Michael New. Skar?

[JP Dogberry]

So how do you describe those sniper incidents? Or those school shootings? They don't happen here. The gang shootings fairly recently are the ONLY example of anything remotely like that happening over here, and they were shooting other gang members, not civilians.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

All I said is that you're wrong in that they can't get it. Gang-bangers getting guns? That's hardly the professional killer type.

[Skar]

And you dont think that the people who really want to shoot at random people on the street are going to get guns anyway? Black Market anyone? Zip gun?

For that matter...  Two ton cadillac anyone? Poisoned blow dart?  Broadsword?  Guns really don't make it more likely for whackos to commit murder.  They're just  the first thing they think of.

[Entsuropi]

It is my pleasure to note that I possess no less than 2 melee weapons. If I truly wanted to kill someone, it wouldn't be much harder than sticking my tanto in a bag and then putting it through someones back.

Besides, we have violent crime here. Had a few black guys burst into a hairdressers and fill the air with Uzi fire. AFAIK, Uzi's have never been legal, and never will be.

[Archon]

Jeffe, your attempt to light me on fire is kind of laughable, mostly because my avatar is made of pure energy. And why did you try?

[JP Dogberry]

Actually, it looks like a guy on fire.

[Archon]

So if it is already on fire, what is the point of him trying to light it on fire?

[Master Xaio]

so they DO get guns.

I'd just like to point out a few things in relation to that.
- You have to get a gun liscence before you can get a gun
- To get a gun liscence requires special training
- You also need to have a good, and verifiable reason to have a gun
- Very few people actually possess guns
- To be able to get a hand-gun, or any type of automatic/semi-auto gun, is **extremely** hard
- All guns are registered
- All liscence holders are registered
- You have to wait for some period of time after getting a gun liscence before you can purchase/come into possession of a gun
- You have to pay a significant sum of money
- And I'm pretty sure you have to get it checked/renewed for veracity every now and then.

My point being, that guns are very strictly controlled in Australia.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

outkast, that adds ABSOLUTELY nothing to the debate. The fact is, you've got gang-bangers shooting at each other. They've got guns. So whatever controls you THINK you have, they're not as tight as you believe.

[Archon]

Outkast, think man. If you were a criminal and you were going to shoot somebody, would you want to do it with a REGISTERED handgun, when you could get one that wasn't? It has been repeatedly proven that unlicensed guns make their way into the hands of people that are usually going to do something bad with them. If you buy your gun out of an alleyway, they arent going to ask for an id or make you wait for a while first.

[Master Xaio]

You are both completely correct.  I doubt criminals are going to use a registered gun.  **However** what I'm trying to say is that it is a lot harder to get a gun.  Yes, we have a gang war in melbourne.  But remember, a gang is going to get a gun whether you have laws or not.  What I'm saying is that the general populace, and small time criminals **can't** easily get guns.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

see, maybe that's why we're confused. Here, gangs are punk kids. If punk kids are getting guns, it's not nearly so difficult as you think it is. These are not masterminds, they're idiots who think that people around them who encourage them to live in a culture of fear and violence are their family. Ie, they're not geniuses.

[House of Mustard]

Just to play Devil's Advocate (because, honestly, I doubt you'll many more staunch supporters of the second amendment on this site than me...)

There's no denying the fact that Australia has a gun-related homicide rate that is at least four times lower than the USA's  (some figures show it as much as nine times less).  And there are virtually NO cases of accidental gun-related death (kids shooting themselves with daddy's gun.)

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

oh, i'm not denying that. However, the guns CAN be gotten. By kids. If they try.

[House of Mustard]

True.  I also think it's funny that JP claims he doesn't have to worry about getting shot while he walks down the street, but openly talks about gang wars.