Timewaster's Guide Archive
Games => Role-Playing Games => Topic started by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on March 31, 2006, 11:57:50 AM
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Something's wrong with the site. I went to post the link to this thread and hte article's gone. What happened?
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I told you not to post that article, SE. I don't want to have this discussion on the forums.
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I thought you suggested. I thought it was my call. Am I the associate editor or not? Is this gonna be another Kid Killowatt thing?
I didn't make that stuff up.
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Don't make this into a personal attack. The article was not only poorly researched, it was completely inappropriate for this site. Let's just drop it.
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so you're saying that the subtle swastica mixed with the christian symbolism in the background of some of the pictures didn't mean anything?
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I'm saying that you're absolutely paranoid. WotC wouldn't put a swastika into a picture of a kobold.
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It's there! Have you even looked at it?
It's not like I"m proposing reptillian nazis ruling the world here (though I'm surprised they didn't with all the crap in here), but they made anyone vaguely religious out to be some psychotic fringe group bent on genocide. It's in the text.
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a) It's just a game.
b) We really don't need a fundamentalist Christian review of a roleplaying supplement. What is this, 1986?
c) The review wasn't even well-written. By the last paragraph you were just ranting. It was barely coherent.
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a) Sure it's just a game, but it's a patently offensive game product. It's design to carry out an agenda. An agenda I can't endorse.
b) that's offensive on so many levels I don't know where to start. I didn't make any claims about all RPGs being anti-religious. Just this one product. And it is.
c) gee thanks for the constructive criticism boss. Like this was worse written than your NaNo crap.
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We really don't need to make this into a big deal. The review was a pporly-written knee-jerk rant about paranoid religious fantasies. Not only that, it was the fifth such review you've submitted to me over the past two months. I've told you not to post them, I've offered some helpful writing advice over IM, and now you go over my head and abuse your authority as an editor. If you don't start to calm down, you will not have that authority much longer.
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::)
"I'll take my toys and go play somewhere else."
You're right. It doesn't have to be a big deal. I'm just writing reviews that look at what's actually in the book. You're name calling and derrogatory descriptions of what I'm bringing out of the texts doesn't do a whole lot to push your point of view.
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You want me to push my point of view? Here's some evidence: you speculate that the author is actually a wiccan priest; you made a huge chart comparing the dragon species to the 12 apostles; you called the book a "training manual for slaves of the Illuminati conspiracy." And then, in your concluding paragraph, you just shouted some slogans and said "Brian Michael Bendis sucks." Honestly, where did that even come from?
I poor my heart and soul into this website, SE, and I'm sick of you treating it like your own little playhouse. You post articles late, you fill the forums with senseless crap nobody wants to hear, and you won't shut up about your freaking ninja monkeys. Give it up already! Nobody cares about your freaking ninja monkeys.
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yah, you've "poored" a lot in. That's why I've written more content, pay more attention to the forums, and do something besides show up once a week to update a lame poll. Sprig codes, Tage looks at the code, and I manage content. You sit on your butt and collect google money.
You're taking my quotes out of context, and you know it. I didn't say "illuminati" except to point out that this was the one group they weren't trying to defame.
And even you have to admit that the dragon chart was pretty insightful. I admitted that was speculation, but it was very convincing.
and the girls like my ninja monkeys. They bring them up more often than I do.
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You two really should move this to another place of discussion besides the forum.
Don't want members to start taking sides before you two have a chance to sort things out first.
I would lock this thread, but I think it would accomplish very little simce you both could unlock it.
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actually, I want the members choosing sides. Aren't we interest in disparate points of view? If anyone hates my review, we can print a second review. I'm writing these from the pont of view of how they affect me, and Fell is just deleting them.
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I knew you were going to bring up the google money--you just won't let that go. I told you you're not seeing a penny of it until you clean up your act, and I'm sticking by that. And by "clean up your act," I mean "no more articles that make Jack Chick look sane and reasonable."
