The Vagaries of University Bureaucracy (re: TLE)

[Jelly_Belly]

First of all, to Nessa, we talked to BYU about getting donations and they are really strict on how it works.
As long as we are through BYU, we could not ask people directly for donations. We'd have to get on a list and possibly get some that way, but no way would we be able to get $80,000. If we continue down the road we're on, then we could accept direct donations such as this, but then we run into the issue of finding someone who can do donate that much (or a combination of people). If we could do that, that'd be great. I have actually thought about this myself. What we need is some really rich person who loves to donate to stuff give us the money, but it takes time to find such who is willing to donate a good chunk. If you have an idea, let us know.

To E, I understand your complaint and if I thought that me not being an editor would at all affect the English department's decision, I would gladly step down. I thought that that is how it worked: you could only be a named position if you were a student. I talked about it with the staff and all believed that this wasn't the case and that I should be editor. If there were students who were ready and willing to be editor to the magazine, I would have gladly given them the chance, but at the time the longest any student had been there who wanted to be an editor was about 4 months. So I figured that my experience on the magazine would be helpful at the time when we had a lot of young members. As I said, Linda Adams agreed with me and I value her opinion. That is why I stayed on.

The long and short of it is that it would not have made a bit of difference to the English department. Matt, who has done all the correspondence with the English department, agreed that me stepping down and the magazine only being run by students wouldn't have changed anything. Now that it is going away from BYU, I don't see any point in stepping down now. Especially since I'll only be on the magazine for one more issue. If you have a better reason for me to do so now, let me know, but I can't think of one.

Again, if I thought it would've made a difference, I wouldn't have become editor or I would have gladly stepped down when I heard of the English department's complaints. This wasn't the case and so I didn't.

I could be wrong, but it sounded to me like the English Department is making all the excuses they can to get rid of us. They always throw a fit about having the sci-fi and fantasy writing class (claiming there aren't enough people interested even though the class is always full) and without a strong faculty member fighting for sci-fi and fantasy, such as Sally or Doc Smith, we're pretty much sunk. What can I tell you?

If you call the English department and they say they will take us back if we have only students working on the magazine, I'll step down. I'm serious. I care more about TLE than I do about me getting experience.

[Jelly_Belly]

Ya especially since now she's wanting to get paid to be said editor.  Reeks of scandal to me.

And no, I don't want to get paid to work there. Matt was trying to get student paid positions when all this happened. That's all. Since I wasn't a student at the time, it didn't affect me, but there are other magazines that do have student paid editor positions and he thought it would be cool to have that as well, since he was spending 10 to 15 hours a week doing stuff for the magazine. I was all for it cause I figured this would help him so he wouldn't be working on the magazine and having a 20-hour student job. So he looked into it, but instead found out that they were planning on getting rid of us.

And again, if there had been students ready to take over as editor, I would have gladly done that so they could have experience. Even right now we only have two editors because we don't have anyone in the position to be an editor. Most are not staying for spring/summer, but are going home, so we don't even have a third person to be an editor that is a student.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I'm just being clear here: it was not a complaint I made, just a suggestion. I personally don't think you need to justify yourself.

but if you remove all their excuses for cutting TLE loose, then they have to take you back.

Let's face it very few amateur publications make it in the world. That's why it was great to have TLE as a BYU magazine -- it didn't *have* to make money.

[Jelly_Belly]

To address this comment: "but if you remove all their excuses for cutting TLE loose, then they have to take you back." If I understand correctly, then this isn't necessarily true. If these are really concerns, then that could be the case. If they are just excuses to get rid of us, they would not take us back no matter.

And there will always be the concern of money. If we are not with BYU we can get donations to pay. If we are with BYU, we have to get on a list and hope for donations and that would not be good enough for the English department.

Then there is the concern of faculty time. They don't want to have to have a faculty member to be our advisor. How do we get around that? If they took us back, they would have to give us an advisor again, which they don't want to do.

With my above comments, I was just explaining the situation so everyone could understand what was going on. I was not trying to "justify" it. I thought it was a valid suggestion and I just wanted to address it so that those who love TLE and don't want to see it go away from BYU (which I agree that it would be awesome to stay there) could understand what was going on with it. Sorry if it came across any other way.

[Nessa]

We'd have to get on a list and possibly get some that way, but no way would we be able to get $80,000. If we continue down the road we're on, then we could accept direct donations such as this, but then we run into the issue of finding someone who can do donate that much (or a combination of people). If we could do that, that'd be great. I have actually thought about this myself. What we need is some really rich person who loves to donate to stuff give us the money, but it takes time to find such who is willing to donate a good chunk. If you have an idea, let us know.

I was saying that 80K was the ideal amount. You don't have to start with that much. I don't know what BYU's minimum is, but it's usual for there to be a minimum, usually somewhere around 20K-25K. If TLE could start with a minimum amount, a least TLE would have its foot in the door funding-wise, and could build up from there.

