wasnt provided to me i feel!

As for what thsi topic has trned into, sex. I dont think religion has to be brought into it at all! i realise it will however.

nature dictates we have a mate, its rare in any life form for it to be totaly monogomous(sp?). (although i will admit in certain animals etc it is such)
It is even rare today in christian world to find people who in their whole lives have only slept wiht their husband or wife. Assuming they believe in such a marriage in first place!
 
i think that the reaso religion put out that this is a suposed sin was to stop the fighting between people. after all what is religions main purpose but to teach tolerance and give everyone a better and more fair life(opinion dont debate me on this).

Animals fight and kill over mates, even when they have others to "spare". so would man, as so many other religions practice!

Monogomy is something that although is main stream today wasnt always so!
The biggest and strongest person always got the girl as he would provide the better sons for the DNA to be passed on to put it bluntly!

The church imo say a need to stop the fighting and end bloodshed. This is why it became a sin. After all it isnt even in the ten commandments. a mix of that and the need to end the gluttonous lifestyle people had as it was getting out of control.

So its immoral to sleep with soemone to whom you are not wed? i disagree! I personally dont sleep around etc, however i have slept with past girl friends! does this make me immoral? even do i loved them?

My belief in the sancaty(sp?) of sex doesnt lie in religious belief or whether god will punish me etc(btw i do believe in god just amnt great at practing christian views)  my belife in this sancatity is more down to me thinking its something unique, and that i only want to share it with people i love!

but thats me! people who dont think like me, who am i to judge or say they have sinned?
nobody! as are you, the bibel was written with the sole reason to make god seem divine and tok all humanity out of it. do you think jesus never had sexual thoughts?

it also says nowhere if he had sex or not!
never once is he or his father called a virgin!
so christs father was a sinner? sure...
so christ was a potential sinner?
no!

he was after all human and as likely to give into urges as any of us!

my2cents





14
Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« on: January 28, 2009, 01:10:30 AM »
Quote from: Shaggy on January 28, 2009, 12:16:04 AM
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Cynewulf, to say that all interpersonal attraction is inevitably sexual in nature shows that you have bought into the lies of today's society.
Ookla, I totally get what you're saying. I actually mostly agree with you. But, just to play the devil's advocate here, can you really call them 'lies' of today's society? Isn't it just another, different way of life? What is a lie to you, may be a truth to the next man.

I like this line...

Hey firstly id like to say 1st post! :P
Big fan who reads these forums alot, but never posted, but this thread got to me!

Can you realy say thousands years of conditioning to seek out partners and procreate is part of todays society?

Its not at all, the only difference is now it is done in a more casual way, due to ability to prevent procreation, yet still satisfy the physical drive.

Im not terribly religious but come form a family that is, father trained to be a priest etc...

I dont understant the way people on this forum seem to treat "sex" do, it isnt a sin, its 100% natural. to assume that vin and elend wouldnt likely of slept together... well actually its believeable in their case because they are above the norm, but in a society where sex clearly has no value...

There is no church that vin knows of bar through sazed, and elends own "god" was ok with raping skaa once they were murdered after...

To assume it wasnt a pretty common thing in such a society is imo rediculous, in fact, i dont recall anywhere where Elend sys he regrets sleeping wiht her because he had sex wiht her, but rather it seems its only because she was killed for such an act(this might say he wudnt be to rushed into it again but the norm wudnt feel this way or of been exposed to it so).

The lack of attraction to me always bugged me, it seemed so... unreal! Now i rarely focused on it, but when its pointed out to em like in this thread its hard to ignore how outside the norm this all is!

My girlfriend who i love to bits etc,, i would almost think be offended if thought i wudnt think of her sexually, i damn well would be annoyed if she wasnt attracted to me that way!

Its not like one day you get married and discover all these sexual feelings, they are there all along, you can deny that you felt them for randomers all you want(i wont believe you), but to imply that you only have had sexual feelings for your partner and only since married is a blatant lie. You can even develop these feelings over time with an appreciation of a persons personality, but as we all know the more you "care" for someone the better they look in our eyes, again leading onto sexuality for those who think that way.

I myself dont look at girls and always thing "daaamn"
But id be talling lies to say i never have, and to deny such thoughts is to deny instints etc... after all thats more or less what religion teaches us, to control such instincts, not to deny we have them.

That we now believe sex to be so terrible is in itself a conditioning of todays society!
Jesus was born in the time of the romans, do you know what the romans got up to?
hell, go back to the renaissance, what happened there?

That sex is a sin is wrong i think, that it shouldnt be had frequently with randomers etc is again a conditioning!
(one i believe btw) but conditioning all the same!

We are all the product of some society, so who are you to realy judge any other? born dif place, diff timeyou wouldnt be the same person.

in summary, i think some people need to get over the idea that these thoughts are unnatural, else we wudnt be having them...
reality check states that vin and elend likely had these thoughts, or at least other characters would of! Even Sazed has a level of more attraction shown then Vin or Elend, and he cant have sex! their relationship is lacking!

That aside, i love this book, read the trilogy about 8 times so far, and even ordered all the books from america(cant buy them where im from)

muboop


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