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No, I think you want to feel validated.
And if people validate Fell instead of you, you'll be offended.
You seem very defensive of your opinion at the moment, as is Fell.
Hence, people have you to choose one or the other which could have some seriously bad ripple effects.
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So this thread has got me curious for independent validation. Since I don't own Races of the Dragon, I had to content myself with looking for either Nazi or Christian imagery in the online art gallery at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20060105a&page=1.
I looked at every image, and I can't find any. E, could you point out which ones have the imagery you're referring to so I can check for myself? Thanks.
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some of us don't see much difference there, 42, you're picking at nits. I'm all over being validated. We all know my ego's that big. But if I'm completely unvalidated, then I guess it's not what people want. I don't see how people posting their opinion is a *bad* thing.
anyway, the money, that was never a "condition" on it before. I work harder here than you. I deserve a cut for the traffic my work generates.
Even if we take your derogatory terms as factual instead of just inflamatory, does that matter? The crazy man attracts traffic. That's the point of a web site isn't it?
But here I am expressing a view that you disagree with. You use money over my head to shut me up. Score one for open-minded gamers. (that was sarcasm)
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The enworld reviews weren't kidding about the art being bad.
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M, the gallery has slightly different versions of the pictures than actually show up in the book. this one (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rodragon_gallery/94132.jpg) for example, has a lot of changes to the line art. If you look closely, you can even see where they didn't do such a good job cleaning it up. In addition, most of the spellscale faces are revealing when juxtaposed with the text accompanying them.
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Deleting posts willy nilly is just silly. ;D Even for the head editor of the site to do so is a little over the line. Especially when, from the evidence in Fell's posts, it's because he has something personal against E. I could understand it if Spriggan was doing it but I don't expect that kind of pig-ignorant behavior from Fell.
I only got a chance to read a couple of paragraphs of that article before killed it and it wasn't nearly as much of a "rant" as he makes it out to be.
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I remain neutral in this. Conflicts of interest and all.
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selling your soul more like it!
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M, the gallery has slightly different versions of the pictures than actually show up in the book.
Would it violate copyright to scan one in and compare it for reference? I'm guessing not since (a) you're not selling it, (b) you're still giving credit, and (c) it's for sort-of academic purposes. (Okay, so "academic" probably doesn't fit, but I don't know what does.)
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Yeah. Let's see some of these pictures.
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I will do that when I can get to one. I'll try to stop by my in-laws tonight.
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I wish it was a joke. I've been dealing with this crap for weeks in email and IM, and now I thought that maybe if I brought it to a public forum it would calm him down; obviously it didn't.
Let's look at some of the text in the review:
The next thing to consider is the memes present in the kobold section. Nobody in their right mind could read this without seeing the obvious parallels to the Saul/Paul dichotomy, which is practically point for point up until it all goes sour and starts present Paul as a crazed deceiver and tyrant. In the way they structure Kobold society they argue that Saul was the better half, and that denying the presence of Christ in our lives is the rational choice.
I admit that I haven't read the book, but come on. Don't you think that was a little over the top?
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Wait. Why isn't SE getting money? I got a cut, and I write, like, what? Three times a year?
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I don't see what's so crazy about that. They make the kobolds this master race serving "The serpent" (dragons, but often called "serpents"). the entire Day in the life section hints at that, then psychology, kobold life, and culture sections carry it out. It's practically a treatise. Don't even get me started about the Kurtulmak (an anagram for "Kalmuk Rut" -- Kalmuk is an archaic form of "Kalmyk," a region of mongolia under Russian control populated by buddhists. The worship of Kurtulmak at times is described as satanic rites and at other times buddhist idolatry. It conflates satanism and buddhism, attempting to make both look like anti-intellectual fools.
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selling your soul more like it!
Watch it, SE. That wasn't very nice to say. At least *I'm* doing what I set out to do.