[Jelly_Belly]

I agree. I think that would be wonderful. I can give you contact info for Matt Gibbons if you would like to talk with him about it. He will be the one taking over the magazine when it's released from BYU, so he'd be the best one to talk to about this (if you are interested in discussing that with him, that is).

[Nessa]

Certainly. Email me.

[Skar]

I think trying to move to UVSC sounds like the best suggestion so far.  My experience at BYU was that the faculty strained every fiber of their being to toe the academic party line as closely as they could within the limits that kept them their jobs because they felt that they lost a lot of personal credibility in the world of academia because they were at a "religious" university.  Intolerance of ideas that don't have immediate credence at other prestigious universities is a direct result of their overcompensation.  This attitude slops directly onto TLE as an SF focused magazine.  BYU lost site of what it really means to be an institution of higher learning and turned into a grant grubbing academic propoganda mill long before I graduated.  

I don't think you'll find that kind of blinkered piggishness at UVSC.  Has anyone contacted them?

[42]

I'm thinking about starting up a publication at UVSC this summer. I can probably do some research into the viability of TLE moving to UVSC. Though you have to remember that UVSC is the most underfunded institute of higher learning in Utah.

I would stil strongly consider looking at other colleges at BYU. Most colleges get more funding than the Humanities college (except for the College of Fine Arts). And I mean a lot more, when my sister worked for BYU's accounting office she said that the Marriot School something like 80 times the funding of the School of Family and Social Science, even though social science majors vastly outnumber business majors. The engineering college can purchase million dollar computer, use it once, and then not think of it ever again without it bothering them. So what would 4k a year magazine cost them, other then giving students experience they couldn't get anywhere else and promote the exploration of scientific speculation.

[Eric James Stone]

UVSC already has a SF&F magazine, Warp & Weave.  Their forthcoming issue actually has a (rejected by TLE) story in it by yours truly.  It's a non-paying market, so I doubt UVSC is likely to fund a 1-cent/word spec-fic magazine transferring from BYU.

I think the best option (outside of finding another BYU connection) is to incorporate TLE as a 501(c)(3) non-profit, so it can accept tax-deductible donations.  If they decide to take that course, I've already offered to donate $1000 up front, and then to match donations dollar for dollar for the next $1000.  That would provide the operating funds to keep TLE going for another year after they lose BYU support.

Of course, if sufficient money could be raised to create an endowment that would fund operations, that would be great.  The tax-deductibility of donations would be an important part of that.

[blcdrayco]

Please send me contact information for Matt- if the actuall minimum really is 20-25k then I really would like to look into it.  But only if all else fails.

[Skar]

UVSC already has a SF&F magazine, Warp & Weave.  Their forthcoming issue actually has a (rejected by TLE) story in it by yours truly.  It's a non-paying market, so I doubt UVSC is likely to fund a 1-cent/word spec-fic magazine transferring from BYU.

Dang it.

[Nessa]

Yeah, I'll be contacting Matt about an endowment. My father-in-law is a certified financial planner, so we can probably get some help from him--at the very least he'll be good for information.

An endowment would be self-perpetuating, so TLE won't run out of funds for a long time, verses a few thousand dollars gets eaten up pretty quick. And, of course, I'll look into tax exemptions for endowment donors (because I would want to donate myself, as well).

What I'm wondering is, if TLE can pay for itself, what other reasons would BYU have for getting rid of them? (Besides faculty involvement.) Isn't that the biggest issue?

[stacer]

I think the biggest issue is that BYU's faculty doesn't see science fiction/fantasy as a legitimate academic pursuit.

[Jelly_Belly]

Yeah, I'll be contacting Matt about an endowment. My father-in-law is a certified financial planner, so we can probably get some help from him--at the very least he'll be good for information.

An endowment would be self-perpetuating, so TLE won't run out of funds for a long time, verses a few thousand dollars gets eaten up pretty quick. And, of course, I'll look into tax exemptions for endowment donors (because I would want to donate myself, as well).

What I'm wondering is, if TLE can pay for itself, what other reasons would BYU have for getting rid of them? (Besides faculty involvement.) Isn't that the biggest issue?

If we did have an endowment so that we were getting money to pay for TLE, then it would pretty much feel like it has. It would still be at the HumPub (with some sort of rent being paid to Mel Thorne, but not much since he wanted to let us use the place for free, but the English Department wouldn't let him). We'd still have student volunteers working the magazine, and they would still get internship credit for doing so. I'm sure that Matt would be working towards making the magazine get a larger number of subscriptions and since he would own the magazine, he would want it to be profitable so that he was getting something back for his time (probably not a lot, but just some sort of compensation since he would be putting a lot more time in than any previous editor ever has). He would probably only be a main editor for 2 or 3 issues and then mainly be an advisor, allowing students to move through the ranks of TLE just as they have in the past. So really, it might not be as big of a change as it may seem right now. Matt is just committed to keeping TLE alive and keeping it a student publication.