Besides, why fight about it, guys? There has to be something else to review.
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Yes, I know your stupid logic behind it, because I read it. I'm the one who told you it made you sound like a lunatic, remember?
You know what? Forget it. You're fired. No more editor SE, no more mod privileges, just no more.
And Skar, you watch yourself. I'm in a bad mood.
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I admit that I haven't read the book, but come on. Don't you think that was a little over the top?
Does the article include text quoted from the book itself as evidence, or is it one of those things where you have to read an entire section (of the book) and then look for the common themes running throughout? For example, what exactly gives the impression of a Saul/Paul dichotomy, and what brings to mind that comparison instead of others?
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Stacy, that hurts. THat really hurts.
And forget you Fell. You're not going to drive me off, but now you don't have anyone to do your work for you. See if I prod Jeffe to write his articles.
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Wasn't the google money designated for buying review material, to be sent to the most appropriate reviewer?
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The worship of Kurtulmak at times is described as satanic rites and at other times buddhist idolatry. It conflates satanism and buddhism, attempting to make both look like anti-intellectual fools.
Does it actually use the terms "buddhist" and "satanism"?
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Yeah, like that's a big threat.
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little examples seem just incidental. and if it were simply that, I probably would have left it alone. But when those examples repeat frequently, and reveal a common theme, you have to stand up and take notice.
The comparison of Saul is quite clear, the crusade against gnomes (degraded sorcery -- which implies dragon descent), the strict lifestyle, the visionary experience from the "good" deity (Bahamut), and then that's where it parts.
It's not just kobolds either. Most of the dragon gods section is seeded with anti-christian and anti-religious ideas, the least of which is trusting in a deity as capricious as any dragon would be.
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Wow, look what happens when I got get haircuts?
SE, when you asked me to read this the other day I told you there was no way that Fell would let you post it.
I still think firing SE was a little knee-jerk though Fell. Couldn't we just have a public flogging instead and keep the guy who actually posts articles?
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Wasn't the google money designated for buying review material, to be sent to the most appropriate reviewer?
Not sure yet, no review materials have been bought with said Google money.
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Does it actually use the terms "buddhist" and "satanism"?
yep.
edit: sorry, I ment to say SE's article did but the book didn't.
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Im sure Im going to be attacked because Im a friend of Eric, but this is a little out of line don't you think. Both of you have been incredibly personal in your attacks and thats not even a little bit cool. Especially given how much work you two have put into the site.
I mean we ask people to write interesting and different reviews. The question we should be asking is who if anyone this would offend. Id like to think most people here could read a review without freaking out. At least something controversial would spawn some discussion.
So whats the stumbling block? Fell is it a question of just poor research? What is it you dont like? Also why is a fundimentalist approach bad per se? What could Saint do to improve it?
Saint? Is there the chance that something you wrote was offensive? If so, could you tone that down, or barring that support it to such a degree that you dont offend. Attacking Fell over money wont make it better. (Though I do understand your frustration, Im tired of buying books to review with my money, it hurts the quality of my reviews, because Im less likely to buy stuff I wouldnt normally play, heck I miss getting free stuff)
Fell, I hate to weigh in on the topic (E being my friend and all) but I feel like posting parts of an article out of context isnt fair. Also airing private baggage in public isnt a good way to calm anyone down.
E, this may piss you off but your being kind of confrontational, take a deep breath for me buddy and try to relax OK. This doesnt have to be resolved in a mean way.
/me sits back and waits for the attacks
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Firing Eric was pretty premature since he seems to be one of the few mods who does post things. He also works his butt off for the site.
If you guys are in a bad mood, get out of each others faces for now.
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Listen guys. This has been going on for a while now. SE has been getting quite crazy in his reviews as of late, and I know he won't be happy about me saying this but do you all know why there hasn't been an article from him in over a month? It's because Fell hasn't let him post anything due to all this ranting and raving crap. You should have read the last page #33 that SE wrote about how if Superman, who in SE"s argument is a symbol of Christ, isn't your favorite superhero then you should burn in hell. That's when Fell axed the article series.
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It's certainly not due to a lack of research, Jeffe, just grossly misguided research. Paranoid conspiracy websites are simply not a good place to go for reasoned, rational thought, especially if you're trying to prove something as preposterous as this.
There's also a strong element of just plain bad writing:
As mentioned above, I can't help but conclude from this vast array of evidence that Wizards of the Coast is not only anti-Christian, but anti-religious and anti-human. Sure, bow down to your lizard overlords! See if I care! When the great day comes and the saurians are cleansed from the bowels of the Earth, then we'll see who's laughing! Angels, that's who. Also, screw Brian Michael Bendis.
I agree with you, Jeffe, that bringing these quotes out of context is not the ideal situation, but I want to keep as much of it hidden as I can. It's just not worth comprimising the good name of TWG.
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What's so crazy about him being a christ figure? He's made by jewish guys, he's the extra terrestrial being with amazing powers because of his parentage, etc, etc.
And what I really said was that you must hate god if you hate Superman. Because that's probably true.
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None of this is answering my question. How exactly was the money divied up? I know Spriggan got some. Tage and Fell and I all went to lunch to celebrate our first "payday". Did anyone else get any? I'm more than willing to payback what I got, if there's someone more deserving.
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Superman as the Messiah is a really common theme... really common, in fact its kind of the raging debate for the new trailor, when they same he came to save all of us.... as for the rest, I took that as a joke.
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No mustard, we're going by people who started with TWG the website and have supported Fell all these years. Since you wrote one of the first articles this is considered "back pay" for all those years.
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which would mean skar should get the first, and I the second. but you can guess how soon that'll happen.
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I was told Skar didn't want any until the summer movie season and you left after your article so there was no "support" for fell and twg like I mentioned.
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The money is beside the point--I will use it as I see fit. I'm in firing mood today, thanks to SE being a twit, so nobody cross me.
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the money is part of the larger issue, though. You fascist!
anyway, I forgot that we had a scanner here at work. So I scanned in the two most damning pictures.
One from the spellscale section (http://www.saintehlers.com/misc/images/twg/hitlerscale.jpg). The spellscales were portrayed much like modern Christians.
This was the picture mentioned in the thread above (http://www.saintehlers.com/misc/images/twg/nazikobold.jpg)
I think my case is pretty clear.
Do you all understand what's going on now?
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Those pictures prove nothing--there's no symbolism in either one that would suggest a religious connection, good or bad.
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I thumb my nose at you sir. You are obviously a nazi who hates god.
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I'm sick of both of you. E for being a reactionary wacko who jumps all over me but then goes on to use paint, FRIGGIN PAINT for heavens sake to paste a pentagram into a line drawing and try to make an intellectual point. Maybe his alternate personalities did it while he was asleep (which is most of the time I'm told) either way he needs real help. Maybe instead of smearing him here on the board we should be calling his wife and warning her that he's having an "episode"
And Fell for being a tinpot dictator, you know what they say about power corrupting... Fell, I thumb my nose at you and fart in your general direction. Fire away you little punk. You're lucky this is on the internet and not face to face or I'd make you back your attitude up with your fists.
>:(
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and note that he's a swirling melee of death.
In my own defense, I didn't use paint. I just only used tools only available in paint. Paint couldn't pull off the hitler bit. Nor could it save as a jpg, as far as I know.
I'm disappoint in Skar for not holding out till he saw my actual chart. Now I"ll have to make one.
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Wait... you faked the hitler one too?
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Skar, you're fired too. I'm sick of your crap.
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/me fires everyone and sells the domain to Jack Chick.
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Pppppthpppthpppth! Still posting!
I don't think you'll be able to rope Tage, who's a reasonable person if you can get past the body odor, into your little cabal and you're not swift enough in the brains department to do anything real to my account yourself.
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/me constructs an elaborate plot, involving all the girls, cuz they think this is still going on.
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well you havent exactly come out and sprung the "supplies" yet.
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oooh, you meanies! You'd *better* not be doing what Jena and I think you're doing!
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Yep. It was pretty mean. Funny, but mean.
(Man am I having a laugh going back to the beginning and re-reading the posts...)
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I love you guys.
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but they are still fired right?
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fired in the sense of ready and rarin to go!
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Wait... does this mean I'm really not fired?
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if your asking "Was this an elaborate early april fools day hoax?" then the answer is yes.
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you have to try harder than that to get fired around here, Skar. We're desperate.
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Thank Heaven. I was dreading having to move into a smaller house when the Google money dried up.
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Hahahaha. I had quite the hearty chuckle about this thread. I was semi-convinced that it was real at the beginning, but once it started getting to the "bow down to your lizard overlords" part I started laughing uncontrollably. Good work comrades, you've made one of your website lurkers happy.
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*shakes head* Okay, you had me up until the scanned images. *chuckle* Good one, guys. I salute your creativity.
Incidentally, tomorrow my wife and I are going to be sending our parents faked pregnancy test photos. Anyone want to start placing bets on their reactions? My parents know me well enough they'll probably see through it, but my wife's...well...let's just say they fell for the one two years ago that used The One Ring as an engagement ring. (This was back when we were dating)
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wasnt much of a joke though... you are in fact married now. And all because you tampered with a power you dont understand.
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bwahahahaha
take pictures of THEM and send them to us.
Mister M, you were making me so mad. I was convinced you were just playing it straight by being so calm. so I guess you got me too. I had to start making stuff up left and right because of you.
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Yeah, Mr. M, I was sure you'd figured it out and were just playing along. Well done.
And that's an awesome idea bout the pregancy test. Make sure to tell us how it goes.
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Mister M, you were making me so mad. I was convinced you were just playing it straight by being so calm. so I guess you got me too. I had to start making stuff up left and right because of you.
No, that was just the scientist in me coming out: when in doubt, look at the evidence. :)
And as for The One Ring, yeah, I probably should have been more careful about meddling with such things. Having to explain the joke to friends and family about half a dozen times is what actually got me thinking "You know, it wouldn't be so bad if it were true..."
Maybe if we'd used a CTR ring instead... ;)
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"Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others."
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I don't suppose someone can let me see the article? I totally slept through it all.
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just like an austrailian
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so does this mean I no longer get to be an admin?
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Yes this is so like D&D! They will brainwash you into buying all of their books with tactics such as power creep, errata, compendiums, version/edition updates... !!! I just realised, the polymorph errata! My god, this really is a conspiracy, which is likened to a holocaust of gamers to their demonic gods in their demand of mass sacrifice for cold hard cash. Good find E, this is what a few gamers such as myself have suspected all along.
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You guys made my day.
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Guys, I'm afraid that I might have uncovered more evidence of this grand coverup. As I have come to understand, the Wizards of the Coast is actually an Illuminati cabal which is part of a world-wide conspiracy to create the NWO. I will try to congeal some of the knowledge and clues to this cabal here.
First off I must point you to the release of "Races of Destiny". As you might guess, this is about those who are destined to rule the world. The new race put into this book is, ahem, the "Illumian". This is a race powered by words and Shadow magic. You might also wonder why they post secrets in their books, but as we have discussed before (I believe in the Jack Chick thread), they recruit and teach new members using "Rules Mastery". Those who fail to achieve Rules Mastery are then to be sacrificed to appease their gods. And as you read the book, it is only too clear to see what is being taught via their secret codes.
"A Day In the Life" clearly shows how to go about constructing your own secret Cabal of would-be Illuminati. This is further detailed on page 60 under "Cabal Structure", which tells us that the Cabal is led by a "Black Table". Now I need not remind you where the rpg takes place. Of course, the "Ritutal of the Word Made Flesh" goes into symbolic detail of how they plan to use Shadow Magic to transform into their master race... and even further, using "Ascention Cabals" to achieve Godhood, which they claim the founding Illuminati has already done. Of course they detail many type of Cabals, set up independantly like some type of cell network. I quote:
"Chain cabals are one of the two most common kinds of Illumi[nati] cabal (gauntlet cabals are the other). Chain cabals pride themselves on their top-notch spy networks, which infiltrate nearby power centers such as governments, churches," So as we can see, this is all part of their plan. Yes, they WILL go to Church, pretend to be one of you. Work in your schools, in your government, but we are starting to uncover the truth of their ploys. Gauntlet Cabals serve much the same purpose, but use "a combination of diplomacy, magic, and trickery to exert influence on the policical and religious leaders" (pg 65).
Now I will point you to their latest release, "Tome of Magic: Pact, Shadow, Truename". Finally we see the D&D game move away from the old "Vance" (eg Vatican) system, to those employed by that well-known Illuminati cabal, Wizards of the Coast. Here we are further introduced to "Shadow Magic", which as Races of Destiny has shown us, is the way which the Illuminati use words not only for magic power, but to transform themselves into the master race. Truename magic reveals why they are obsessed with names and words, as we are shown how they can be used to gain power over both friend and enemy.
Pact magic is perhaps the most vile, most frightful part of this book. This helps unlock the use and mysteries of the Goetia. This is part of of a grimoire (spellbook) called the Lesser Key of Solomon. Pact Magic informs the D&D player on the use of Seals to summon spirits and demons. The Goetia itself contains 72 such Seals with descriptions of the demons they can summon. The first english translation of the Goetia was done by none other than Aleister Crowley. Looking through the list of demons, many D&D players will also recognize many names, as they are used (or variations thereof) in many many RPGS.
Any who have the Tome of Magic best get rid of it, for when the Illuminati summon up these wicked and powerful demons, only those with Rules Mastery will hope to live (as they have planned). All other gamers will be taken by the demons in a mass sacrifice, which was promised to them by the Wizards of the Coast cabal in exchange for teaching them Shadow Magic (which as abovementioned they use in attempt to attain Godhood).
We could go into more detail, and the TRUE meaning behind the widespread sweep of the Polymorph errata. But hopefully this is enough to give a glimpse in what is really going on.
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Speaking of reviews, I'd love to do one, but would prefer to do one of a D&D book that has yet to be reviewed. Any suggestions? Untill I get things straightened out with SJ games and fill in the holes in my demo sets, I'm doing wizards reviews.
Oh, and the google ads I'm viewing are for the stock market. Go Illuminadi!
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well first off check the review database and see what we have and don't have. I can tell you we were spotty the last half of 2005 due to not getting review materials, so fine one released in that time frame then search for it by title in our reviews to see if we've got it.
We sometimes allow second, or even third, reviews of the same item if the review is significantly different from the one(s) we already have. Ie you really, really, hated a book that we gave a good score to or vice versa.
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Thanks. Do I get extra credit if the review comes pre edited? ;D
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no, but you won't hear me whine about it.
wow, Eagle. That is just SO much more detail than I ever made up. We were just making stuff up as we went along.
just fyi, for those of you who've still missed it, there *never* was an article.
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Update on the fake pregnancy test: My parents saw right through it (well my Dad did, and my Mom guessed what we'd done before she even saw the email); they just know me too well. My wife's family, however, got taken in hook, line, and sinker. We let my mother-in-law go on congratulating us for about a minute before we finally broke the joke to her.
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You know, the site april fools day joke might have been funnier if I'd seen this thread first...
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You're therefore saying it wasn't funny?
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Given that this thread was the joke, I can understand that perspective fully.